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Topic: What's all the fus about?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: April 14 2005, 23:42

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 15 2005, 01:45)
There's nothing too revelatory, important and/or religious about that. It's just music, music made by humans, and that provokes human feelings in me.


Exactly. This is exactly what I feel. I'm not sure how you have managed to use that statement to disagree with me, but you have. It is the experience of feelings that music gives me, and why it is so important to me. It's not like meditation or anything, and I can't remember anyone saying anything about it making you a better person, but it does make me feel better (even the sad, angry music makes me feel good after I listen to it, don't ask me why).

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 15 2005, 02:48)
What kind of "experience" is that, that can be so easily ruined by a silly joke?


I assume you are refering to the thatcher speech again. I can't speak for anyone else, but that section doesn't ruin anything for me. Anyway, how many times have you listened to a piece, possably quite an emotional one, but not liked it because it is 'cheesy', 'generic' or something like that? This is a fragile experience, but one that is of great value to me.  

Quote (Alan D @ April 15 2005, 05:28)
it's enhancing and enriching and extending the existence that we already have.


Oh yes. Well said.


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familyjules Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 05:31

Quote (Alan D @ April 14 2005, 16:28)
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But otherwise, music is fun and nothing else.
Well, again, it seems to be so for you and some others, and that's your choice. I think you're missing out on a lot

Got to agree STRONGLY with Alan here.  If music was just 'fun' for me I wouldn't be posting on this board.  Music is all-consuming for me at times.  It gets into my cells, I breathe it 24 hours a day, I eat it, sleep it, shit it.  It's the rhythm of my life.  'Fun' is something I have when I'm being silly or hanging out with some friends and kicking back and relaxing.  Music isn't 'fun' for me - it's a powerful drug.  I actually find it hard to relate to people who consider music to be a form of entertainment!  LOL  It's so much more than that, and quite possibly isn't that at all to my mind.

Jules


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familyjules Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 05:33

Quote (raven4x4x @ April 14 2005, 23:42)
Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 15 2005, 02:48)
What kind of "experience" is that, that can be so easily ruined by a silly joke?

A profound one made infantile.

Jules


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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 09:48

My feeling is that music is necessary. You can't save the world every hour of the day - there has to come a time when you switch off (and with that, I mean something different to sleep, which is of course also necessary), else you'll just burn out.

Religious? Take a look around - look at the number of religions which use music as part of worship. Music can have very profound effects on the mind, and I believe that those effects are necessary - music just wouldn't be used by so many different cultures (all cultures...and some of the oldest manmade objects found have been musical instruments) if it wasn't (same goes for religious worship...and if you say that religious worship isn't so popular these days, take a look at football crowds and concert audiences, all collected together together, singing - it may not be a traditional God which they worship, but the act of congregation is similar...that's going wildly off topic though).

And so to Amarok...
This is where I veer off in a completely different direction, actually. I've never questioned Amarok, and perhaps that's the secret to enjoying it. I've never asked why Margaret Thatcher is there - she just is...and the same goes for all the strange parts of the album. It happens when certain types of creative people get together (or even when they work on their own!) - someone suddenly says "Hey, we could do this" and describes an outrageous idea. It then gets tried out, and everyone present finds it absolutely ridiculous...and so it gets used! I'm sure there are deep seated reasons for some artists wanting to draw moustaches on their Mona Lisas like this, but generally the level of conscious thought doesn't go far beyond "It's crazy...but I like it". Which is exactly what I think of Amarok.
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familyjules Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 09:58

Quote (Korgscrew @ April 15 2005, 09:48)
My feeling is that music is necessary. You can't save the world every hour of the day - there has to come a time when you switch off (and with that, I mean something different to sleep, which is of course also necessary), else you'll just burn out.

Great post, K.  I would argue that listening to music isn't really "switching off" though, more like switching channels.  After all, none of us puts on Mike for background music really.  We're pretty focused on the music.

But yeah, music is intrinsic to what being a human being is about.  Which is why I don't agree that its primary function is entertainment.  Its primary function may be for dance or for healing or for meditation or something else entirely, but music whose primary function is to entertain seems to me to be a shadow of what music is really capable of.

