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Topic: The Star's Light + Shade review< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 27 2007, 15:21

Quote (onion @ Aug. 26 2007, 21:10)
try google for Paris Hilton latest and greatest album/song whatever she made.....there is a 100 % moron for you....she is even so lame that she probably got some sort of a technician to switch the knobs in the computer program for her so that "music" came out of the speakers..  ;)

Well there you have it - you've hit the nail on the head yourself there. Those artists don't make 'their' music. Sometimes they write it (I'm not sure about Paris Hilton), usually they perform some of it (often just the vocals and not necessarily all of them), but the programming, arranging and engineering is handled by other people. Those people tend to be ridiculously good at what they do; it may be formulaic and lacking in true subtlety, but it's a sound that sells, and they're experts at getting it. That's the difference with Mike - he's not just the name on the album, he's usually the guy who does a lot of the work too...not that it necessarily makes the album better.

It's clear to me that there's quite a lot of Mike in those tracks; he's done more than just start up a loop and let it play for the whole length of the album. They all have structure. Sometimes the structure is quite basic, other times it's a bit more complex, but it's always more than the exact same thing going round and round. Some tracks admittedly don't develop much, but I personally get the impression that all of them had more thought put into them than Mike turning on the computer, playing a loop, going "ooh, that's nice" and letting it run for five minutes. That's the difference between Light + Shade and the music of the true morons of this world.
Sure, there are people out there, some of them quite young, who could create music that's just as good or better. They're not just any old people - they're very talented people. As Alan said I'd say...if anyone can do it, how come so few actually manage it? I've done it and, from my perspective at least, I'd say there's more to it than may meet the ear at first.

With all that said, I never took to Light + Shade much. I rather felt that it was an album which had the seeds of something very interesting in it, just they were still growing and were rather swamped by weeds. I'm not sure I'd agree with the review that there are no memorable tunes there, as I can still recall a number of them, but equally, there are a good few I struggle to remember at all...I suppose the fact is, a large chunk of it didn't really excite me. The kind of craftsmanship that went into The Songs Of Distant Earth wasn't there. The mixes also all had the rather 'hard' sound that mixing in Logic seems to impart (I've not done extensive tests to get to the bottom of quite why that is, I know only that when I've worked with the same material in both Logic and Pro Tools, the mix has come out of Pro Tools sounding better than it did coming out of Logic...but there could be all sorts of reasons for that, to be fair on Logic. That said, compare Light + Shade with Tres Lunas. Tres Lunas - mixed on the Neve Capricorn - sounds much smoother to me). Personally, I feel he would have had a much stronger album if he'd discarded half the material and worked more intensely on the remaining parts. In case anyone is about to pop up with the old argument of Mike just doing the album for the money (with him therefore having knocked out two discs' worth as quickly as possible), I can guarantee you that the record company is making him pay for the fact that it's a double album - it'll be counted as a more costly special format, and a deduction will be made from his royalties to cover that, at the most unreasonable rate they can dream up. Cutting it down to a single album would have got him greater royalties...so clearly the reasons for it being a double album are artistic; he must have felt that producing two CDs' worth of music rather than one was the best use of his time. I can't say I agree, but then what's done is done...and Mike wouldn't have listened to my opinion anyway ;)
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Aug. 27 2007, 15:42

Quote (Holger @ Aug. 27 2007, 14:19)
Quote (TOBY @ Aug. 27 2007, 19:57)
The fact of the matter is modern technology has made it very, very easy to make music (and for that matter other art) badly and blandly. You only have to turn Radio One on during the day to hear it.

It's still not nearly as easy as many seem to think to take it to a level of professionalism that would get it on Radio One.

Well thats very very true of course. I don't think you'd find a single track played on Radio One that wasn't technically brilliant and of course modern technology has, as Mike has pointed out in interviews, made it much much easier for people to make some very technically good music with nothing more than a home PC. But the ease with which its made also means the world is swamped with bland eletronica simply because it is easy to do. I actually fancied my hand at doing it a few years back and forked out a fair whack of money for all the gear but I realised pretty quickly that in order to do it well and with some degree of depth its got be well and truly your chosen art form and something you really study at and do well like playing the guitar or learning the violin. I also decided that the time and money I was wasting producing very mediocre garbage bin eletronica would be better spent tracking down and listening to people who were genuinely talented and good at it. Best move I ever made, I discovered some fantastic music.

