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Topic: The original mix, Who has it digitally?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
imhotep Offline




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Posted: Sep. 06 2008, 10:42

Thanks for the mp3.
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Bassman Offline




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Posted: Sep. 06 2008, 15:13

Sorry, Warlock.  I respectfully disagree.  I believe noise reduction of the type you speak of is possible.  Just not with off-the-shelf consumer software.  I have not listened to the copy you linked to.  Are you suggesting that your copy sounds better than the Martin Bartosik copy?

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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Sep. 06 2008, 16:00

@ Bassman: I listened to them both (Warlock's/Arrian's and Martin B.'s) and the former does sound better. If you don't mind the occasional pops. :)

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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Sep. 06 2008, 17:57

Warlock, lemme download your HR and run it thru my software. See what happens.
Jim


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warlock Offline




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Posted: Sep. 06 2008, 21:38

Links to HR are on the previous page ;)

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Bassman Offline




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Posted: Sep. 07 2008, 15:29

Sorry again, Warlock.  I listened to your copy carefully and it's not just occasional pops, as Ugo described.  There is also distortion throughout that muddied the separation and "air" between the instruments (it seemed to be ripped at too high a volume setting), as well as turntable rumble.  The extraneous noise at the start of Part 2 was painful to listen to.  I couldn't help but notice the file was 160 kbps.  That's probably sufficient for drawing a comparison here, but too low a bitrate for thorough, critical listening.

You definitely score points just for having procured a copy of the original mix, not to mention the credibility you gain by being a young-ish MO enthusiast in the first place, but the vinyl is too damaged to make the listening experience an enjoyable one.

I'm not saying the Martin Bartosik version is perfect by any means, but on that version there is no vinyl hiss, no groove swish, practically no clicks, no measurable loss in dynamics or reduction of high and low frequencies, and I find the instruments very well-defined.  It's simply not as loud as yours.  Louder does not mean better.  If someone perceives a comfortable feeling from hearing old vinyl, then more power to them.  I have tons of it, myself.  But in my opinion that feeling is only nostalgia, and not an objective measurement of superiority.

Please remember the only opinion I'm expressing here is my own.  I share your joy and enthusiasm for HR, and didn't mean to "pee on your parade".  Hold on to your copy.  As Scatter said, it's gold.


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warlock Offline




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Posted: Sep. 07 2008, 18:29

@Bassman i haven't got time to fully respond to that right now but I just have to get one thing clear: this is not my copy, it's Arrian's.

Quote
It's simply not as loud as yours.  Louder does not mean better.

It's not about the volume level. Martin's version just seems muffled, a bit more flat and it lacks space. In Arrian's the sound of accoustic guitar strings is just spreading in very natural way, in Martin's it seems like coming from behind some thin curtain. Of course it's superior to BOXED mix in every imaginable way (the sound, the separation of instrumets and the mix itself) yet still if we make a reference point of Arrian's version we can clearly see that noise/clicks/hiss reduction was made at the cost of the things I mentioned.

Well something for something - either clear muffled sound or the "dirty but more alive" one.


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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Sep. 07 2008, 18:42

Quote (warlock @ Sep. 08 2008, 00:29)
@Bassman - i haven't got time to fully respond to that right now but I just have to get one thing clear: this is not my copy, it's Arrian's.

Yes, but didn't you say that your copy was the same? Or of the same quality? Or am I wrong? I'm getting a little bit confused here... :)

By the way, my opinion on the quality of Arrian's copy vs. Martin's is that I have no opinion. :D It may be because my ears are a little bit untrained to allow me a clear hearing of all the subtleties you are mentioning, but to me the sound quality of the two copies is pretty much equal. Arrian's has clicks and pops, Martin's hasn't. But as far as sound quality is concerned, to me they're even.

EDIT: Thanks for clearing up the confusion... ;)


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warlock Offline




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Posted: Sep. 07 2008, 18:45

Quote (Ugo @ Sep. 07 2008, 18:42)

didn't you say that your copy was the same?

