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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 20 2000, 21:10

Has anyone else noticed an extremely high pitched whine that runs all the way through the Incantations CD? It's not particularly loud - it often gets masked by the music and fades out as the tracks do (indicating that it's on the master tape, I assume), but it's there. I'd guess that the frequency is probably upwards of 18kHz.
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: April 24 2000, 16:40

Hi Korgscrew.

Hey, that's funny you mentioned that.
I hear this strange sound on Incantations too. I first thought it was a guy in the studio who was coughing during the recording.

You will hear it on Part 1 on the cd in about
16:27 and 16:32. Listen carefully, and you'll hear a sound which sounds like a cough.

A friend of mine told me it was the sound which were caused by blowing through the flutes. But it could be a instrument too.

I've heard the sound (which I am talking about) on the LP too.

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-The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it-

Mike Oldfield - 1980
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rosko Offline




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Posted: April 26 2000, 11:09

That sound is definately just the flautist taking breaths in between notes or something like that. It occurs in time with the music too many times for it to someone coughing in the background.
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CarstenKuss Offline




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Posted: April 26 2000, 17:08

OK, but Korgscrew was talking about WHINING, not coughing or flute transients.
I think I found out what the whining is:
Just listen to the very first seconds of the Incantations CD. With the "Aaaaah...", there is a very LOUD, high-pitched buzzing and hissing noise. It gets louder as more voices join in.
When you sample that, you see that the waveform is similar to a PULSEWAVE. A pulsewave is like a square wave, but with only SHORT pulses of voltage, and LONG intervals of zero voltage, like this:
_ _
____| |________| |____

If you put a pulsewave through harmonic analysis (normal people call that "listening"), you get many high-pitched harmonics.
This is so, because you need many high-frequency sine-waves in order to create the long silence by destructive interference (See "Fourier Theory" in math books).
Conclusion:
The "whining" is not additional noise, but was produced by the low-quality synth that was used for the "Aaaaahh".


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-Carsten-
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CarstenKuss Offline




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Posted: April 26 2000, 17:33

There's something else.
Listen to the very beginning of PART THREE. In the first half second or so, before the instruments actually start to play, there is a noise that sounds like tape hiss to me.
For a moment it's low, then it jumps to full volume just before the instruments start.

I can imagine the mixer's idea: "Well, let's not shock them with a sudden LOUD noise... let's give them a LOW noise first, so the ears can get used to the sound of it..." wink

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-Carsten-
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rosko Offline




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Posted: April 27 2000, 08:05

I wasn't talking about the whining noise that Korgscrew mentioned. I was talking about the supposed coughing noise that Blue Dolphin mentioned.

I agree with you about the whining anyway. I just had another listen to part one and could hear it. I couldn't hear the hiss on part 3 though. Maybe some versions have it and some don't (mine is CAROL 1854-2, a USA import CD by the way).

I don't think it really matters anyway. It's a pretty boring topic. We should be talking about the musical content, not whines and hisses!
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 27 2000, 22:23

I actually agree with you rosko...
It was just driving me mad because nobody else seemed to have heard it...now its been confirmed I can leave the topic alone to find something more interesting to talk about wink

To answer Carsten..I hate to argue, but if it was the 'aah' (which I think is actually a real voice and not a synth...I don't think an analogue synth could have made a sound as realistic as that) creating the whine, then it would appear panned in the same place as the voice...it stays in the centre, however.

Blue Dolphin's question has already been answered, but I'll say as well that it is the sound of the flautist taking breaths and blowing in a slightly altered way into the flute (the reverb used on the flute makes this sound more odd).
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CarstenKuss Offline




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Posted: April 30 2000, 19:42

I don't think the "Aaaaah..." is singers recorded thru a microphone.
Because:
1) The first note goes on for ~30 seconds. That's a very long time. Try it!
2) The waveform is much too regular.
3) There are at least 7 notes being stacked. And while that happens, you hear a tremolo which is typical for keyboards but not for choirs.
But I agree, Korgscrew, that it's not an analog synth. Too realistic!
MAYBE IT'S A MELLOTRON?


