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Topic: Variations on Themes< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 03:13

This recent post, by nightspore, regarding Tubular Bells II...

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Personally, it's my favourite. In classical terms it's the most sophisticated, too, in the attention given to leitmotifs, transformation of themes, etc. Mike's no doubt intense familiarity with every note of the original TB, and the great musical experience had had acquired in the meantime, clearly enabled him to see vast possibilities in the material, and to take advantage of it with some very skillful writing - without losing and, indeed, surpassing the emotional intensity of the original. It's a wonderfully joyous composition, too,whereas the first TB was impressive more because of its sinister feeling, its speaking of shadows.

...got me thinking about how Mike sometimes revisits melodies. Of course this occurs within individual albums, but I'm mainly referring to inter-album instances. In the case of Tubular Bells, I think the reconstruction exercises have been worth the effort and criticism of repetition. To me, "Introduction", "Sentinel", "Tubular World", "Secrets", "Harbinger", etc. (I'm probably missing one or two?) are beautiful pieces of music. I wish I were capable of disecting each and expounding their merits, but I can only say that I love them.

But Tubular Bells isn't the only example of the reuse of musical ideas. "Roses" might have been merely an obscure little gem within the monstrosity (and I mean that in the most flattering way) that is Amarok. Thankfully, we are given the rosebush, so to speak, in The Songs of Distant Earth. While it appears in several parts ("Let There Be Light", "Oceania", and "Ascension"), this tune is not treated as exploratorily as the variations of "Introduction", but rather as reinforcement of its pure melodic character. Its use on The Songs of Distant Earth gives "Roses" a stature and power that is surprising considering its original humility in Amarok.

I do find this revisiting/reworking/reconstructing of musical ideas fascinating. Perhaps that's partly due to my slowness in catching on to it. Really, I had to have someone point out the "Roses"/"Let There Be Light" connection, as well as some others.


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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 03:33

Well that's got me going back to those 2 albums this weekend!Damn.Never noticed a connection.Thanks Sweetpea. :)

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Alan D Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 03:49

Quote (Sweetpea @ May 16 2008, 08:13)
I had to have someone point out the "Roses"/"Let There Be Light" connection

I'm not surprised. I think it was Alex (ravenxxxx) and Sir M who pointed this out to me some time ago, and I had to play the requisite bit of Amarok over and over again before I realised what they were talking about. It seems so insignificant, in Amarok (indeed I wouldn't be able to find it again unless someone told me exactly where it is), that I find it hard to believe that Mike was conscious, when he was composing 'Let There Be Light', of having used that particular sequence of notes before.
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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 06:17

That reminds me that I meant to include the time for that "Roses" section on Amarok. It should be from 8:35 to approximately 10:00.

Caveman, if you haven't seen it already, you may find this analysis of Amarok helpful.

Alan, it must be because it's late for me, but I read "I find it hard to believe that Mike was conscious, when he was composing 'Let There Be Light'" several times before realizing what you were actually saying! Hehe. So, you feel it may have been a bit of accidental self-plagiarism? It doesn't strike me that way, but I certainly agree with its insignificance in the Amarok context. In fact, there are a number of little tunes in Amarok that I'd love to see expanded and given full-bloom. That was probably an inappropriate metaphor, but I think you know what I mean.


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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 07:03

Quote (Sweetpea @ May 16 2008, 11:17)
That reminds me that I meant to include the time for that "Roses" section on Amarok. It should be from 8:35 to approximately 10:00.

Ah, thanks SP! I just played that bit again, and I must say that if no one had suggested it beforehand, and even though I've listened before, I'd never have realised that tune is 'Let There Be Light'. Even now, as I listen, I'm having difficulty, picking out the notes and humming them, trying to persuade myself that they're exactly the same and not altogether believing it - I suppose because the context is so completely different.

