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TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: Dec. 19 2004, 00:39 Hi everyone, was just reading the similarities in Mikes music post and it reminded me of this similarity which is an obvious plagiarism. We all know Mikes music was the first to be used as a crucial part of a Horror Movie, and this idea grew in popularity due to the Exorcist. There is an Italian Horror Movie called Deep Red released in 1975. Directed by Dario Argento and the music was performed by a band called Goblin. At the 1 hour 23 minute mark as the two main characters are breaking and entering into a school building at night, a piece of music begins which is almost identical to the section of music in Tubular Bells that runs from the 17 minute mark in Part 1 to the beginning of the introduction of the instruments. It is a little slower and less intricate but even the key changes are the same. If you have never seen this movie you must rent it and have a listen. Any comments? Tracy. -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Dec. 19 2004, 18:45 I think I already stated this somewhere else, but I'm repeating it here: I think that Claudio Simonetti (the mastermind behind Goblin) got a huge influence from the TB piano theme being used as a horror movie theme - the main theme from Deep Red, built on a keyboard riff with repeated notes and an irregular time signature, does indeed sound similar. But I don't think that his intent was to blatantly plagiarize TB - he just was very much influenced by it. This is why I think this: 1) Judging from Simonetti's bass riff, he knew much, much more of TB than just the opening theme... TB's bass riff doesn't feature in The Exorcist at all. If Simonetti really wanted to plagiarize TB's piano theme "used as a horror movie theme", he'd just have done a similar tune of his own [which he did, of course ] and stop there... he'd never have based one of his themes on the bass riff from TB, had he just been influenced by The Exorcist. So, IMHO, the fact that he somehow used TB's piano theme and that bass riff to build something scary (or meant as scary), owes much more to his style being influenced by TB, indipendently from The Exorcist, than by the use of TB in the William Friedkin movie.   2) Mike and TB were completely unknown in Italy in 1975 [and maybe they still are... every time I mention TB as "the Exorcist theme" to someone, they think that Mike plagiarized Deep Red!! ], but at that time Mr. Simonetti lived in London - and, being into prog rock, he may have got quite a good knowledge of the whole of TB a fairly long time before The Exorcist made it popular all over the world. Dario Argento himself, while making the movie, was not aware neither of The Exorcist nor of the fact that TB was in it. Anyway, as I stated in another topic ("Influence of TB theme on horror movie themes"), Simonetti was just the first one in a long series of people who were influenced by TB as a horror movie theme. Nowadays it's really hard to hear a horror movie theme which doesn't feature a tinkling piano. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Dec. 19 2004, 19:23 As an addition to all of the above, I may say that, AFAIK, Friedkin did not choose the beginning of TB as a "scary" theme, but as a spooky, nightmarish lullaby for Regan. On the other hand, Dario Argento's request to Simonetti was something like this: "I want music that makes terror creep all over people's spines when they hear it." -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: Dec. 19 2004, 20:12 I think I have heard Mike say himself that it is indeed the greatest compliment to have people imitate your work, and although I'm sure a lot of Deep Reds theme has been influenced by TB, it is this small section I speak of that is an obvious plagiarism and should not be allowed to be used. I wonder if Mike knew or did anything about it. There is no doubt that one stole this piece of music from the other and I certainly considered the possibly that it could have been the other way around, but TB and the Exorcist were both released before Deep Red. The piece that I am referring to is not the opening piano theme and not used in the Exorcist, obviously Simonetti had knowledge of the whole composition and not just what was used in the movie. I love the movie Deep Red and am not upset by this plagiarism, it's just like having more of Mike, but I can't understand how such a well known piece of music can be stolen and allowed to be released. Was there ever any discussion or confrontation between the two parties? I'm surprised that you imply there is not an obvious connection between the music from TB being used in the Exorcist and then being imitated for Deep Red, you could say that both Mike and Friedkin were ripped off. Where can I find your post 'the influence of TB on horror movie themes'? Tracy P.S.-what does AFAIK mean? Could it be, as far as I'm concerned? -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Dec. 20 2004, 07:47 My implication that The Exorcist has nothing to do with what Simonetti did with TB is simply based on the fact that the bass riff [yes, I know what's the "small section" you mention... I have the Deep Red soundtrack album ] does not appear in the Friedkin movie. As I said in my previous post, if Simonetti really wanted to imitate Friedkin (which I'm still not convinced he did), he'd never have used the bass riff - he'd rather have used the beginning of Part Two of TB, which is in The Exorcist. The reason why I'm not convinced of the 'plagiarism' theory is that Simonetti, being a professional composer, would've done a much better job if he really wanted to plagiarize TB: he'd have done a slightly different tune with the same instrumentation, the same arrangement and the same speed... i.e. he'd have done what Mike himself did, more or less, in TBII . He was fully capable of writing a tune just as complicated as the one in TB, there was no reason at all of writing a less intricate tune. Instead, he changed everything: the tune (no, it's not "almost identical"... most notes are different), the instrumentation, the arrangement and the speed. This is why I'm convinced that it was a matter of huge inspiration rather than plagiarism. I know that there's a very thin line between the two , but I think that Simonetti very cleverly managed not to step over that line. I also think it's highly unlikely that Mike is not aware of Deep Red; the movie was a huge hit in the whole of Europe and in America as well. I know for sure that he was unhappy with the use of TB by Friedkin, but AFAIK [i.e. "as far as I know" ] he never made any comment about the Deep Red score. My topic on the influence of TB on horror movie themes is in the (Original) Tubular Bells forum. It's a poll. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Dec. 20 2004, 08:51 It didn't go anywhere in the US, that's for sure. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: Dec. 29 2004, 02:16 Well I am not patient or technologically minded enough to compare the two pieces note by note, I'm sure YOU can find many differences, but in my mind, it is not complimentary to copy someones work that closely, just stealing. And as I said, he stole the piece of music from Mike Oldfields Tubular Bells and the idea of using it in a horror movie from Friedkin. Great movie by the way, I love it. Has David Hemmings in it who was also in Gladiator and died recently. Tracy. -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

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