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qcfoetus Group: Members Posts: 110 Joined: April 2013 Posted: May 19 2023, 17:33 To all creators on these forums: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pMAo_qzpO8&t=148s This video asks, "why make music when nobody cares?," a fascinating, existential question that should resonate with artists who are struggling to find an audience in today's busy, crowded markets. Nevertheless, I can't help to wonder what Mike would have answered prior to gaining worldwide attention with TB (or, on a more whimsical note, what he would answer today to the question, "why make music when apparently the only people who care are hardcore fans who never cease to criticize while always craving for more?") Back to top

tarquincat Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: Aug. 2009 Posted: May 20 2023, 04:36 Love the last bit Back to top

shenry Group: Members Posts: 131 Joined: Oct. 2018 Posted: May 23 2023, 04:49 It's a very interesting question, and one I'm sure all musicians (and wannabe musicians) have tortured themselves over many times. I certainly have. I'm not sure I like the guy in the video. He's got a very smooth voice that starts to irritate me after a while (sorry, just being honest!, and he does that youtube thing where he spends 15 minutes talking around a subject when he could say what he wanted to say in a couple of minutes if he just got to the point. Back to top

Legend Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: May 23 2023, 08:14 Just remember: MO would NEVER answer a "why-question"!!! Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: May 23 2023, 15:10 Musical genius or creative originality is not going to make you famous, or even known. That ship has sailed. With the amount of music that is being made, the music business is mostly about marketing. If you are interested in music itself, you will probably be making it for yourself, and your own listening pleasure. It takes guts to make music for yourself, without the extra drive of a cheering crowd (or the prospect of having one). I must admit that my interest in writing and recording music has waned a bit, after realizing how few people that are actually interested in even listening once to an album of original tunes, that you spent years working on. When I was young, if you were one of the select few that got to make a record, it meant you had "made it". Your record was there, forever, for generations to discover, and for collectors to collect. Now, it's all fluid. When I die, I doubt that anyone is going to take care of my bandcamp page. My friends and family barely know I have 20+ albums of music available online. I write short stories now, and I get a lot of feedback from people who read them. With the music, everyone just shrug their shoulders and say like "Oh, that's nice". -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: June 2021 Posted: May 23 2023, 19:16 Quote (larstangmark @ May 23 2023, 15:10) Musical genius or creative originality is not going to make you famous, or even known. That ship has sailed. With the amount of music that is being made, the music business is mostly about marketing. Apparently your attitude is not new; this is an old saying: “Only sick music makes money today.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche (1880) and “It is difficult and painful for the ear to listen to anything new; we hear strange music badly.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil This explains the collective groan of the audience when the dreaded words "Now we'd like to play something from our new album" are heard from the stage as well as speaking somewhat to your professional predicament. Also: “One must learn to love.— This is what happens to us in music: first one has to learn to hear a figure and melody at all, to detect and distinguish it, to isolate it and delimit it as a separate life; then it requires some exertion and good will to tolerate it in spite of its strangeness, to be patient with its appearance and expression, and kindhearted about its oddity:—finally there comes a moment when we are used to it, when we wait for it, when we sense that we should miss it if it were missing: and now it continues to compel and enchant us relentlessly until we have become its humble and enraptured lovers who desire nothing better from the world than it and only it.— But that is what happens to us not only in music: that is how we have learned to love all things that we now love. In the end we are always rewarded for our good will, our patience, fairmindedness, and gentleness with what is strange; gradually, it sheds its veil and turns out to be a new and indescribable beauty:—that is its thanks for our hospitality. Even those who love themselves will have learned it in this way: for there is no other way. Love, too, has to be learned.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche “At a certain place in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, for example, he might feel that he is floating above the earth in a starry dome, with the dream of immortality in his heart; all the stars seem to glimmer around him, and the earth seems to sink ever deeper downwards.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Human, All Too Human: A Book for Free Spirits The above might be as good as any attempt at figuring out why Beethoven made music; such beautiful sentiments would surely equally apply to the remarkable composer of Tubular Bells II, Ommadawn, Music of the Spheres, Return to Ommadawn, Hergest Ridge, Songs of Distant Earth, Taurus II, etc. Who after all said things such as "heaven's open, you can just fly right in", "now thou art in heaven" and "a second in heaven's worth a whole life's trouble and trial". “In music the passions enjoy themselves.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil “Without music, life would be a mistake.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: June 2021 Posted: May 24 2023, 00:50 Quote (qcfoetus @ May 19 2023, 17:33) To all creators on these forums: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pMAo_qzpO8&t=148s This video asks, "why make music when nobody cares?," a fascinating, existential question that should resonate with artists who are struggling to find an audience in today's busy, crowded markets. Nevertheless, I can't help to wonder what Mike would have answered prior to gaining worldwide attention with TB (or, on a more whimsical note, what he would answer today to the question, "why make music when apparently the only people who care are hardcore fans who never cease to criticize while always craving for more?") "It goes back to the time when I was a teenager. I was very unsure of myself. Which of course is quite normal for a teenager. But I felt it very deeply. I was having what I’ve later learned was an “existential crisis,” it’s what the psychologists call it. It used to really frighten me. So, music was a world on its own to me, where I had control and understanding. And every instrument was like a character that its own voice. That made music so real to me. I also saw how much power and influence music can have on people." - Mike Oldfield https://domino.elfworld.org/mike-ol....with-me Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1767 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: May 24 2023, 04:12 Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ May 23 2023, 19:16) Apparently your attitude is not new; this is an old saying: “Only sick music makes money today.