Of course sometimes music is very entertaining and fun.  But that's just one aspect of many.

Jules


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Holger Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 10:25

Quote (Korgscrew @ April 15 2005, 15:48)
I've never questioned Amarok, and perhaps that's the secret to enjoying it. I've never asked why Margaret Thatcher is there - she just is...

To paraphrase that:

Why is the Thatcher speech there?
Because it's Amarok.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 11:03

Quote (familyjules @ April 15 2005, 14:58)
I would argue that listening to music isn't really "switching off" though, more like switching channels.

Yes, that's a better way of putting it - I didn't mean a complete power off!

Listening to an album like Amarok is definitely not the way to become semi-comatose, after all (unless you hit your head on something when one of the loud bits makes you jump out of your seat). It's a form of escape, though, and sometimes a way of stimulating parts of the brain that might have been fairly dormant for most of the day.

I'd agree with that paraphrase too, Holger - for me, somehow, Amarok is just Amarok, an album without a why! Mike never did like why questions much...
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 11:03

I'd extend Korg's elegant and eloquent post slightly by saying:

'My feeling is that art is necessary'

The idea that music is a side issue - a kind of hobby - is a subdivision of the widely prevalent attitude that all art is a side issue, in which the picture on your wall, the novel on your bookshelf, and the music in your player all become something you do merely to make your spare time pleasant. In my view this is a calamitous and dehumanising mistake. As Korg points out, and as far back as you can go, you find cultures in which art of all kinds plays a crucial central role in life.

Going back to Amarok: I don't have any problem with the suggestion that the Thatcher piece was put in because it was a kind of crazy thing that seemed a good idea at the time. That sounds very likely. My only real difficulty is with the idea that it's crucial to the understanding of Amarok and that we're missing the point if we'd prefer to see it edited out.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 11:12

Quote (Holger @ April 15 2005, 15:25)
Why is the Thatcher speech there?
Because it's Amarok.

I think that's an excellent attitude to take, Holger, and one which I'd gladly adopt myself - but sadly if you're one of the people who cringe with distaste every time she starts her monologue, it's just not possible to listen to it without wishing it away and asking why. It's like trying to accept the presence of a caterpillar on your lettuce every time you eat a salad....
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familyjules Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 11:14

Quote (Alan D @ April 15 2005, 11:12)
It's like trying to accept the presence of a caterpillar on your lettuce every time you eat a salad....

LMAO!!  Analogy of the week award goes to Alan D!

:laugh:

Jules


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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 13:14

To end this topic you have a choice, you can either cut the red wire or the blue wire, it's up to you, red,blue, what's it gonna be.

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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 13:21

Well, I'd cut the caterpillar, myself.
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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 13:29

you sir, are a hoot.

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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 13:36

Quote (Korgscrew @ April 15 2005, 09:48)
Religious? Take a look around - look at the number of religions which use music as part of worship.

Yeah, but is it all about the music itself, or about the unifying act of joining voices in an unison to express worship? Music is just a vehicle to deliver that, but a statement of art - in [í]that[/i] particular case. But music as a statement of art is only "religious" if one devotes that kind of worship to it. But I don't. Music to me is an occupation - an occupation that I love, yes, but a simple occupation nonetheless. Also, it costs money, it costs time, it costs attetion and brainpower, and it motivates me to spend time doing other activities related to music (composing, playing, reviewing and posting on an Internet forum) with also cost money, time, brainpower etc. It's mundane, it's human, and it's even banal. I can't depend on music to communicate feelings - I'd rather talk to my family, or my neighbours.

Music is just a very time-consuming activity. It takes a big part of my life because I identify with it, just like a lot of people identify with movies, literature, painting or charity work. Music isn't about emotion, to me, and that's why Amarok is such a natural thing to me. The songs that do make me emote are the oddities.

Seriously, if I listened to music to search for smashing, soul-crushing experiences, I'd be listening only to 10% of the music that I listen. I'm not missing anything at all.


