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larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1764 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Dec. 04 2005, 06:06 Quote (Alan D @ Nov. 30 2005, 10:42) [/quote]There are several meanings for the word 'criticism', and in the sense in which we're using it here it means 'the art of evaluating or analyzing works of art or literature'. There's no implication in that definition that the evaluation will be negative. In fact in my experience, the only criticism that's usually of any value is the kind that says 'hey, this is good, and here's why'; or 'look at this in this way and you might get more out of it'; or that tells me some useful background information. I think the word "criticism" has a broader meaning. I think there's space even for the kind of criticism that goes outside the definition you mention (and what do you mean with "..in the sense which we're using it here"?). To cut a long story short I don't think there's much point in trying to narrow down the discussion. All discussion here is reasonable and interesting. There are exceptions, but  pointing it out will just fan the flames. Actually I love this forum. It's the only place on the net I visit everyday! Lars T -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Dec. 04 2005, 07:06 Quote (larstangmark @ Dec. 04 2005, 11:06) I think the word "criticism" has a broader meaning. I think there's space even for the kind of criticism that goes outside the definition you mention (and what do you mean with "..in the sense which we're using it here"?). Actually I think that was a poor post I wrote, back there - not very clear and not well thought-out. I was trying to point out (but got in a muddle about what I was really saying) that we need to be careful about the word 'criticism', because it has several meanings; and when different people use the word they're quite likely to misunderstand what others are meaning by it. Here's a dictionary definition of the two meanings. 1: the act of criticizing, usually unfavorably 2: the art of evaluating or analyzing works of art or literature In everyday use (no.1), 'criticism' usually involves negative comment such as 'You were impolite' or 'you have poor taste' etc. But when the word is used in connection with art (no.2), there's no such negative implication. Criticism is an assessment, and the outcome could be positive or negative. So when someone speaks of 'critical comment', we need to know in what sense they're using it, or we simply won't understand each other. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1764 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Dec. 04 2005, 12:25 Quote (Alan D @ Dec. 04 2005, 07:06) So when someone speaks of 'critical comment', we need to know in what sense they're using it, or we simply won't understand each other. I agree totally. But the dictionary's second meaning (analysis etc.) may involve being hard on the artist and his work. When it comes to art and music, analysis and criticism isn't neceserily objective or methodologically correctly executed. Some of the (IMO) best writing on rock music is downright cruel to the artists, but full of insight. But I was talking more about having a "critical" perspective. Like if you're interested in UFOs, you can either have a critical view on the subject, being careful with beliving what you read and hear. Or you could be "pro-UFO", which is where you can end up if you listen too much to the fanatics who are "spreading the gospel". Another thing; In the case of Mike, it seems his private life affects his music a lot. His isolation on the Beacon brought us Hergest Ridge. His Exegesis course brought us Exposed/Platinum era Mike. His partying on Ibiza brought us TBIII. Therefore I don't think it's irrelevant to discuss his private life either. There's no poing in bringing out all filthy details either of course... but the man *is* a rockstar! Lars T -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Dec. 04 2005, 13:03 Quote (larstangmark @ Dec. 04 2005, 17:25) the dictionary's second meaning (analysis etc.) may involve being hard on the artist and his work. Indeed it may, and it often does, and this is the danger zone. As I've said before, the history of criticism is littered with situations where so-called 'bad work' has been slammed by critics who were just too ignorant and insensitive to see its merits - and often the only effect has been to demoralise the artist. My point is that the critic has a responsibility to tread carefully. If he thinks the work is bad, he needs to explain why very carefully, and with due appreciation that he may be entirely missing the point of the artist's work. Humility (in the sense of understanding one's own limitations) is an essential quality in a critic, but I rarely find it. Strange really: the opinions of critics fade, and are either forgotten or derided by posterity; while surprisingly often the art that they so vociferously failed to understand lives on. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1764 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: Dec. 04 2005, 15:19 Quote (Alan D @ Dec. 04 2005, 13:03) My point is that the critic has a responsibility to tread carefully. If he thinks the work is bad, he needs to explain why very carefully, and with due appreciation that he may be entirely missing the point of the artist's work. Go tell today's rock journalists. Most rock writers these days piss all over an album before they've even heard it. Basically most rock critics are more interested fashion than in music, which means that most of the time they're just making a comment of how well (or not) an album fits into today's "climate", which in turns determines how "relevant" an album is. I wonder if there's a rock critic school somewhere where the students are brainwashed to hate "raincoat music". The hatred (as opposed to dislike) towards prog and "hippiedom" lingers. As a consequence, a lot of people miss out on some really good music. Lars T -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Dec. 04 2005, 17:22 Quote (larstangmark @ Dec. 04 2005, 20:19) most of the time they're just making a comment of how well (or not) an album fits into today's "climate", which in turns determines how "relevant" an album is. Mmmm. Pointless, I agree. And as you say, counterproductive. You were right to point out the third meaning of 'critical' by the way, though I didn't want to lose the gist of what I was saying by diverting to it, in my last post. In terms of a general guide to living, yes, we need to be 'critical' in that sense. But even here we have to be careful when we approach art. If I'm going to get properly 'into' the music, I do have to open myself to it. If I approach it with preconceived ideas about what is 'good', and the music is attempting something radically new, I may miss the new thing altogether. So at some stage, I think I do have to surrender to the art as an act of faith - give it the benefit of the doubt. Of course afterwards, if the act of faith isn't rewarded, then I may conclude the music is bad in some way; but if I approach in the first instance with the primary aim of judging it rather than accepting it, then I will undoubtedly miss anything new and good it has to offer. Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Dec. 04 2005, 18:27 Quote (larstangmark @ Dec. 04 2005, 17:25) In the case of Mike, it seems his private life affects his music a lot. His isolation on the Beacon brought us Hergest Ridge. His Exegesis course brought us Exposed/Platinum era Mike. His partying on Ibiza brought us TBIII. Therefore I don't think it's irrelevant to discuss his private life either. There's no poing in bringing out all filthy details either of course... but the man *is* a rockstar! Lars T Yes I agree a musician's private life can affect his or her music. If Mike hadn't moved to The Beacon would he have written  and released Hergest Ridge. I don't think so, Mike wouldn't  have written HR in his Tottenham flat.  Every time I play HR I feel as if I'm transported back to the fantastic countryside of  The Beacon/The Ridge . So much so that I've decided that I MUST make it a regular thing , at least annually. What however I do NOT wish to see are vitriolic personal attacks on Mike, they are unwarranted and uncalled for. -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Dec. 05 2005, 03:07 I think we could possibly expand that to everyone, anywhere; possibly excluding those people who would do it themselves. Best 'medicine' for those people is to taste their own perhaps. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

