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Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 11 2005, 09:16 Quote (Chicular @ Oct. 11 2005, 12:37) The melody is what makes the tune! Are you sure it's not the other way round? If a tune is just a succession of pleasant-sounding notes, then a melody would be what you get when a tune (or tunes ) is developed into a coherent whole. (In case anyone is foolish enough to think I know what I'm talking about, let me disillusion them immediately! I'm just trying to make sense of the dictionary! ) Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: Oct. 11 2005, 15:17 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 11 2005, 11:46) Merriam-Webster dictionary says this: Tune: a succession of pleasing musical tones or a dominant theme Melody: 1. a sweet or agreeable succession or arrangement of sounds or 2. a rhythmic succession of single tones organized as an aesthetic whole The first meaning of 'melody' is identical to the meaning of 'tune'. But the second meaning is I think what bee is talking about. Yep, that's exactly what I was wanting to say. What a marvellous book.Thanks! bee -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Oct. 12 2005, 03:10 Whatever the technical definition of tune/melody is, I agree that resolution could use one. However, getting back to the original topic, I don't mind the big voice. It's probably the most interesting aspect of the track. -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 13 2005, 12:57 Quote This illustrates my previous point perfectly by the way. I think TSODE is wonderfully rich in melody. In particular, Let There Be Light has for me the single most unforgettable and most profoundly moving melody in the whole of Mike's oeuvre. *Amarok pokes Alan D on the arm and reminds him that the melody originally came from him* So full of himself! -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 13 2005, 17:37 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 13 2005, 17:57) *Amarok pokes Alan D on the arm and reminds him that the melody originally came from him* Is that true? As you know, I'm neither the world's greatest expert on Amarok, nor even a sympathetic listener!! Which bit? Even if that is so (I presume I missed it because of my cloth-eared nincompoopness?), surely it's only in TSODE that it finds its full, most magnificent expression? Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Oct. 13 2005, 19:51 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 14 2005, 06:37) Is that true? As you know, I'm neither the world's greatest expert on Amarok, nor even a sympathetic listener!! Which bit? Even if that is so (I presume I missed it because of my cloth-eared nincompoopness?), surely it's only in TSODE that it finds its full, most magnificent expression? You're right Alan, it certainly isn't a major theme in Amarok. It only gets played twice, somewhere in the middle, I can't quite remember where. Certainly no-where near it's impact in TSODE. -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: Oct. 13 2005, 23:16 I must be a cloth eared nincompoop as well then because Amarok and TSODE are two of my favourite albums and I never picked up on that either. Not to sound derogatory to those people who can pick up on these things at all, but when I listen to an album, that is all I listen to and all I focus on. To be able to go, oh this bit has been taken from there, or this has similar qualities to that etc, implies to me that you are listening to it on more of a technical level rather than an emotional level. A level that I have never reached that's for sure. After many years, I still can barely play a piece of Mikes music, although instantly familiar, and name the album or section that is has come from. -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 06:49 Quote (TubularBelle @ Oct. 14 2005, 12:16) Not to sound derogatory to those people who can pick up on these things at all, but when I listen to an album, that is all I listen to and all I focus on. To be able to go, oh this bit has been taken from there, or this has similar qualities to that etc, implies to me that you are listening to it on more of a technical level rather than an emotional level. A level that I have never reached that's for sure. After many years, I still can barely play a piece of Mikes music, although instantly familiar, and name the album or section that is has come from. I wouldn't say that. Amarok is my favourite album because of the emotional impact it has on me, I'm certainly not listening to it on a mostly technical level. I just heard that little melody (I would bound to notice it after listening to the album so many times) and thought "I recognise that". I also listen to TSODE quite a lot, so it didn't take long to realise where I'd heard it first. -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 07:37 I've just spent an hour listening again to the devilish torment that is Amarok, and failed completely to hear the 'Let there be Light' tune. Can someone tell me at what time it occurs? I can't sit through the whole thing again without a long rest..... Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 07:54 Off the top of my head, I can think of one instance in Amarok where this tune appears, though there may be more, but I think that the harmonies are different, and also the instrumentation is completely different. I wouldn't go as far as saying it's the same thing as on Let There Be Light. Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 08:31 OK, Alan, after flicking through it to remember where it is, I've found it. The tune is played twice, starting at 8.37. It's definately there, but like Holger said it is very different in instrumentation and almost everything else. -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 09:28 Quote (raven4x4x @ Oct. 14 2005, 13:31) The tune is played twice, starting at 8.37. Nice one Alex. A good one to try on April 1st! Seriously, though - at 8.37? I can't hear anything even remotely resembling Let There Be Light. Are you sure 8.37 is right? Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 12:41 It's the exact same tune. It's even in the same key. Only in TSODE it's played on the Mike Oldfield Patented Guitar Tone #3 ™, and on Amarok, it's played on a penny whistle. I just found it odd/funny that a melody that is so small, insignificant in Amarok, overshadowed by much more divine and memorable material, becomes a major highlight on The Songs Of Distant Earth. There are two possibilities: either the tune is, indeed, outstandingly fantastic, or TSODE is just an ocean of nothing. And if you say it's the former, then indeed, Amarok is the goddamn best album ever made. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 13:49 I'm sitting here laughing... yes, Ok, thanks Sir M, I hear it now - that little twiddle on the penny whistle - yes, I see now that it is indeed a fragment of the same sequence of notes. Surely all that's happened here is that Mike hasn't (in Amarok) seen the potential of that fragment. But he does in TSODE (perhaps not even realising that he's already used that sequence in a minor role in Amarok). The way the tune is used in TSODE is crucially important I think. The sequence (on guitar) sets off a kind of hanging question, which is then 'answered' by the next guitar line (which I think is NOT in Amarok). The little twiddle in Amarok on the whistle doesn't have that 'hanging' quality - it remains just a twiddle - I don't know why that is. Maybe someone with a knowledge of music theory can explain? In TSODE what we might call the architecture of the melody is entirely different. Maybe here we are hitting bee's point about the difference between tune and melody. The tune is the same in both cases (as far as it goes), but it's the melody that counts? Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 14:22 Quote Surely all that's happened here is that Mike hasn't (in Amarok) seen the potential of that fragment. But he does in TSODE (perhaps not even realising that he's already used that sequence in a minor role in Amarok). That's the unbiased way to look at it. I wonder... it is possible that Mike didn't remember using that melody already (didn't he keep all his ideas in little pieces of paper in a jar, and then he picked one up randomly and worked with it?), but then again, he was always a fan of quoting himself - see the similar link between 'Cochise' in Guitars and 'Jewel In The Crown' in Tubular Bells III. There definitely is a difference in the way the tune is used. In Amarok, it's a counterpoint to the main, ascending guitar melody in the foreground. It's a contrasting colour. In 'Let There Be Light', it's part of the main melody - a call-and-response between two different parts. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 14:59 But Mike is famed for repeating himself and not just with TB type piano tunes. He quite often uses variations on a certain melody through seperate albums. I don't think there is anything weird at all in the fact that a tiny bit of Amarok is used in a different form in TSODE. Is it not little touches like this that give him his signature sound and compostional character? Its certainally one of the reasons I love his music so much, beat heavy eletronica aside obviously     Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 15:26 Quote (TOBY @ Oct. 14 2005, 19:59) I don't think there is anything weird at all in the fact that a tiny bit of Amarok is used in a different form in TSODE. Oh I entirely agree - actually, I agree with everything you said there. Those trademark self-quotations are indeed part of the reason the music haunts me, and it's not weird at all. The weird thing is that what started life as an almost unnoticeable countermelody in Amarok should later turn into one of the most profoundly moving themes in the whole of Mike's oeuvre. That takes some explaining! (Not sure I want to explain it, really! ) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 16:34 Quote (TOBY @ Oct. 14 2005, 14:59) Is it not little touches like this that give him his signature sound and compostional character? Erm, uh... yeah, err... I guess so. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Oct. 14 2005, 21:15 Really, any tune from Amarok could have been expanded into the basis of an album. I know he could have made a lot more of that melody on Amarok if he had wanted to. Perhaps he was saving it for later. -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

Baggiesfaninessex Group: Members Posts: 682 Joined: Mar. 2002 Posted: Oct. 15 2005, 14:03 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 14 2005, 15:26) That takes some explaining! (Not sure I want to explain it, really! ) Perhaps after a wee dram of Ardbeg? -------------- “A dog is not intelligent. Never trust an animal that's surprised by its own farts.” - Frank Skinner Back to top

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