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Topic: What's all the fus about?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Baggiesfaninessex Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 05:29

Quote (Alan D @ April 14 2005, 16:28)
Well, its success as an art form, surely, depends on its capability of communicating the full range of human feeling? Some of those feelings are deeply serious, so surely there should be a place for expressing them through music? And no - it isn't leading us towards a new plane of existence; it's enhancing and enriching and extending the existence that we already have.

Alan - you have expressed what I feel beautifully in that one paragragh. Thank you.

Quote
It's like trying to accept the presence of a caterpillar on your lettuce every time you eat a salad....


And that my friend is one of the finest analogies I have read in a long time.

Well, this discussion has moved on to something far deeper and in many ways, I'm pleased that it has done. For a major work such as Amarok, I think it was necessary to delve into our own personal relationships with music and express them, so as to understand each other and to respect each others' feeling too.

Often, I will be watching a TV programme or a movie and I will hear, maybe just a snippet of what I consider to be a beautiful piece of music. I can't rest until I have discovered what it is and moreover, until I have it in my hot, sweaty palms, ready to play and listen, time and again! I'm afraid that's just the way I am - I am not an anorak per se, I am not obsessive to the point that music dictates my life and my life revolves around it, I simply love music and love being moved by it.

If that is regarded by some as a religious experience and one which they wish to distance themselves from in favour of something more light-hearted, then I respect that. I am not a religious man - I believe that whatever gives people faith and whoever they may pray to, providing that brings comfort, must be good. The only comparison I can make is that music brings me comfort - it is a pleasure and certainly not a time consuming activity as it forms an essential part of my life. That feeling, that reaction one gets after hearing something special is far too personal to us all as individuals to be able to adequately express it in words, so that others feel it too. But some of you here, have made some bloody good attempts so far.  ;)


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“A dog is not intelligent. Never trust an animal that's surprised by its own farts.” - Frank Skinner
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 05:59

Quote (T4 @ April 16 2005, 10:29)
For a major work such as Amarok ...

As I was reading your post, T4, this phrase came ringing out like a bell (tubular, I presume). Because of course all of us would agree that Amarok is indeed a major work, and in a way, this whole discussion is testament to that fact. I can't imagine that the Blue Peter theme tune would ever generate so much, so intense discussion! What impresses me most is that so many people have spent so much time and effort genuinely trying to understand what others are experiencing when they listen to this extraordinary music. That's a pretty good tribute to Amarok, don't you think?
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Baggiesfaninessex Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 06:16

Yes Alan - you're right.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that any other album of Mike's has led to such detailed analysis, discussion and debate.


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 13:49

Well, would you look at that. Discussion has reached a... somewhat peaceful tone, at last. Something must have happened as this discussion went along, but my feelings were taken the wrong way. I guess one post negates the previous one, and an explanation can completely shift the focus to something different. I come to points when I completely forget what I was trying to explain, on first place. But this is a timeline of what, more or less, I think happened here:

1) T4 and AlanD say that Amarok is fantastic, but one bit of Margaret Thatcher impersonation completely ruins a powerful experience;
2) I say I don't understand that what kind of powerful, larger-than-life experience can be completely ruined by a lightweight joke that, to me, is an essential part of the work;
3) People argue nobody is forced to like the Thatcher bit because I say it's important to the album;
4) I agree, and say that I still can't understand what kind of powerful experience one can get from music, because to me, music overall is all about fun, and isn't anything crucial to me, but I occupy myself with it because I like it;
5) People say that music isn't just fun, and that it's about feeling, emotion, enlightenment, and that it shouldn't be a mere chore or occupation;

And then's where I said that music isn't about emotion to me. Well, it isn't. I don't go out to the second-hand store and buy an LP to get emotion to it. I did it because I find it lots of fun to listen to new music, to discover new things, and to enjoy it. Just look at me now, as I'm blankly typing on the computer, with The Cranberries playing on my PC speakers. I'm doing this for fun, because I like it. Yes, I love the Cranberries, but this is all just fun. I'm not being flooded with emotions or anything.

Emotion does come, eventually, but it's always unexpected to me. It gets me by surprise, just like Tubular Bells did when I started to listen to it (it happened just two years ago, and I'm getting extremely nostalgic about it, btw... Geez, I'm getting OLD!;). Lots of albums/songs do affect me many times, but that comes as an extra reward, a bonus for me being so dedicated to music. "Turn Of The Century" by Yes had a big impact on me a few times, but if I put it now, it will go off as a nice, pretty song. It won't cause a huge emotional impact, but I don't bother. It's fun. It was also very affecting when I finished recording "Buses", and seeing the entire waveform on the screen. Do I get affected by it now? Not as much, but I still love it.

