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Almohan Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: June 2009 Posted: June 25 2009, 07:11 Very much to my surprise, I just found that searching the forum for "magma" or "vander" returns. . .nothing?! Maybe the story is known only in France, but a story there is indeed, and I think it's worth telling on such a forum as this one. So, when "Tubular Bells" became famous worldwide, a French guy named Christian Vander, who had created a group called Magma back in 1969, found that the main theme remembered him of something of his own. When he found about Mike Oldfied, he remembered the young English guy who'd been hanging around in The Manor in 1973 while Magma was working there on an album to be called "Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh", including one tune called "La Dawotsin". Vander thought the two melodies sounded so much alike that he decided not to release "La Dawotsin" after all, fearing the world would call him a cheater. The song finally made it to official release in 1981. So do the two things sound the same? I don't quite think so, but Chris Vander sure thought they did, as he chose to keep "La Dawotsin" secret. He is a French webpage about the story with two links, one you don't really need , and one to "La Dawotsin": http://magma.fan.free.fr/info003.html Of course my point isn't to write that M. O. stole the theme from somenone else, but I just really thought such a comprehensive forum as this needed to mention the story--so kindly don't flame me! Last, don't ask me either what the lyrics of "La Dawotsin" are. You want to know that Magma not only plays a musical genre labelled as "Zeuhl" (which mixes rock, jazz, avant-garde and choir singing), but Chris Vander sings in an invented language known as "kobaïen". . . .Hope you liked the story anyway. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1980 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: June 25 2009, 11:50 That was kind of funny for A. It sounded slightly Oldfield-ish but not to a significant degree. B. The male vocal sounded like MO of that time. C. It sounded like the band Focus minus the nice guitar playing. D. Mike's photo on that page looked like he was very pissed off. Like a dog(Eddy?) had taken a whiz on his fav. guitar.     Sorry, all-in-all, it was cute....but no big deal. My 2 cents worth. Jimbo -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

Almohan Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: June 2009 Posted: June 25 2009, 12:40 Quote (Scatterplot @ June 25 2009, 11:50) no big deal My opinion too. I'm all the more surprised that Vander decided to keep his song unreleased for fear he'd be called a plagiarist, as I don't think the two tunes resemble each other that much. Oh, and one thing I forgot to stress sufficiently is that M. O.'s demos date back to 1971 (or so we're told ), when Magma was in studio at The Manor in 1973. Back to top

hairy old hippy Group: Members Posts: 304 Joined: July 2005 Posted: June 25 2009, 12:43 Yeah there is a vague resemblence to Tubular Bells but also to a lot of the the prog/jazz of the time. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Oldfield ripped it off, subconciously or otherwise. At any rate Oldfield had recorded demos of the riff before arriving at The Manor. Seems a shame for Vander to have held off releasing his work, a bit of an over reaction maybe. -------------- Listen to Mohribold; an epic musical tapestry that weaves between a multitude of genres. Andrew Taylor's Mohribold album has proved very popular with fans of symphonic-rock, prog-rock, psych-folk and indeed Oldfield's classic albums! www.andrewtaylor.bandcamp.com Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1980 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: June 25 2009, 13:02 Well, I've known a few musicians, a couple of music PHD's, on and on....I've found that most musicians, especially the ones who don't fare as well as Oldfield, tend to "hype up" their recordings more than they are worth. Case in point: I met a guy where I work several times only a couple of months ago. Then one day he was gone and replaced by another employee, "on tour" I'm told. "On tour as in a band?" was my reply. Me and that employee went to the PC in my office to look him up, sure enough his band had a Myspace page with tour dates in NY, Chicago, MANY major cities in the US. The music, bland, stupid, boring. Why, why I ask myself. Who knows? Marketing? Is the US totally bored? I lean towards English bands. Don't ask me why. I guess they have delivered more arty "OOmphhhh" than the rest. MO, Moody Blues, YES, Genesis. I guess it's my engrams. Or maybe they are just better. Jim -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: June 25 2009, 14:36 I'll have to check out that Magma track when I can. I've read about those guys before, but never got to actually check them out. And now that you mention it, I'm sure I've read somewhere (maybe even here? I always thought the search feature in this board was severely limited or unreliable) someone claiming Mike stole the Tubular Bells motif from Magma. Maybe it was some other band? I don't know. But like it's been said, the Tubular Bells theme had been written years before Mike stepped into the Manor. I do know, though, that similarity between two songs is something people can disagree WILDLY about. Taking a recent case, many people argued that Coldplay had absolutely plagiarised Satriani for Viva la Vida, while I think the similarity between the two songs is barely superficial. I once read a review of Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason that claimed the solo at the end of Signs of Life was a note-for-note copy [his words, not mine!] of the intro of Yes's Roundabout, which is simply false. Some people just see similarities where they don't exist; and Vander, in that case, was probably not concerned with the similarity HE saw between Tubular Bells and his piece, but with the similarity the PUBLIC would perceive. It's sad, really. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Olivier Group: Super Admins Posts: 1865 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: June 25 2009, 15:14 It's fascinating how we don't all see the same similarities. Music or images (some find that a caricature is great, others find it doesn't portrait the original). If we'd all agree on similarities, perhaps we'd also also all love and dislike the same things? Or loving something and perceiving it in a certain way are not linked. Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: June 25 2009, 16:05 Quote (Almohan @ June 25 2009, 11:11) Very much to my surprise, I just found that searching the forum for "magma" or "vander" returns. . .nothing?! You just have to know where to look TB / Magma ?????? Origin of the Bell??? MAGMA versus MIKE OLDFIELD The search engine can be a bit weird sometimes - I find that selecting to search from the beginning and newer often works where selecting today and older doesn't, though in this case, both seem to work ok (though today and older didn't reveal this topic). I have to say I don't think the two pieces are similar enough to say that one is plagiarised from the other. It depends which parts you choose to focus on though... Back to top