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche (1880) I didn't mean my statement as a "end of history"-type statement. I realize that the music business goes through phases, and some are more creative than others. Most of the modern pop/rock music that I know and love (and I think MO must be included there), sprang out of the 60s, when the music business realized that there was money to be made from selling pop records, and that pop records require novelty in order to sell. Thus, they signed anything that would catch the attention of the audience, as being "new". Radio play was still a factor, so much of the marketing was about the music being heard, and about the music drawing reaction. That was a brief and fruitful period in the music business. When hyping records, the labels used to claim that an artists music "defies categorization", and that would be a selling point. Now, that would be seen as an obstacle. Today, pop and rock music has become a sort of "show music" - background for a stage show and as an alibi for and artists fame, rather than a reason for it. We're back to the music hall era. For bad and for good, music is not a commodity any more, unless you write music for commercials or something (and AI is going to change that too). -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: June 2021 Posted: May 24 2023, 04:47 Quote (larstangmark @ May 24 2023, 04:12) Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ May 23 2023, 19:16) Apparently your attitude is not new; this is an old saying: “Only sick music makes money today.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche (1880) I didn't mean my statement as a "end of history"-type statement. I realize that the music business goes through phases, and some are more creative than others. Most of the modern pop/rock music that I know and love (and I think MO must be included there), sprang out of the 60s, when the music business realized that there was money to be made from selling pop records, and that pop records require novelty in order to sell. Thus, they signed anything that would catch the attention of the audience, as being "new". Radio play was still a factor, so much of the marketing was about the music being heard, and about the music drawing reaction. That was a brief and fruitful period in the music business. When hyping records, the labels used to claim that an artists music "defies categorization", and that would be a selling point. Now, that would be seen as an obstacle. Today, pop and rock music has become a sort of "show music" - background for a stage show and as an alibi for and artists fame, rather than a reason for it. We're back to the music hall era. For bad and for good, music is not a commodity any more, unless you write music for commercials or something (and AI is going to change that too). No, I knew what you meant; I was more a little bit surprised that the great philosopher made such a statement such a long time ago, almost 100 years before the Beatles, and even before the flourishing of Tchaikovsky, arguably the 2nd or 3rd greatest recognized musical genius (behind only Beethoven and possibly Mozart) of the last 500 years (essentially since reliable records - no pun intended - begin). I think Nietzsche was wrong to say that but it does show in a way that perhaps we are always critical about the current state of culture and the arts. Having said that, the state of popular music today is as you rightly say, utterly deplorable.  Certainly Return to Ommadawn is the only album of wholly original music worth listening to by anyone in any genre that I know of in the last 7 or 8 years (with the possible exception of Equinoxe Infinity), and I can't think of even one single widely known song released in the last 5 years worthy of being played more than once, apart from the recent Tubular Bells IV Intro demo (the full 8 minute cut) and maybe a couple of others.  Not to go into it but there is the Mayan prophecy which roughly states that the "creative vibrational frequency" of this human realm would peak or at least start to dip around the year 2012, and this seems to be quite true, although it seems like more around 2014 when it fully kicked in; Katie Perry's song "Dark Horse" seemed to be the watershed released when it all went horribly wrong (along with the deeply , deeply suspicious death of Avicii, the last or most recent truly all-time great modern composer, which seemed to be a profoundly symbolic event, this generations "day the music died"). In that sense I feel that we truly are in a kind of "end times", as the Mayan thing is getting at. Certainly the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, some of the 00s and the very early 10s were a truly golden age for popular and many other kinds of music; naturally we think of the 60s as the ultimate period, and that position can be argued - for example The Doors are probably the single most brilliant pop/rock band ever, in my view - but you can equally argue that the 70s, 80s or 90s were in their own way the best of times.  The point it seems to me is that it has only really gone drastically wrong since around the start of 2015. And you're right to bring up AI; if a computer algorithm had written Ed Sheeran's new album, for example, or any of his or Taylor Swift's last handful of albums, I don't think they could be any more bland and unremarkable than they are.  In that sense it's almost as if human original creativity and computing intelligence are sort of dovetailing... both heading headlong toward a complete cultural dumpster fire.  In a way it all started with Napster and the whole rise of pirated music, the fall of physical recorded music, physical record stores etc.  The romance of it all got replaced by soulless digital iThis and iThat, streaming this and download that. Not that the above discussion really relates to the original poster's question..it's so easy to drift off-topic. Back to top