I think in music I really admire people who do something and really focus on doing it well fine tuning what they do in whatever genre it is. I less like music that seems half hearted and comes across as rather pedestrian. Certainly Mike in the past practiced the former though in recent years I would say he's been guilty of the latter, for me anyway.
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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Aug. 27 2007, 17:06

I would like to comment here.


To be completely honest. I agreed for the most part of the review. Yes Mike is a geinus and yes, there are very few tracks on the albums that I feel are memorable.

Whoever mentioned that electronic music was easily made by morons has obviously not done his homework ;)

I am a big fan of lots of diffrent genres. these days it has been mainly been progressive bands like Spocks beard etc, but also I am, (and have been for a long while) a big fan of electronic music. Not only do I love a lot of it, I enjoy creating it. Personally sometimes i feel it a bit of a challenge.

I love going to the small events of progressive house/Trip hop/Lap-off music, and I regularly am one to meet up with the DJ's/Artists afterwards to learn some things  - to be honest - I have never met a "Moron" yet.

As Korgscrew kindly noted - It wasnt Britney spears or paris hilton that produced thier tracks.. it was producers and engineers who are experts at making a sound that sells. I really am not a big fan of Light and Shade, but i can still appreciate the talent needed to make decent electronic music.. even if I think there is much better music out there.

Also - I think onions remark about the car accident was a horrific thing to say.


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onion Offline




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Posted: Aug. 27 2007, 17:34

Quote (jonnyw @ Aug. 27 2007, 23:06)
I would like to comment here.


To be completely honest. I agreed for the most part of the review. Yes Mike is a geinus and yes, there are very few tracks on the albums that I feel are memorable.

Whoever mentioned that electronic music was easily made by morons has obviously not done his homework ;)

I am a big fan of lots of diffrent genres. these days it has been mainly been progressive bands like Spocks beard etc, but also I am, (and have been for a long while) a big fan of electronic music. Not only do I love a lot of it, I enjoy creating it. Personally sometimes i feel it a bit of a challenge.

I love going to the small events of progressive house/Trip hop/Lap-off music, and I regularly am one to meet up with the DJ's/Artists afterwards to learn some things  - to be honest - I have never met a "Moron" yet.

As Korgscrew kindly noted - It wasnt Britney spears or paris hilton that produced thier tracks.. it was producers and engineers who are experts at making a sound that sells. I really am not a big fan of Light and Shade, but i can still appreciate the talent needed to make decent electronic music.. even if I think there is much better music out there.

Also - I think onions remark about the car accident was a horrific thing to say.

***HUH***?

What car accident?,- I was making a comparison between a crappy album and a freak accident....an accident I made up while writing...I have never heard such thing happen in the real life and I was just trying to be funny....sorry if the irony and sarcasm went over your head, my bad  :/

Korgscrew, thank you for your explanation.....English is my 3rd language so maybe I have used the wrong term in "moron"...(don´t know what to call it instead)..

I´m not a musician and are not technically profound in making machine music....but one of the the big troubles I have with L&S is, that I know MO makes *1000 overdubs* in his albums...I think the listener appreciate this, in fact that´s one of the things that make it MO´s work. I think I can hear this in his records....they are very dynamic and full of life (even the quiet ones)...  in L&S I just can´t hear any of this....it is so soulless for me to listen to....like eating cardboard when you know you can have the red meat with chianti and thats what pisses me off.  I don´t know WHY this album was made but I would be really surprised to hear if it had sold more than 200.000 ex.
L&S was so bad, so MO almost lost me as a future buyer of his works....but the latest "buzz" about his classical record gave me small hope again. I guess time will tell ..

I need some soul in my music....I think I´m gonna listen to Steve Winwood "higher Love"  .....swing that booty Chaka Khan...ohhh yeaah baby      :cool:

Mike


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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Aug. 27 2007, 17:40

Quote
What car accident?,- I was making a comparison between a crappy album and a freak accident....an accident I made up while writing...I have never heard such thing happen in the real life and I was just trying to be funny....sorry if the irony and sarcasm went over your head, my bad  


I can understand you were trying to be funny, but it was needlessley graphic.. the album was bad.. but nothing is THAT bad ;)


The rest of my comment was me essentially saying that Most electronic music isn't made by morons.