My impression is still that it's purely accidental - Mike probably had little note sequences like this running round his head all the time, so occasionally he might hit on the same thing twice without realising it. Certainly I can't believe that when he sat down to make 'LTBL', he rummaged around in his Amarok kitbag and dragged out an obscure oldie-but-goldie that he thought would fit the bill.

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In fact, there are a number of little tunes in Amarok that I'd love to see expanded and given full-bloom.

My goodness, yes. That's largely why I find the album so frustrating - because so many potentially marvellous things are prematurely nipped in the bud (to continue your metaphor).

[I did wonder whether people might read only the first part of my sentence and wonder if I was claiming that LTBL was written by an unconscious Mike Oldfield; but thought I'd take the risk.]
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 08:07

Thanks Sweetpea.

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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 08:10

I forgot to add,in response to Alan's comment about the ideas going round his head....some of the ideas on Amarok are from at least 1968.The 2 cd edition of Children Of The Sun has a second disk with some bits of Mike playiong acoustic guitar solo.2 of the tracks have tunes found on Amarok.

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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 08:48

I believe one of my favourite instances of "melody recycling" - which I generally don't like, in Mike Oldfield terms - is Cochise, which uses a theme from Jewel in the Crown. I mean, I can't stand the latter song, and I would have never imagined that the "melody" would be ever worth anything, but Cochise makes a masterful use of it, so much that it's on my Top 5 Mike Oldfield 90's and 00's Songs list.

As for the Let There Be Light/Amarok link, I have a purposefully cynical view on it, but that's because I'm biased and PROUD OF IT!!

But Cochise is excellent, and that's me saying.


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Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: May 16 2008, 12:48

A confirmed Amarokian!

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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: May 19 2008, 01:44

Quote (The Caveman @ May 16 2008, 08:10)
some of the ideas on Amarok are from at least 1968.The 2 cd edition of Children Of The Sun has a second disk with some bits of Mike playiong acoustic guitar solo.2 of the tracks have tunes found on Amarok.

Oh, how interesting. Are there any portions of that floating 'round the net, do you think?

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 16 2008, 08:48)
one of my favourite instances of "melody recycling" - which I generally don't like, in Mike Oldfield terms - is Cochise, which uses a theme from Jewel in the Crown.

I do like both those pieces. You're right that there's quite a big difference in style, there, with "Cochise" having a more rockish style than the ambient (and I'm not sure if that's the appropriate term) "Jewel in the Crown". I'd had Guitars and "Cochise" was always one of my faves from that album. I was thrilled when I noticed that tune was also in Tubular Bells III, though it took me awhile to figure out where I'd heard it before. At the moment, I can't think of an instance of "melody recycling" where I thought 'Oh, I wish Mike hadn't done that'.

And - as I'm listening to Light + Shade as I type - I'd like to mention "First Steps". When I acquired L+S, I hadn't yet been exposed to the Tr3s Lunas album or game, but I loved the tune and its moodiness. I later found out it recycled the title track from TL (and I was aquiver with excitement at the discovery), but I think someone has mentioned it also borrows from one of TL's other tracks - which one is that?


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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: July 22 2008, 13:46

"Sprites" from Tr3s Lunas II. Yes, it's been bugging me for months.

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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 27 2008, 07:56

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 16 2008, 08:48)
I believe one of my favourite instances of "melody recycling" - which I generally don't like, in Mike Oldfield terms - is Cochise, which uses a theme from Jewel in the Crown. I mean, I can't stand the latter song, and I would have never imagined that the "melody" would be ever worth anything, but Cochise makes a masterful use of it, so much that it's on my Top 5 Mike Oldfield 90's and 00's Songs list.

As for the Let There Be Light/Amarok link, I have a purposefully cynical view on it, but that's because I'm biased and PROUD OF IT!!

But Cochise is excellent, and that's me saying.

First off, thanks, Sweetpea, for starting a topic with one of my quotations. I often overlook the non-album posts, and I've only just come across it.