Yes, it's literally the same  :laugh:

+
1) notice those little things '...' in my post ;)
2) i thought that posting here link to Arrian's site won't let anyone here to have any doubts whose version it is :D


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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Sep. 07 2008, 19:01

Well, I wouldn't want this to get too deep into technical details - otherwise it'll be going straight into Tubular Tech, won't it? :D - but I think that Martin's mix (because that's what it actually is - a mix) sounds a little bit more muffled and less spacey than Arrian's 'vinyl rip' because the software he used to remove clicks and hisses also removed some of the highest frequencies in the original recordings - I think most noise reduction software, regardless of its tecnological advancement level, somehow does that. So maybe the acoustic guitar in Martin's mix sounds like it's playing from behind a curtain because its highest treble levels have been brought down by the software, and of course Mike's acoustic guitar had a tendency to get very, very treble-ish, especially on his early works (maybe because it was closely miked, I don't really know). So I guess you're right in saying that Martin's use of noise reduction software had its cost. ;)

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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Sep. 07 2008, 20:40

I downloaded your copy of pt1 and tried to clean it up, it's just too far gone, the turntable rumble can't be removed. The UK Porky cut I bought was very quiet. Perhaps one day when I'm not "Hergest Ridged" out, I''l go back and tweek some settings, add a little high freek EQ to make it more crisp.

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Bassman Offline




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Posted: Sep. 08 2008, 00:07

@ Ugo.  Surely you must be aware that Bartosik's version is not a "mix".  He would have had to have access to the multitracks for that to be possible.  If anything, his version would be a "remaster", for in that stage of manufacture the music content has already undergone a final mix and the mastering stage only tweaks the relative volume and EQ before the 2-track stereo master is sent off to the cutting lathe.

Also remember guys, Bartosik was not using simple home consumer software.  The reconstruction he undertook was done practically frame by frame with higher end tools, more or less only in spots where he judged it to be necessary.  In my opinion he took a very proprietary approach to the job and is well-deserving of the reputation it's garnered over the years.  Like I said, it's not perfect.  I'd very much like to see what could be accomplished with today's tools. But hopefully anyone listening to his efforts is doing it justice with good hi-fi equipment.

"Hiss" and "highs" are two different things.  You CAN have one without the other.

Anyone care to join me in continuing to wish that MFSL gets the chance to put their mitts on Original HR?


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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Sep. 08 2008, 17:04

@  Bassman, sorry for the wrong use of the word "mix". I only meant that he did a new mix of the original material using noise reduction software. However, you're right - I should've called it a remaster. :)

I don't think MFSL will ever do HR. It's a 'classic' album only to us M.O. fans in here. To the rest of the world it's not. :D Maybe TB is a 'classic' album according to MFSL's criteria... not HR.


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warlock Offline




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Posted: Sep. 08 2008, 17:28

I was to write that - TB is the only candidate for MFSL reissue.

/speaking of which (TB), check it out (polish equivalent of e-bay) http://www.allegro.pl/item425....b5.html
, first pressing in perfect condition ;)


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El Mystico Offline




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Posted: Sep. 12 2008, 07:00

I've got two CDs of the original Hergest ridge - but I don't know whose they are!
Can anyone point out any flaws in bartosik's version that I can listen out for, to check I do have his version, if that is the best one available?

thanks
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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Sep. 13 2008, 16:08

Well, I don't know who Bartosik is but I found a way to get his file. All in all, I think mine is better. Once I got his version, I listened to pt. 1. There were a lot of places where certain instruments(one example, oboe in some spots) were VERY over-driven. He tweeked the 4K, 8K and 16K on the EQ too much. I chose to leave the EQ alone, the listener can tweek the EQ using Windows Media Player. Once I found the "torrent",  I found a long description attached to the effect..."I took an analog LP and converted it to digital and used software....." OK, fine. One thing, I never heard one pop in it, but I only listened to select portions of pt. 1. Thats great. But he boosted the overall volume output of his software somewhat, hence more overdriven parts. I then quickly listened to my file with windows media player set flat or "default" as with his. Less overdriven instruments, but still, the original mix had some sh^& overdriven already, just not this bad. That overdrive was, I guess MO's fault, but still a slave to the technology of the time he did OK. Everything is identical as to where it should be in the L and R channels. My software had a volume boost slider I never touched. I think Bartosik tweeked his. If I were to go back and improve anything it would be to fade out the decay at the last 3 seconds of side 2 to eliminate 1 "washboard" sounding end-groove noise. Maybe put split points about 1/2 second closer at the beginning of both sides to eliminate a click there....But....this was a $35 pristine UK "Porky Cut" of HR. It took me a half-hour just to cut the box open it was so well packed. So quiet. And played on a brand new turntable(and cartridge). And digitalized first with a specific program  before ever being imported into a "Vinyl Restoration" program. It's still stored away like the holy grail. But, it's not vanity or ego on my part, just......who the hell is Bartosik? His version is inferior to mine. *In my oppinion.* Anybody can do this now, and most of what you might need is free. I spent some money on mine.
Jim


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Bassman Offline




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Posted: Sep. 13 2008, 20:29

Jim, I've been giving your version a listen again and it's definitely sweet.  Part 1 especially.  I wonder, does it ever cross your mind to upload it again without any washing?  It would be an interesting comparison.