Almohan Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: June 2009 Posted: June 26 2009, 07:40 [quote=Korgscrew,June 25 2009, 16:05][/quote] Quote You just have to know where to look Oh. I did believe I knew how to handle the thing, but it looks like I'll have to keep learning. Sorries 'n' thanks. Back to top

Almohan Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: June 2009 Posted: July 06 2009, 06:52 Just for the sake of completeness: I wrote to the webmaster of the site dedicated to Magma, to let him know that contrary to what was written there the TB demos are now available, for instance on the TB 2003 ADVD. In his answer, he states that as recently as November 2008, in the leaflet to the digipack reissue of Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh, Vander maintains that « Un certain Mike Oldfield a volé ma musique et plus précisément des extraits de Mekanïk et de la Dawotsin. [...] C'est un thème que j'ai joué devant lui [au Manor Studio], sans même pouvoir imaginer qu'il aurait le culot de le reprendre et de se l'attribuer. Il n'a jamais rien refait dans cet esprit d'ailleurs... »  which can translate as « A Mike Oldfield stole my music, particularly excerpts from Mekanik and La Dawotsin. [. . .] It is a theme I played before him [at Manor Studio], not knowing he'd have the nerve to use it and call it his. He never did anything that sounds the same again, for that matter. . .» Then again, the webmaster states that Mike Oldfield is known for appropriating tunes, especially traditionals (comment?). So I'm not starting a flame war again, just adding another fact to the file (while enjoying my Deluxe TB ). Back to top

Jesse Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: Aug. 2007 Posted: July 06 2009, 12:14 did he not already stole it from bach? Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: July 06 2009, 12:21 Quote (Jesse @ July 06 2009, 17:14) did he not already stole it from bach? Indeed he did and Mike himself admitted as much here Back to top

Almohan Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: June 2009 Posted: July 06 2009, 12:28 I see. So now Vander has to go after Bach too. . . Back to top