The danger of being emotionally moved by music makes the ride more fun, in fact. But it's just that: fun. Amarok isn't like eating lettuce. Eating is important to me, I need it, and a caterpillar on my lettuce will make me cringe. Music isn't like eating, or breathing. It's just fun, and Amarok - while it does affect me big time sometimes - is just fun. So there's no danger of an inane, deranged speech screwing up something "big" and "important" to me, because it wasn't.

I may be getting something wrong here, but this is what I was trying to express all the time. I hope it's clearer now. I love music, I don't feel under pressure of that "chore", and I do it for fun. Like I said, sometimes the "fun" isn't the proverbial kind of fun, but it's a pleasing, stimulating brain activity, even if it's The Cure's 'Pornography' that I'm listening. It's all fun, nothing to get so worked up about.


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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MusicallyInspired Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 14:52

That's the big dividing line between (at least) you and me. It's not an important thing to you. It's a recreational activity. To me it is important like any other art. Art that needs serious attention paid to it sometimes. Sometimes it is fun. Sometimes it's just fun to jam and sometimes it's just fun to groove to and have a great time of recreation doing it. But that's not ALL music is or all it can do. Maybe to you that's all it is and that's just fine, but I get more out of it than just recreation and a good time. I soak as much elements from music into me as I can get! Music has fun aspects and serious aspects and emotional and sad and happy and angry aspects and logical and philosophical aspects just like anything else. Anything in the world can be taken seriously or just for fun. Anything at all. It's all dependant on the person's style and personal tastes.

So to me music is mostly a serious emotional entity. Not just a hobby that I do when I'm bored or want something fun to do. At times it is, but not most of the time. I'm always exploring music and seeing what new emotions or feelings or atmospheres or landscapes I can discover through it that's never been touched or heard before! That's the beauty and excitement of music for me. Sometimes I'll find a fun atmosphere and that's ok, too. But I could never look at music as simply fun and recreational. It's unfathomable to me lol. A big chunk of my life is centered around music. I play and lsiten for the atomosphere, landscapes, feeling, emotion, fun, recreation, sadness, happiness, logical, philosophical, technical, structured, organized, unorganized, thinking, provocativeness, simpleness, complexity, and anything else you can ever think of that triggers a chemical reaction in the human brain. All of it. I'm not obsessed with music (although from what I've said it might reflect that! ) , I just really love it and want to get as much out of it as I possibly can.

Look at film scores. You can't say the music in most film scores is done for fun. Probably why I like film scores a lot, actually lol. Just an example. There's many aspects to music. Not just fun. That's why I picture Amarok as an epic and not the biggest fun jam in the world ;).


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"The beauty in life is in the embracing of the variety of things. If all the world was blue there would be no colour blue."
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 15:09

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 16 2005, 18:49)
It's all fun, nothing to get so worked up about.

But the real point, for me, is that this clear statement (and others like it) explains everything about why we disagree about certain aspects of Amarok (of which the Thatcher monologue is a convenient example). We are not, and never were, discussing the same thing. The experience you have when you listen to music isn't the same kind of experience I have. You approach music, on the whole, expecting (or hoping for) something entirely different to what I'm expecting (or hoping) for.

That, for me, is the revelation here. My way of listening would be anathema to you, just as yours seems unsatisfying to me. This does, I think, make it extremely hard to compare opinions in any meaningful way.
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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 15:29

Ah yes, it seem's like this topic may be finally coming to a cosy, amicable, well mannered close , we have gone into deep and emotional correspondent's from fans of amarok, and heart felt honest replies in the best possible taste, by people who's negative thought's on this piece of work in no way undermined the integrity or passion of the affore mentioned. A piece of work that has stirred the soul of discussion, it has brought together art and music lovers, and peoples value of both.  what music, art, the emotions of love , life, and joy mean to a person and the way it effects them personally. It has been a pleasure to be involved in this topic and I hope that no body has been effected in a way that may make them uneasy or even a little angry. I'm sure if Mike had looked in at this topic and it's huge input of responses, he would have found it at least interesting. ps as for maggies speach I did'nt consider it so much a caterpillar on a lettuce, it was more like finding a skid-mark on hotel bath towel.

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I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 15:53

Quote (The Big BellEnd @ April 16 2005, 20:29)
ps as for maggies speach I did'nt consider it so much a caterpillar on a lettuce, it was more like finding a skid-mark on hotel bath towel.

I guess I always thought it was chocolate...

Still, now this is coming to a close, why don't we put on Amarok and all sit down to a juicy caterpillar salad, with weak lemon drink all round?
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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 16:04

HOORAAY

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I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY.
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bee Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 16:05

Interesting debate.

I listen to music. I couldn't live without it. It's a big part of my life and I think it helps me make sense of our existence as human beings.