I dont like L+S either however, Im just pointing out that electronic music is'nt moronic.


--------------
Grand piano.
Reed and pipe organ.
Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
Digital sound processor.
And Tubular bells.

Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com

Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com
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onion Offline




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Posted: Aug. 27 2007, 22:45

Quote (jonnyw @ Aug. 27 2007, 23:40)
I dont like L+S either however, Im just pointing out that electronic music is'nt moronic.

Spot on!....You´re exactly right..it is the buyers that are morons!

Todays electronic music is made with deliberate "purpose", very cold and hard calculations because of intense GREED!  is like going in the supermarket where a psychologist have made the floorplan...you have to pass the electronic section, numerous items with 25% sale of it to get to the milk and while you stand in line to pay for your shopped items, you can watch the candy section and dribble over a mars bar and if you have kids, you know they gonna have some   :/

It´s like the greedy record company's think : oooh we need another 5 mill. $ in our vault.....make some with our cash cow no. 1:
launch a new britney spears record...use a preset loop lasting 4.03 minutes, make some cheesy lyric, make a music video... put her in a skimpy dress and let some male dansers hump her legs.   oooh yeah...make anonymous call to the tabloids to make some headlines, say she was abused as a child or her mother was a crackpot...it will make tons of money..

another record company, 10 meters down the street : oooh we need another 7 mill. $ in our vault, make some record with our cash cow no. 2, N Sync:
use a preset loop lasting 3.57 minutes, make some cheesy lyric, make a music video, put the boys in sexy clothes and let female dancers in skimpy outfit, hump their legs.  oooh yeah  ...we need to make some headline news...call the tabloid press and say one of them have an addiction, one is a sensitive gay crying after each concert and perhaps we could say that no. 3 has problems with the law.....it will make tons of money..

Of course the record companys should make money, nobody works for free, but to me it´s all about greed greed greed now a days.

The ultimative spit in the face is the reunion of Spice Girls..what a fucking sick joke that is... they need a hard reality check but the greed is just to strong...

Sorry for ranting and raving but the last 10-15 years of making music, just make me sad and angry....it´s soulless and everybody makes the same shit..

I have to stop now...the more I write the more angry I get    :(

Mike


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2007, 04:27

Quote (onion @ Aug. 28 2007, 03:45)
You´re exactly right..it is the buyers that are morons!

Many of the people who've responded in this thread have made rational, intelligent and informative comments on this issue.  You haven't understood or absorbed any of them. I don't think you've even tried to. And I object to your assertion that people who buy music that you dislike are morons. English may not be your native language, but that doesn't excuse your ignorance and offensiveness.

The world is full of the most astoundingly fine music. There is so much magnificent music available now, accumulated over centuries, that in a lifetime you can't possibly listen to all of it. Yet you rant (at length) about the fact that the last few years haven't produced any music to please you. What a shame. And what a waste of time.
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onion Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2007, 05:44

hmm...waste of time..... I got you to hit the keyboard didn't I?  :D

Does this mean that I´m NOT on your christmas card list then? ...because I just couldn´t bare it, if thats the case ...it would brake my heart  :cool:

I will give you a hint (for free) ...don´t get so worked up every time I write in here...don´t read my topics and don´t answer...it will save you a ton of money in your budget for blood pressure medicine.

Have a very nice day Alan and since I´m not getting a card...Happy fucking christmas  :)

Mike


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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2007, 08:33

Quote (onion @ Aug. 28 2007, 10:44)
don´t get so worked up every time I write in here...don´t read my topics and don´t answer...

I'd instead suggest that you don't write things which will get people worked up. If you think that the only solution to stopping your posts from getting people worked up is for people not to read them, then I'll be happy to help implement that solution, but I have a feeling that you wouldn't be too happy with the way I'd approach it...

Please also keep in mind the section of the guidelines that says "Critical posts are fine if they are constructive". Some of this thread really hasn't been (and some of it has). Please try to help make sure it doesn't go any further in the wrong direction.
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onion Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2007, 09:17

Quote (Korgscrew @ Aug. 28 2007, 14:33)
If you think that the only solution to stopping your posts from getting people worked up is for people not to read them, then I'll be happy to help implement that solution, but I have a feeling that you wouldn't be too happy with the way I'd approach it...