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 15:52

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 15 2005, 18:36)
Music to me is an occupation ... Also, it costs money, it costs time, it costs attetion and brainpower ... It's mundane, it's human, and it's even banal. I can't depend on music to communicate feelings ... Music is just a very time-consuming activity.
Yes, first there's the washing up, then there's the vacuum cleaning, and the dusting, and then - oh heck, there's that damn music to listen to. Chores upon chores.....
Quote
Music isn't about emotion, to me.
Actually, this statement doesn't seem to fit with anything you've said in the past. You've often spoken of Amarok, very sincerely and convincingly, as someone who feels passionately about it and is moved by it - who is in fact involved with it in a very emotional way. I was never (till now) in any doubt about that (and indeed it was that intensity of yours which made these discussions worth having). Are you sure you really mean this?
Quote
I'm not missing anything at all.
I can't help observing that this post, declaring that music is just one of those chores you have to get through, is not a very convincing demonstration of that.

Incidentally, I don't believe anyone is advocating the idea that listening to music must induce a state of near-ecstasy all the time. It would indeed be exhausting to live entirely on a diet of Wagner, Sibelius, Puccini and Ommadawn!
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 16:28

Quote (Alan D @ April 15 2005, 15:52)
Yes, first there's the washing up, then there's the vacuum cleaning, and the dusting, and then - oh heck, there's that damn music to listen to. Chores upon chores.....

Yep. And there's that review I have to write, too. Gee, it's been ages since I last touched that song I have to finished... it's time to give it a try. And I'm not even taking the keyboard course anymore, so I don't have to devote lots of time and money to it!

(on a less jokey note, see below)

Quote
You've often spoken of Amarok, very sincerely and convincingly, as someone who feels passionately about it and is moved by it - who is in fact involved with it in a very emotional way. I was never (till now) in any doubt about that (and indeed it was that intensity of yours which made these discussions worth having). Are you sure you really mean this?


Sure. The emotional envolvement with Amarok came as a bonus. I wasn't looking for it. It just happened that I identifies myself a lot with the music, and it carries me away for good. But I don't have any emotional envolvement with most of Platinum, for example (perhaps not with North Star), and that's still one of my favourite albums my Mike. Same goes with a lot of stuff by Rush, King Crimson, The Residents, Wire, and I love all of that.

Quote
I can't help observing that this post, declaring that music is just one of those chores you have to get through, is not a very convincing demonstration of that.


Hey, I never said music was a chore. I occupy myself with music because I want to, because I like it, but it's time consuming nonetheless. Say, an album is normally 40 minutes, so each album I listen to takes away more than half an hour of my time. Not a trivial matter!


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olracUK Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 18:34

Well, Sir M, you have a choice. And it's not the blue wire/red wire one (only 20 seconds to save the earth).

Music is part of your life or it isn't. Art is not just for art's sake. It has to mean something, to challenge, or question, but mostly to get those grey brain cells active.

Amarok reaches all those parts, including that damn caterpillar.

If you see 40 minutes of your life as a "chore" or an important time when you could be doing something else, well, you chose to listen. Your post does give us the impression that you have better things to do. So it is an important part and you will have to accept that and stop going on about it.

Bottom line - the crunch question - do you enjoy music as an form in itself, without the analysis, just that straight to soul path? Do you enjoy Amarok as a unique creation?

I do. Even with that bloody annoying Thatcher bit.


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EeToN Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 21:38

Quote (familyjules @ April 15 2005, 15:58)
After all, none of us puts on Mike for background music really. We're pretty focused on the music.

Are you sure? :) It happened to me (at least) once that while programming subconsciously I noticed that I wasn't listening to any music, so I put something in the playlist, not watching what I was doing, and after 35 minutes I noticed suddenly that I was listening to Orabidoo and was quite amazed that I had listened to half of Five Miles Out without even noticing what I did. Not that it didn't feed well my brain. ;)


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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 00:07

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 15 2005, 18:36)
Yeah, but is it all about the music itself, or about the unifying act of joining voices in an unison to express worship? Music is just a vehicle to deliver that...