As for Sir M's point, I think I prefer "Jewel in the Crown" to "Cochise". To me, the guitar riff in "Cochise" is too reminiscent of Led Zeppelin's "Whole Lotta Love" (not that I have particularly violent objections to LZ), and it's played as though it's the soundtrack to a 70s televised coverage of a car race. (The same "exciting" rhythm accompanied with fairly "distant" guitar sound so that the commentator's voice can be heard above it). To make a pun based on one of Sir M's favourite words, I'd call the piece "Co-Cheesy"!
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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: July 27 2008, 10:02

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 16 2008, 13:48)
I believe one of my favourite instances of "melody recycling" - which I generally don't like, in Mike Oldfield terms - is Cochise, which uses a theme from Jewel in the Crown. I mean, I can't stand the latter song, and I would have never imagined that the "melody" would be ever worth anything, but Cochise makes a masterful use of it, so much that it's on my Top 5 Mike Oldfield 90's and 00's Songs list.

As for the Let There Be Light/Amarok link, I have a purposefully cynical view on it, but that's because I'm biased and PROUD OF IT!!

But Cochise is excellent, and that's me saying.

I completely didn't see that... but yeah! I suppose its certainly inventive  :D

I've never been much of a fan of Guitars... none of its horrible but I don't jump up and down with excitement for any of it either, I'm afraid.


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Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 28 2008, 02:11

Quote (arron11196 @ July 27 2008, 10:02)
I've never been much of a fan of Guitars... none of its horrible but I don't jump up and down with excitement for any of it either, I'm afraid.

"Summit Day" ranks with the best pieces MO has produced, with its soaring melody, slowly-building crescendo, and mood of infinite yearning. The piece's scaling of heights also justifies its title, unlike "Cochise", which is unlikely to stimulate the Michael Ansara Appreciation Society!
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: July 28 2008, 08:58

Summit Day is quite possibly my favourite track on Guitars; I've said it elsewhere, but it's sort of Mike Oldfield's own Fake Plastic Trees, with a single theme played three times with ever increasing tension. True, it's hard to beat Fake Plastic Trees, but Mike gets pretty close, and that's saying something.

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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 28 2008, 10:21

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ July 28 2008, 08:58)
Summit Day is quite possibly my favourite track on Guitars; I've said it elsewhere, but it's sort of Mike Oldfield's own Fake Plastic Trees, with a single theme played three times with ever increasing tension. True, it's hard to beat Fake Plastic Trees, but Mike gets pretty close, and that's saying something.

I agree that both "Summit Day" and "Fake Plastic Trees" (as opposed, presumably, to "Genuine Plastic Trees") have a similar burgeoning structure.... but apart from that I can't see much of a resemblance. The rather monotonous strumming in FPT can't hold a candle to Mike's guitar work and soaring melody, and the yelping vocal always makes me think. rather, of EJ's "Rocket Man", the part where EJ sings "as high as a kite flies then". Maybe my negative view was shaped by a particularly silly film clip, with the singer in a supermarket trolley....
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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: July 28 2008, 12:17

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ July 28 2008, 13:58)
Summit Day is quite possibly my favourite track on Guitars; I've said it elsewhere, but it's sort of Mike Oldfield's own Fake Plastic Trees, with a single theme played three times with ever increasing tension. True, it's hard to beat Fake Plastic Trees, but Mike gets pretty close, and that's saying something.

Summit Day is the only track that I'll think about listening to, for sure, but I'll these days go for something else like Incantations Part IV (I don't listen to any album in full hardly ever, I like to mix-and-match these days) or maybe TSODE. I've tried getting into Radiohead in a big way a couple of times, but I've always found it a little too depressing. Its a shame; I know they are widely celebrated but I can't get past that feeling really. Porcupine Tree, which I love, CAN be depressing, but its less about dejection and more about melancholy, musically speaking, IMHO.

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Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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