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-Carsten-
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: May 01 2000, 21:06

I must be crazy...I did try it - 26 seconds  :wink: I'd guess that a trained singer could perhaps manage a full 30 (at a stretch), and they could produce a suprisingly regular waveform...but I think you're right, it's not that...

A mellotron would be more like it, maybe...something using tape loops at least. There are long sustained vocal notes on Ommadawn that I think may be done like this. Following from that, the 'tremolo' effect could be tape flutter, or perhaps an effect added - the voices certainly sound processed.

The whine also appears in sections where there's nothing at all playing, btw...there's a bit in part 2...I don't remember the exact time, but it's there. Being a sad old git with nothing better to do, I took a look at the waveforms...absolutely tiny...I've got no idea how I ever managed to hear that...
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GMOVJ Offline




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Posted: May 02 2000, 04:12

Quote
Originally posted by CarstenKuss:
2) The waveform is much too regular.
But I agree, Korgscrew, that it's not an analog synth. Too realistic!


Sorry to jump in this discusion
I don't agree with you Carsten, I think a good vocalist can produce a very regular waveform. If you listen "The Inner Child Live" (Man In the Rain CD-Single), the vocal produces a very very regular waveform even if it's live. And I'm sure it's not a synth ! wink
That was just a little parenthesis.
I always thouqh that was a real singer, maybe with an loop effect (don't know how they did, maybe echo with a sustain sound may be like this ?), but with a natural basic ! As I'm not expert in synth, I let you discuss and decide this, I'll just read :-), but imho, I think this is real vocal with looping or echo.
Cheers !

--------------
Cheers,
GMOVJ
[URL=http://tubular.fodplanet.com]http://tubular.fodplanet.com[/URL] - The french speaking mailing list
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rosko Offline




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Posted: May 02 2000, 07:24

If it was a synth that made the sound it would have to be analog. Think about it - how many digital synths were around in 1978!!!! Like GMOVJ, I don't think it was synth anyway. It would have to be a looped or echoed voice. Now could we all find something more interesting to discuss???!!
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: May 02 2000, 18:04

The singing from the beginning it certainly done by a professional singer. Singers can hold the notes for very long times.

I've heard this Iron Maiden song, with singer Bruce Dickenson, and he holds this note for a VERY long time.

But hey, maybe Oldfield did some magical tape stuff and pasted the same pieces after each other. wink

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-The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it-

Mike Oldfield - 1980
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: May 06 2000, 22:19

My thoughts here...

rosko: For me, this was starting to get interesting. We're beginning to try and uncover how the album was put together and therefore the way Mike translates his thoughts into something more 'real'. For people creating their own music, knowing how other artists work, along with accidents and moments of pure genius can often help the ideas become something that other people can understand...If you don't find this interesting, though, nobody's forcing you to read this wink

Blue Dolphin: The idea of pasting pieces of tape together might seem crazy, but it happened. If you listen to Pink Floyd's 'Money', you'll hear sound effects put together in a sequence which comes in time with the music, a bit like a sampled percussion track or something. This was done exactly like that, though - taking each effect on an individual piece of tape and sticking them all together so that they formed a steady beat (the musicians then played in time to this).
Now, listen to the vocal sound on Incantations. There's actually no separate 'attack' portion to the sound - it can be started anywhere and the beginning of the 'aaah' will sound the same. In simple terms, this means that it's perfectly possible to loop this sound. The way it is generally done is something like this: After being laced across the heads (the parts that pick up the magnetic field from the tape and turn it into an electrical signal) of the tape recorder, the ends of the tape, instead of being attached to the spools (the big reels that the tape is kept on and that hold the tape while on the machine), are stuck together to form a loop. It's then passed around something that will keep up the tension on the tape, and stop it dragging on the floor - often something hi-tech, like a broom handle. Then, as long as the tape machine keeps going, the sound keeps playing. In the case of the 'aaah's, the different pitches could be either created by using separate recordings, or by altering the speed of the same one (this could end up sounding artificial, though, so I have my reservations about that one). Either way, they'll all be laid down to the multitrack tape - they're probably all there from the beginning and just brought up one after the other from the mixing desk (simpler than trying to start a tape machine at exactly the right point, although that's probably possible as well...).