Jesse Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: Aug. 2007 Posted: July 06 2009, 12:38 Quote He never did anything that sounds the same again, for that matter. . .» lol he hasn't got a clue has he?! Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: July 06 2009, 12:41 Yeah if he ever catches up with him that Bach dude better watch his err Back yeah!..Mmmm maybe they could settle the matter out of court and he could offer to give him a Bach-Vander... Sorry,I`ll get me coat. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: July 06 2009, 18:18 I already said it in the other topics about this and I'll repeat it here: there is just a very slight similarity in the rhythm structure. The melody has absolutely nothing in common. This is very much the same pathetic attempt as the one made some time ago by that guy from The Rubinoos who was trying to prove that Avril Lavigne plagiarized a song of his... when in fact the incriminating element - i.e. the call-and-response chorus "Hey! [Hey!] You! [You!]" - goes all the way back to the Stones' "Get Off of My Cloud". And while I am here repeating things which I've already said over and over , why doesn't Mike sue these guys for plagiarism? Also, I know for a fact that Andrew Lloyd Webber plagiarized Pink Floyd's "Echoes", but Roger Waters didn't sue him because he (Waters) couldn't be bothered. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Olivier Group: Super Admins Posts: 1865 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: July 06 2009, 18:31 Mike also says that everybody copied him, I remember he said the Intel jingle was a rip-off. I think TB is more of a rip off to Lord Vander than Intel is to TB. I think Mike didn't copy Bach at all, he is just saying it for marketing reasons (he came with that years after the release if I'm not mistaken). I think he was inspired by Lord Vander, probably consciously, but I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it's like Mozart doing something great out of Salieri's mediocre tune in Amadeus. That's just my opinion and gut feelings. So I think that Mike is not saying the truth about it, which is not very nice, but you have to admit that journalists and fans can be quite irritating. Also, we don't all perceive things equally, so some people find strong similarities when others don't. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: July 06 2009, 20:26 Quote (Ugo @ July 06 2009, 18:18) Also, I know for a fact that Andrew Lloyd Webber plagiarized Pink Floyd's "Echoes", but Roger Waters didn't sue him because he (Waters) couldn't be bothered. Actually, if there was any plagiarism here it would have been the other way round. Waters was fond of claiming that  Lloyd Webber had ripped him off, until Lloyd Webber politely pointed out that his music (from something called "Gumshoe", if I remember correctly) predated Echoes. Poor old Lloyd Webber - I don't much care for his music, but he at least doesn't go around hoping that others will break his opponents' fingers (this was Waters' wish on "It's a Miracle", or whatever his over-lyricized dirge was called). Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: July 07 2009, 05:48 Quote (Olivier @ July 06 2009, 23:31) Mike also says that everybody copied him, I remember he said the Intel jingle was a rip-off. I think TB is more of a rip off to Lord Vander than Intel is to TB. I think Mike didn't copy Bach at all, he is just saying it for marketing reasons (he came with that years after the release if I'm not mistaken). I think he was inspired by Lord Vander, probably consciously, but I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it's like Mozart doing something great out of Salieri's mediocre tune in Amadeus. That's just my opinion and gut feelings. So I think that Mike is not saying the truth about it, which is not very nice, but you have to admit that journalists and fans can be quite irritating. Also, we don't all perceive things equally, so some people find strong similarities when others don't. Yeah I`m still not fully convinced either way myself.But I agree even if Mike did "consciously" go out to do his own "take" on Vander`s piece if you like.Then personaly I don`t see anything wrong with that at all,as long as it`s not downright plagarisim like you say.Which to me it most definetely was not.Anything after that and I`d be purely speculating I guess,but I do wish Mike was a little more "open" and "honest" with some of his influences.I can`t recall him ever mentioning Enigma for instance.Who were undoutably a massive influence on him for better or worse from about 93-05.He`d rather much prefer to be an enigma himself I suppose.   The Intel jingle though,I mean that`s really stretching it surely?Maybe what he meant by that was the amount of times Intel keep releasing updated versions of their product.Which then turns out to be not so greatly different  from the previous one. Back to top

Jesse Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: Aug. 2007 Posted: July 07 2009, 07:02 Quote (Dirk Star @ July 07 2009, 05:48) Quote (Olivier @ July 06 2009, 23:31) Mike also says that everybody copied him, I remember he said the Intel jingle was a rip-off. I think TB is more of a rip off to Lord Vander than Intel is to TB. I think Mike didn't copy Bach at all, he is just saying it for marketing reasons (he came with that years after the release if I'm not mistaken). I think he was inspired by Lord Vander, probably consciously, but I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it's like Mozart doing something great out of Salieri's mediocre tune in Amadeus. That's just my opinion and gut feelings. So I think that Mike is not saying the truth about it, which is not very nice, but you have to admit that journalists and fans can be quite irritating. Also, we don't all perceive things equally, so some people find strong similarities when others don't. Yeah I`m still not fully convinced either way myself.But I agree even if Mike did "consciously" go out to do his own "take" on Vander`s piece if you like.Then personaly I don`t see anything wrong with that at all,as long as it`s not downright plagarisim like you say.Which to me it most definetely was not.Anything after that and I`d be purely speculating I guess,but I do wish Mike was a little more "open" and "honest" with some of his influences.I can`t recall him ever mentioning Enigma for instance.Who were undoutably a massive influence on him for better or worse from about 93-05.He`d rather much prefer to be an enigma himself I suppose.   The Intel jingle though,I mean that`s really stretching it surely?Maybe what he meant by that was the amount of times Intel keep releasing updated versions of their product.Which then turns out to be not so greatly different  from the previous one. sorry but it's a bit of a wild guess that he was inspired by enigma. I am a composer myself and people often go like 'woah, you must be SO inspired by vangelis and jarre and tangerine dream'. Yeah whatever, hardly ever heard any tunes by these guys. Just because the usage of instruments and patches might sound the same doesn't mean it inspired eachother persé. He could have heard similar music by other artists, like my so called 'vangelis' music is actually very derrived by a weird mix between chemical brothers and songs of distant earth ^^ Back to top

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