shenry Group: Members Posts: 131 Joined: Oct. 2018 Posted: May 24 2023, 09:44 Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ May 24 2023, 04:47) [quote=larstangmark,May 24 2023, 04:12][quote=Sentinel_NZ,May 23 2023, 19:16] Not that the above discussion really relates to the original poster's question..it's so easy to drift off-topic. Yes, it's gone off topic, but I find this stuff very interesting. While I perhaps don't agree with some of your specific examples, I definitely have the feeling that music (pop music, rock music, whatever you want to call it) has reached the end of some kind of cycle and has gone stale. I'm convinced it's not just me being a "grumpy old man"! There's definitely more to it than that. The sense of innovation and adventure which drove the 60s and 70s (and even the 80s and 90s, depending on your perspective) is harder and harder to find these days. Back to top

Sentinel_NZ Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: June 2021 Posted: May 26 2023, 22:34 Quote (shenry @ May 24 2023, 09:44) Quote (Sentinel_NZ @ May 24 2023, 04:47) [quote=larstangmark,May 24 2023, 04:12][quote=Sentinel_NZ,May 23 2023, 19:16] Not that the above discussion really relates to the original poster's question..it's so easy to drift off-topic. Yes, it's gone off topic, but I find this stuff very interesting. While I perhaps don't agree with some of your specific examples, I definitely have the feeling that music (pop music, rock music, whatever you want to call it) has reached the end of some kind of cycle and has gone stale. I'm convinced it's not just me being a "grumpy old man"! There's definitely more to it than that. The sense of innovation and adventure which drove the 60s and 70s (and even the 80s and 90s, depending on your perspective) is harder and harder to find these days. Don McLean was already playing the grumpy old man back in 1970 when he declared that "the day the music died" was the passing of Buddy Holly*; for McLean, the 1960s itself was the death of wholesome music which he apparently saw as replaced by Satanic, debauched rock n roll, epitomized by The Rolling Stones (who do have albums called "Their Satanic Majesties Request" and "Goat's Head Soup" and songs like "Sympathy for the Devil", "Jumpin Jack Flash" etc).    So whether it's Nietzsche in the 1870s, Don McLean in the 1970s, or us today, we always tend to look back more fondly on the past when it comes to musical preferences.  Having said that, there is no question whatsoever tht today's musical landscape is a harsh, barren wasteland or a deserted ghost town of tumbleweeds, dried up waterholes, wandering, mournful spirits and tired, fading, broken down facades.  Or as Don McLean put it, "I drove my Chevy to the levy, but the levy was dry". *Of course, McLean also identified the "Moon landing" hoax as a significant milestone in the wider collapse of civilized society as he secretly inserted into the lyrics: "Oh, and there we were all in one place A generation lost in space [ie the endless array of 1950s/60s scifi-outer space TV series & movies, & the coterminous, supposedly real life "space race"] With no time left to start again So come on, Jack be nimble, Jack be quick [President Kennedy's bafflingly arbitrary 1960 declaration that "we choose to go to the Moon in this decade"] Jack Flash [=the Devil] sat on a candlestick [candlestick = the Saturn rocket; Saturn = cognate with Satan] 'Cause fire is the devil's only friend Oh, and as I watched him on the stage [i.e. the soundstage where the "Moon landings" were filmed; "him" = Neil Armstrong] My hands were clenched in fists of rage [McLean was incensed to watch the American government carry off such a brazen fraud in front of the whole world] No angel born in Hell  [Revelation 9:11 - yes, 9:11 - states "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon" - the angel Apollyon = Satan, the Devil, also called Lucifer "the Light-Bearer" and the bottomless pit = Hell, answering to "angel born in hell"; Apollyon is the same name as Apollo; hence, "Apollo [Moon landing missions]" = "angel born in Hell'; I realize that the official meaning of all this, including the reference to Jack Flash, is the Rolling Stones and their Altamont concert Hell's Angels security guards] Could break that Satan's spell [SATAN minus T = NASA. Hence, "T-minus" in NASA rocket countdowns] And as the flames climbed high into the night [the Saturn rocket taking off; granted, it didn't take off at night time but the image here is ostensibly about Holly's plane crashing, and only implicitly about the Saturn rocket ship, hence the specific imagery; alternately, it could mean the "LEM" blasting off from the Moon, which would be more in line with the sequence of events, since he already talked about the astronauts on the soundstage] To light the sacrificial rite [sacrificing the dignity and spiritual and existential integrity of the human race at the altar of the lord of the damned, pretty much] I saw Satan [=NASA] laughing with delight The day the music died". [here, "music" means anything wholesome or related to the truth- that all died with the Moon landing deception]. It's so easy to overlook how profoundly these unfathomably demonic evil crimes such as Moon landing hoax and the "9/11" inside job have debilitated humanity as such and undermined our collective confidence, happiness, intelligence, humanness and the truth in general - all of which obviously contributes to the demise of pure creativity in music and so on, so that we end up in the sad situation we see today. Back to top

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