Ian Too Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: Aug. 2005 Posted: Dec. 05 2005, 17:00 Quote (arron11196 @ Dec. 05 2005, 03:07) I think we could possibly expand that to everyone, anywhere; possibly excluding those people who would do it themselves. Best 'medicine' for those people is to taste their own perhaps. Ahhh Arron, but if you handed out this 'best medicine', you'd end up getting it from still more others, who in turn would get it from others, who in turn... well, I think you get the point.   -------------- (-: Ian :-) Currently reading: What Remains to be Discovered by John Maddox Also doing far too much decorating than is good for one Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 07:33 The real point is not to start with the finger pointing and snarky whispering in the first place. Then we wouldn't have to root out those that do it. Basic respect is a necessity in a forum like this. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

jonnyw Group: Members Posts: 522 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 08:18 when I see some of the discussions on Mikes personal life I'm disgusted at the lack of respect. We should all understand that just because "hes a rock star" doesnt mean we can pry at his personal life. Its his buisness, and I would be ashamed if he were to view some of the remarks made here on tubular. respect the man for what he has done, dont disrespect him for whatever your opinions are on his personal life. You wouldnt be here on the site if it weren't for his music. So be it if his personal life has anything to do with his music, which it no doubt does, but he has expressed it in a way only he can understand. thanks to Arron i realize that we all take what we want from art. what affects us. give the man his dignity. -------------- Grand piano. Reed and pipe organ. Glockenspeil. Bass guitar. Vocal chords. Two slightly sampled electric guitars. The venitian effect. Digital sound processor. And Tubular bells. Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com Back to top