So there's some stuff to think about...
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rosko Offline




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Posted: May 08 2000, 08:36

I wasn't saying that discussing MO's recording techniques is boring. Far from it. I was simply pointed out how boring it is to be discussing whines and hisses on the recording.

On the subject of recording technique, I once heard on a tv show that the Beatles made a very inovative use of the looping technique on the album Revolver. They put loops of different notes in the players and triggered them at the appropriate times (played them like an organ!!). I think MO might have also done this or something similar on TB. One of the intruments listed on the album is "Taped motor drive amplifier organ chord". Does anyone know anything else about this?

Interesting - If you reply, please use the TubularTech forum, since this is not related to Incantations anymore. - Olivier

[This message has been edited by Olivier (edited 05-08-2000).]
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Thea Cochrane Offline




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Posted: May 25 2000, 04:27

I think the tape loop theory is probably correct. Check out "10CCs I'm Not In Love", this used a similar idea of "playing" a mixing desk by having all the vocals on and fading up individual notes from the multi-track. I've heard tales of huge lengths of tape running around cymbal stands and microphone stands in the studio to keep the tension on the tape correct.

I don't think that it is a mellotron, this is because the choir sounds on a mellotron don't sound like Maddy Prior - then again Mike could have record his own preset, I know the BBC used to use mellotrons to play effects into radio plays, etc.

(Sorry Olivier, I thought this was still related to Incantations)

[This message has been edited by Mat Cochrane (edited 05-25-2000).]
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ex member 337 Offline




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Posted: Aug. 05 2000, 11:44

I don't think the 'aahhhh' is a live recording vocals because at the begining of Exposed the 'aahhh' is very similar and definitely does not sound like the choir of the rest of the recording.
This said - Mike could of played the pre recorded album intro.
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Craig Evans Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2005, 03:45

Quote (Korgscrew @ April 20 2000, 21:10)
Has anyone else noticed an extremely high pitched whine that runs all the way through the Incantations CD? It's not particularly loud - it often gets masked by the music and fades out as the tracks do (indicating that it's on the master tape, I assume), but it's there. I'd guess that the frequency is probably upwards of 18kHz.

The "master tape" bit could indicate that it is some more of that 50kHz tape hum that was present all through "Tubular Bells 1973".  :)  :)

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"It is good to be on Horseback" - Mike Oldfield "On Horseback"

"(Insert "The Thunderstorm" here)"
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c_haese Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2005, 08:37

Quote (Craig Evans @ Aug. 29 2005, 03:45)
The "master tape" bit could indicate that it is some more of that 50kHz tape hum that was present all through "Tubular Bells 1973".  :)  :)

That has got to be 50Hz. 50kHz is 50000 Hz and lies well beyond anything a human ear can hear.

-Carsten
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Craig Evans Offline




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Posted: Aug. 30 2005, 04:51

Quote (c_haese @ Aug. 29 2005, 08:37)
Quote (Craig Evans @ Aug. 29 2005, 03:45)
The "master tape" bit could indicate that it is some more of that 50kHz tape hum that was present all through "Tubular Bells 1973".  :)  :)

That has got to be 50Hz. 50kHz is 50000 Hz and lies well beyond anything a human ear can hear.

-Carsten

I am sorry about that.  I got 50Hz confused with 50kHz.  :)  :)

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"It is good to be on Horseback" - Mike Oldfield "On Horseback"

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Daftyboy Offline




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Posted: Sep. 08 2005, 16:15

And I always thought the 'whining' noise during Incantations was people moaning that their part 3 was too short!!
Sorry, sorry. I'm new here...
Adrian
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