Wauw...thank you dear,
With the pending threat, I stand corrected...I will make further comments in here short and sweet, just as my master likes it  :D

To further implement a higher success rate, I will from now on, play LIGHT & SHADE loud each time someone from this forum thinks I´m out of line...
This will either cure me or kill me (pretty sure I´d need to fill out a organ donor card shortly)   :laugh:

crap..

Mike


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2007, 11:32

Quote (Alan D @ Aug. 28 2007, 04:27)
The world is full of the most astoundingly fine music. There is so much magnificent music available now, accumulated over centuries, that in a lifetime you can't possibly listen to all of it. Yet you rant (at length) about the fact that the last few years hasn't produced any music to please you.

You haven't got his point, Alan: fact is that the music industry, which is over one hundred years old, only became greedy 10 or 15 years ago. :)

Thank goodness the forum has adopted the "if you get angry it's your own fault" approach, so we can get our facts straight. Even Korgscrew has joined in.

*reads closely*

... oh...

... um... pretzels, anyone?


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2007, 11:59

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Aug. 28 2007, 16:32)
You haven't got his point, Alan

There wasn't a point worth getting, Sir M.

*helping myself to a pretzel, with a nod*

Attempting now to nudge this thread gently back vaguely in the direction of the topic: I listened again to Light and Shade yesterday, which was an interesting and, I must say on the whole, pleasant experience with one or two real highlights (and admittedly a few winces here and there). I still think the explosion of guitar playing in Tears of an Angel is one of the most memorable things MO has done - all the more so for succeeding in being strangely surprising no matter how many times I hear it. I'm not sure I'm explaining this very well - obviously, I do know it's coming, but there's always a feeling of 'I don't remember it being this good!'

Does anyone have any thoughts on that? How do you make music that consistently achieves an element of surprise even after many listenings?
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Matt Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2007, 11:59

I am not sure the music industry only recently became greedy. I imagine there have always been greedy elements (unfortunately part of human nature).

I wonder if it is rather that the public are buying the music made by greedy portions of the music industry more than other portions?


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Matt Offline




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Posted: Aug. 28 2007, 12:05

Dragging myself back on topic...

My concern with Light and Shade (a minor concern, I am happy to have bought the album and have it in my collection). Is that I have a huge respect for Mikes talent and abilities and I don't see them represented to their fullest in this album. The Tears of an Angel solo is great but much of the rest of the album - whilst I acknowledge the technical skill in producing it - doesn't have much in the way of greatness about it for me - or the reviewer (hey, definitely back on topic! )


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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2007, 05:36

L+S does have some good music in it and I agree with Korgscrew the potential of it is definitely better than the finished reality (he's also bang on about the production of Tres Lunas sounding far better) Tears of an Angel is superb and I like Surfing for the guitar break which is fantastic (more like this please Mike) Its that more powerful yet subtle side of Mike I've always liked. There's a few ok piano tracks on the Light part of it which are quite nice too. It is the definitely the MO album that spends the most time on the shelf though. Tracks like Slipstream, Resolution etc I can't even remember. Even the short go nowhere tracks on Voyager I can hear in my head if I try.
Mike has said that L+S was an experiment in working with music software alone and has all but admitted it was a failure, thats why he's bought his big expensive digital mixing desk. I just hope Music of the Spheres doesn't end up sounding as over produced as Mike sometimes  makes things.
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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2007, 15:25

Too much onion is making my eyes water.

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I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY.
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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: Aug. 29 2007, 18:04

Quote (The Big BellEnd @ Aug. 29 2007, 20:25)
Too much onion is making my eyes water.

:D

--------------
Grand piano.
Reed and pipe organ.
Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
Digital sound processor.
And Tubular bells.

Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com

Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Aug. 30 2007, 18:27

Quote (TOBY @ Aug. 29 2007, 11:36)
I just hope Music of the Spheres doesn't end up sounding as over produced as Mike sometimes  makes things.

Well, given the (apparently) extensive amount of remixing that Mike had done on it, MotS will very probably do sound over-produced. But, to be completely frank and honest, I don't care. What I care about is: does it sound good to me? If it does, amen. :) If it doesn't, I shall simply listen to it once and then put it aside. But in neither case will I care about it being over-produced or not... ;)

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Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
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