I'd not describe it as a vehicle, but rather as a tool. It doesn't have to involve voices - many religions place great importance on drumming, for example, and the relentless, repetitive rhythms can assist in achieving altered mental states. You do have to be open to it, though...
I'd say it's very much about the music, picked for precise effect.

Music is about a lot of things for me, but I can't ignore its effects on my mood (and indeed, my mood's effects on it), and that's really what's important to me much of the time. I posted elsewhere recently about Steve Hillage's music, and that would be a good example - I don't listen to it because it comes out well on the other side of a deep analysis (the odds were rather stacked against that from the moment he began singing about fish and the mystic properties of hurdy gurdies), but because I find it fun. The same goes for Amarok, really - it's a kind of rollercoaster ride, from the sublime to the ridiculous, and is very enjoyable for that reason. Of course there's more than that - I find the craftsmanship (and artistry) brilliant, for example, but that wouldn't be much without soul (pure technical ability isn't much on its own, in my opinion).

I agree with Alan on the point about it not just being music, but art in general which is necessary. Also that it needn't be all intense...which is no doubt what's attracted Mr BellEnd here (are those the wires to my headphones you guys are trying to cut there ? I was wondering why things were sounding funny. Still, just as long as you don't drop the caterpillar in my Citron Pressé when you put the mint leaves in...).
I'd agree with olracUK on what he said too.
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ktran
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Posted: April 16 2005, 01:08

It's a very difficult thing to explain in words, and it's also a very difficult thing to understand logically.

We can try to explain things like mood and emotion by deconstructing down to electromagnetic impulses being fired off in the brain, electrochemical reactions, and interactions down at an atomic level if you wish, but that doesn't change the fact that we have them and that we feel them.

There is a time for orchestrating and arranging series of themes and charting out melodic development, but there are other times, and sometimes in the course of a planned-out composition, where something much more primal is appropriate.

It's something that's impossible to understand until you experience it for yourself. You allow all of these synapses to fire and your knowledge of music theory and scale positions and modal systems to just settle in the back of your mind, and you "pluck" music from out of the air. You allow your mood to dictate what you play. Sometimes, what comes out isn't spectacular, but sometimes, great beauty can come out of it.

I used to play with a classically trained violinist friend of mind, and she couldn't wrap her head around the idea that in improvisation, the point is that you don't know what you're going to play next.

I'm not a religious man by any means, but when the notes just come and flow from the "ether" through my body and into my fingers, and when everything just "clicks," it's as close to a divine feeling as I've yet felt.

The engineer and scientist and the semi-trained musician in me all know that there's a logical, if infinitely complex, reason for it to be working, but in the end, it really doesn't matter.

MO himself said, during what were probably his most technically competent days, that "the mark of a good musician is to be able to play one note and mean it."

Even the most technically-minded 12-tone composers (Schoenberg, etc) were trying to evoke an emotional response with their work. TS Elliot, the great modernist poet who embraced logic and form over the emotion of romanticism, at the same time was trying to shock and awe his audience. Humans are not logical beings. At some point, all of the reasoning in the world will boil down to how it makes us feel.

Sir M, you strike me as a very talented young man who is very intensely passionate about his work, both in music, and in writing about music. But at the same time, your intensity might be standing in the way of some truly great stuff. Music shouldn't be a task, nor a mere occupation. If that's truly how you feel about it, then I can't help but weep for you. Slow down. Take a breath every so often. Realise and understand that the world isn't out to get you, and that you don't have to go out and prove to the world every time how brilliant you are. It will find its own way. It's already there.

There is so much more to it. Early man "discovered" music in the air, the sounds of the water, the thunder. He found that one tone followed by another conveyed one feeling, whereas a dissonant progression conveyed another. At its core, music is ALL about feeling. We don't just take in ideas and concepts, we "perceive" them, we filter them through our consciousness.

Don't deny that. What makes/made MO such a great composer is that he was able to use his innate technical ability to channel what were some very intense feelings in his music.

I've rambled on for quite a bit, and I do apologise. I've done what I've said I wouldn't do. I've left myself wide open too, I realise. Please be kind. I wish you nothing but the best.


rgds,

Khoa
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