It describes times,places, people, feelings, events and is a 'recording;' of these things. Something that you go back to & have another look through. Like thought and memory, one's no good without the other. Like all art forms music is made with emotion, and if you respond with an emotion, ie it makes you feel sad or happy or good~ then great. It has worked.
I reach for certain music at different times and Mike's happens to be, for me, the music I seek out the most. But it is by no means the only one. I love all sorts of stuff.

Discussing it all sounds terribly serious and no fun, but for me music  is fun, it's all about expression. I'm not good at expressing my feelings- music helps. I read this somewhere "the function of music is to liberate in the soul those feelings which normally we keep locked up in the heart." That kind of says what I feel, anyway.

And by the way, Sir Mustapha, 19 is not old - please[B]!! And what's all this about Raloo milk and cows etc? What's happened to Lisa?

Now, where's that Guinness?......


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 17:40

Quote (Korgscrew @ April 16 2005, 20:53)
Still, now this is coming to a close, why don't we put on Amarok and all sit down to a juicy caterpillar salad, with weak lemon drink all round?

Waiter!! I wish to complain! There's some lettuce on my caterpillar, and my weak lemon drink is too strong, and my sprig of mint is phase-inverted!! And if you don't turn the CD-player off when we get to the end of Africa 2, I won't be leaving a tip .....
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 17:58

Quote (The Big BellEnd @ April 16 2005, 20:29)
Ah yes, it seem's like this topic may be finally coming to a cosy, amicable, well mannered close ,

And so we watch our protagonists walking, arm in arm, towards the sunset and the pub, all at peace, and all wearing their own set of headphones. Sir M is laughing merrily with the Thatcher speech set to repeat; Alan D is weeping copiously and groaning but insisting that he's having a great time; Korgscrew is checking the phase and polarity of his jackplug connections; T4 is conducting vigorously with an invisible baton; Raven is writing down some very clear statements about what he's hearing; Jules is single-handedly date-stamping his CD cover; Ktran is humming along on one note but really meaning it; OlracUK and EeTon are trying to get a word in edgeways; Brandon is running to catch them up; and Bee is trying to untangle her headphone wires.

And Big Bell End? He's been sent ahead to the pub, to pay for the weak lemon drinks. However, if we watch him carefully, we see that he's only bought one, but he's asked for extra glasses and a large jug of water.....


[Apologies - or congratulations, depending on your point of view - to anyone I left out]
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 18:42

Quote (Alan D @ April 16 2005, 17:58)
......vigorously with an invisible baton; Raven is writing down some very clear statements about what he's hearing; Jules is date-stamping his CD cover; Brandon is running to catch them up; and Bee is trying to untangle.......

And Richard Branson gets so angry that he kicks a hole in his hot air balloon....

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"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 19:18

Quote (bee @ April 16 2005, 16:05)
And by the way, Sir Mustapha, 19 is not old - please[B]!!

Yeah, you're right. But it's never too old to be nostalgic, is it? Well, at least I am not. :) But like some say, it's better to be nostalgic than to have nothing to be nostalgic of.

About the avatar, I decided to give ol' Lisa a break. :) I'm not in my "angsty" phase anymore. My sig is a tune taken from a children's cartoon, and the avatar is a character from it. I've been really enjoying watching those shows recently. :D


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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familyjules Offline




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Posted: April 17 2005, 12:36

Now we've all finished writing about music, shall we all go and dance about architecture?

;)

Jules


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bee Offline




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Posted: April 17 2005, 15:01

Oooo yes! I've heard Gaudi is very good, lots of curves! Maybe I'd better not join in, I might get my earphone wires tangled again.

And , Sir M, good for you! You know, nostalgia and nursery rhymes and all that. Great stuff!!

bee :)


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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: April 17 2005, 16:23

And don't forget the music album "Gaudi" by the Alan Parsons Project, and the soundtrack to the stage musical of the same name....

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"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
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Baggiesfaninessex Offline




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Posted: April 17 2005, 17:45

Quote (Alan D @ April 16 2005, 17:58)
T4 is conducting vigorously with an invisible baton; Raven is writing down some very clear statements about what he's hearing;

Aha! Alan, that's spooky. You have tremendous perception of what I am like after a few drinks  ;)

Sir Mustapha, I've often wondered what your avatar is but have been afraid to get too close in case it gives me nightmares!  :O Lol  ;)  ;)  :D


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maria Offline




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Posted: April 17 2005, 18:11

and now we know there's a link between gaudí and mike oldfield in maestro.
the stained-glass windows in the game are like the ones the architect designed for the gothic cathedral in palma de mallorca when he worked in its remodelation.


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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: April 17 2005, 18:20

Speaking of Maestro archecture, is there a name for that huge building near the forest that has all the timed slamming doors in it?

I have always called it the Arcology.


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"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
- Song of Hiawatha
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