Just a thought.


PS @ Ugo.  Regarding the MFSL idea.  I'm sure you'll agree it never hurts to hope.  Besides, no one would have expected them to do APP's "Tales", which we were talking about only a short time ago.  If MFSL only did the big moneymakers then surely they would have done "I Robot" (which they actually DID issue as a regular aluminum CD for only the blink of an eye) or "Eye In The Sky".  Those two albums were more successful than "Tales" (note: not necessarily "superior"), but, to my eternal gratitude they did the one the fans were pleading for.  For what it's worth, I don't think they'd touch TB.  It's already been too well-served by all the numerous editions of TB that already exist.  They would not see much of a return on their manufacturing costs.  But you just never know...


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Fine_old_Tom Offline




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Posted: Sep. 17 2008, 04:13

I'd like to THANK YOU ALL, firstly my IPod has been reunited with my favorite MO album in its best mix. Secondly, I've enjoyed reading your comments - though the technical stuff was above my old head! It was stimulating stuff!
Anyway, I have a far too many HR on Lp's - I was a big collector in the 70's and 80's. But the cd and ITunes version was the 'new' mix.... :(
I must agree on one point - any LP by any artist that was cut by Porky is a classic. He was a legend, that guy...


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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Sep. 17 2008, 06:59

He was indeed.

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Bassman Offline




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Posted: Sep. 18 2008, 01:39

I figured after all my yapping I should actually get off my arse and try to do something about it.  This is the text of a letter I sent to MFSL the other day:



    "Good morning/afternoon/evening Sir or Madam,

    As there was no particular subsection I could direct my question to, this link seemed the most appropriate.  If it is not, then please be so kind as to forward this letter to the correct destination.  My question is, are there any plans to issue the above mentioned Mike Oldfield album in the forseeable future?  If there are no plans, can you shed any light as to whether your company had ever pursued the possibility in the past?

    Taking for granted that you may not know a lot about the album's history, please allow me to briefly explain.  The original mix of which I speak was originally issued in 1974, some time after the runaway success of "Tubular Bells".  A couple of years later, Mr. Oldfield supervised a quad remix for a special box set that was issued by his then-record company, Virgin.  He was sufficiently pleased with the remix to the extent that, at his behest, Virgin had deleted the original mix from their catalogue and the stereo fold-down mix of the quad version has since been the only version commercially available-most recently as part of a remastering program back in 2000.  As beautiful as the remixed version is, the differences between the two more than merit the opportunity for fans to have both.  In the years since then the LPs of the original mix have become something of a rare treasure to Mike Oldfield fans the world over.  It's a situation in some ways similar to the demand for the original version of Alan Parsons' "Tales Of Mystery And Imagination".  While I don't have sales figures to back me up, I feel quite certain that Mr. Parsons' fans had no qualms about buying both the CD of his 1987 remixed version of the album and the gorgeous edition of the original that your company issued.  In fact, the MFSL version of "Tales" has, itself, become somewhat of a Holy Grail to APP fans.  Your company must, no doubt, be aware of this, as the prices asked for it on seller's markets plainly show.  I'm sure there are probably a few more examples of this kind of situation in the roster of artists of MFSL's back catalogue, but Mr. Parsons' album was what first came to mind.

    Suffice to say that Mike Oldfield's original "Hergest Ridge" is beloved to many, many enthusiasts of fine music and it would be sad, indeed, if the reason MFSL never issued a CD of it was simply because we didn't speak up.  It is the general understanding that the rights to "Hergest Ridge" (original mix or otherwise) have not yet reverted back to Mr. Oldfield.  It is still under the auspices of Virgin/EMI.  But I cannot see that company declining the opportunity to, in essence, make additional profits on a release they've already made their money on, not to mention the profits that MFSL stands to gain from the legions of eager Oldfield fans.  Many of us once dared to dream of a MFSL box set of The Beatles, or The Rolling Stones.  It came true.  This particular dream is on a somewhat smaller scale, but no less fervent.

    I am quite sure that mine could not possibly be the sole letter your company has received regarding this particular piece of music, but it bears mentioning that if there is any other proper channel within your company in which I can make the wishes of Mr. Oldfield's fans heard, I and many others would gladly act on your suggestions.


    Yours most sincerely,

    T.R.R."


Well, it was worth a shot.      :/


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