Ian Too Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: Aug. 2005 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 15:23 Quote (jonnyw @ Dec. 06 2005, 08:18) when I see some of the discussions on Mikes personal life I'm disgusted at the lack of respect. So you're saying that because Mike is a famous musician, we should respect him? I ask because Gary Glitter is also a famous musician. Are you saying that we should respect him and ignore the fact that he's a child molester? Of course we should respect people who are talented, but if they do something bad or abuse other people, you have to have surrendered all reason not to let that affect your opinion of them. Quote We should all understand that just because "hes a rock star" doesnt mean we can pry at his personal life. Its his buisness, Why is this charge repeated when it is patently clear that I have done no such thing? As I have explained, I mentioned nothing which isn't already in the public domain and the very private Mr Oldfield can be remarkably open when he thinks it's going to get him a page in the Daily Mail. I'm sorry if this offends, but I have the cuttings to prove it. Quote ...respect the man for what he has done, dont disrespect him for whatever your opinions are on his personal life. I do respect Mike as a musician and - when he's on form - a composer, but it is precisely because of what he has done that I can't respect him as a man. Face it: he isn't a very nice man and I would forgive him that, except that many other people have far worse problems and yet remain sympathetic themselves. Quote You wouldnt be here on the site if it weren't for his music. So be it if his personal life has anything to do with his music, which it no doubt does, but he has expressed it in a way only he can understand. thanks to Arron i realize that we all take what we want from art. what affects us. give the man his dignity. I haven't taken Mike's dignity, he threw it away himself: by not living up to his own words, by not having self control in the face of temptation, by prostituing his personal life and by coming within a hair's breadth of assaulting Fanny. I set none of these standards and Mike set 2 of them, so when it all boils down it is Mike who has betrayed himself. It was Mike who said: "I'd like to see somebody come and play differently from everybody else, not using the blues scale, not turning into jazz, but making something new out of nothing. I'd like to see more variety, honesty, creativity, uniqueness, not everybody just following each other like sheep." and it's Mike who seems to have become more mimic than artist. At his best, Mike is a world class composer - someone who could stand among the great composers like Beethoven and Mozart - but if he wants that level of regard, he must stop following fashion and start making it. He must be true to himself and his art and feel that it is the most important thing in the world. I could forgive that Mike a lot, but not the mean-spirited journeyman we have now. -------------- (-: Ian :-) Currently reading: What Remains to be Discovered by John Maddox Also doing far too much decorating than is good for one Back to top

Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Group: Members Posts: 1545 Joined: Sep. 2005 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 15:32 Quote (Ian Too @ Dec. 06 2005, 15:23) Quote (jonnyw @ Dec. 06 2005, 08:18) when I see some of the discussions on Mikes personal life I'm disgusted at the lack of respect. So you're saying that because Mike is a famous musician, we should respect him? I ask because Gary Glitter is also a famous musician. Im getting very tired of this   Jonnyw is right, and Ian Too: we're not talking about gary glitter here... We're talking about mike and he's done NO SUCH THING in his personal life as glitter did, that would make us have to have less respect for him... -------------- "And now we're going to play Platinum!" Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 15:45 I'm sure, Ian Too, that your own life is completely blameless and above reproach; and that if you were a rock star, you would be a shining example to us all. But if you're willing to make such sweeping judgements of others based on no personal knowledge but purely on newspaper gossip, then I fervently hope that if ever I am in the dock, accused of a crime, that you are not on the jury. I can only add that I share Piltdown's weariness with all this. Any chance of someone locking this thread? Back to top

TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 15:52 Ian, Since you made mention of Gary Glitter in an earlier post, I was also reminded of accusations made against Freddie Mercury which are far worse, and I do agree that if 'stars' commit crimes, esp crimes against other humans such as child molestation and deliberately infected someone with AIDS, it should affect your opinion of that person and I think most people would agree with that. But Mike has commited no such crimes, his only flaw is being human, even more human than you and I perhaps in that he has 'issues' and he has struggled to keep them private. But these things do not compare and while he has done some stupid things and made them public and therefore does give you the right to personally disrespect him, I have to say that in my opinion no-one should ever be disrespected for being human unless they have commited a sin against you personally which Mike has not done and so therefore does not give you the right to condemn him in a Public Domain. We can all see that you are very disappointed in Mikes character but I'm not sure how it relates to his music. If you feel that the problem is he no longer cares about the music, then that is a viable concern that I also and many others agree with, but this is still Mikes business, if you don't like what he is producing anymore then don't buy it, just listen to the albums that you do have and enjoy. And if you don't like how he lives and/or sometimes advertises his personal life, then don't read about it. If his personal life alone is cause for you to stop buying his music that is ridiculous. He has done nothing that severe to warrant that reaction. He is human, and if as you imply you have read that he has shown some physical abuse towards Fanny, the only recollection of this I can recall are their wildly drunken arguements which she is obviously a willing participant in, and the story that I recall reading was released to the Public by her and not by him. I still believe Mike to be a very private person even if he has manipulated the press occasionally as anyone in his position would do. I think you have lost this arguement my friend. And when johnyw said, 'When I see some of the discussions on Mikes personal life I am disgusted at the lack of respect' I don't think he was saying that because Mike is a famous musician we should respect him. I think he was saying that because Mike is a person we should respect him, and just because his private life is sometimes made public does not mean he loses that right. If I told you something very personal and/or unpleasant about me, would that give you the right to tell everyone on this forum about it and express what you think. I hope not. -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 16:25 Well, it certainly seems like everything there is to be said has been said. I could add a lot to this discussion, but I won't. Let's just say that it's best to just stay a fan of the music and not go any further...otherwise you might end up seeing things you'd wish you hadn't. I'll leave this open with a view to closing it if it seems to just go round in the same circles again - if anyone has anything they'd particularly like to add, now would be a good time to do it. Back to top

Ian Too Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: Aug. 2005 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 17:10 Tracy, I don't think I have condemned Mike, only stated an honest - if unflattering - opinion. People who feel that I have condemned him are inflating my words to justify thier own reaction. Regarding the Gary Glitter example, I made no accusations of that kind against Mike and the confusion which reigns here simply shows how poorly people read when their shiboleths are threatened. That example was to show that you can't ignore facts once you know about them; not unless you have no moral compass at all. - As a side issue, while both acts are dispicable, in my book molesting children is worse than deliberately infecting people with AIDS. I don't personally think everybody does deserve respect, though they do have certain rights which should be respected - like their privacy. However, I haven't invaded Mike's privacy at all and I am angry about people saying I have. Nothing I have said is not in the public domain and most put there my Mike himself. I have no disappointment with Mike. He has always seemed unstable, mean and has been far from backward in criticising people himself (remember FUCKOFFRB?). This thread asked why the negativity and the answer is that Mike is the wellspring of it all - he never stops complaining. If it's not punk, then it's the music business or his personal problems. There are plenty of people who have just as many problems as him and yet act with more concern and generosity. Part of the point of all this is that you can love the music and not respect the person. I still love Mike's music very much - as I have told you personally - but he's not been true to himself or his muse. Tracy, you _have_ told me personal things that have affected how I regard you, but they have been in private and I NEVER betray a confidence. However, Mike didn't say these things in confidence, he did it to sell records, to raise his public profile. If he'd spoken to me condifentailly, you wouldn't even know the conversation had taken place. No, what has happened here is that people are zealously intolerant of criticism, especially when it's on target and they will wriggle and splutter and raise any objection they can to silence a dissentng voice when all they have to do is stop reading. Instead they want the thread closed down, they make a sin of truthfulness and paint a characture of me as harsh when all I have said is that Mike is a mean fool. I haven't said: 'don't listen to the music', I haven't said Mike should go to prison. Only that he has done bad things - things between the norm and criminality. Things which rob me of my respect for him as a person. -------------- (-: Ian :-) Currently reading: What Remains to be Discovered by John Maddox Also doing far too much decorating than is good for one Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 17:23 Quote (Ian Too @ Dec. 06 2005, 20:23) Quote (jonnyw @ Dec. 06 2005, 08:18) when I see some of the discussions on Mikes personal life I'm disgusted at the lack of respect. So you're saying that because Mike is a famous musician, we should respect him? I ask because Gary Glitter is also a famous musician. Are you saying that we should respect him and ignore the fact that he's a child molester? Oh Please, not all this again. Gary Glitter is a child molester, convicted in a court of law, where  as if Mike's only crime is being human, something I'm sure we're all guilty of.   if this topic is to keep going round in circles, then I agree it's best locked now. -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 18:40 Ian you have misconstrued almost everything I said. I did not say you made the same accusations against Mike as you did against GG, but you do put them in the same boat. (And as a side issue, AIDS kills, can't get much worse than that.) As I said, people who do things against you personally may not deserve your respect and people who commit crimes against other people certainly do not, but everyone else has the right to be who they are, even you. You have no disappointment with Mike, I'd like to hear what you have to say about people who do disappoint you then! I think it is more fair to say that people are zealously intolerant of criticism that is NOT on target, that is why it is called criticism and not FACT. It's heartening to know that things I have told you about myself have affected how you regard me. I am assuming that means that you do not regard me more highly, that's usually when a friendship ends. I find knowing more about a person usually enhances that relationship but each to their own. This is definitely going round in circles and I apologise for my part in it Korgscrew, wish I hadn't come in on the end of this. However, it is difficult to discuss this particular topic any other way isn't it, it is about negativity and criticism. Oh and one final general comment about this form of interaction between people, it is much easier to be misunderstood and people sometimes take offense when that was not the intention. But also it is much easier to be more honest and open about what you say and sometimes harsh, without fear of it affecting our personal lives and I for one am certainly guilty of saying things on here that I would never say face to face to someone. While it may be somewhat liberating and exciting for me and others like me, it is certainly not necessarilly healthy for the forum which I am finally getting a grasp on and while the members are quite capable of fending for themselves or defending themselves, I apologise for anything I have said to upset the moderators, and while I should have posted this in another topic I'm sure it will reach the intended recipient, sorry Inkanta and Korgscrew. -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

The Big BellEnd Group: Members Posts: 971 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Dec. 06 2005, 19:17 bikini's and mud -------------- I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY. Back to top

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