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Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: April 18 2008, 07:25 One feeling I can't shake off when listening to MotS is that you can hear it was originally composed with the help of MIDI, and not in the head of the artist - with the help of just a piano or whatever - like a classically trained composer with a thorough understanding of an orchestra's dynamics would do it. This is not meant as a criticism, it's just something I've observed. Much of it gives the impression of a MIDI file played through an extremely sophisticated sample library - the fact that it is actually played by a real orchestra can't conceal this origin; I can still see someone pushing squares around on a computer screen. I feel this is one of the main factors that keeps the album from sounding like normal / typical orchestral music (trying to avoid the word "real" here!) of the kind you hear in classical compositions or film music. Again, this is not a criticism of the album, merely an observation. The parts of the album that I like (which is most of it), I like exactly as they are. This is Mike's way of composing orchestral music, and I would do it exactly the same way. But people have been asking, is this classical music? And my feeling is that, no, it's orchestrated Oldfield music, and classical music (as well as non-classical orchestral music) by people who are classically trained has a different feel, a different dynamic to it. Back to top

trcanberra Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: April 18 2008, 07:48 Quote (Holger @ April 18 2008, 07:25) One feeling I can't shake off when listening to MotS is that you can hear it was originally composed with the help of MIDI, and not in the head of the artist - with the help of just a piano or whatever - like a classically trained composer with a thorough understanding of an orchestra's dynamics would do it. This is not meant as a criticism, it's just something I've observed. Much of it gives the impression of a MIDI file played through an extremely sophisticated sample library - the fact that it is actually played by a real orchestra can't conceal this origin; I can still see someone pushing squares around on a computer screen. I feel this is one of the main factors that keeps the album from sounding like normal / typical orchestral music (trying to avoid the word "real" here! of the kind you hear in classical compositions or film music. Again, this is not a criticism of the album, merely an observation. The parts of the album that I like (which is most of it), I like exactly as they are. This is Mike's way of composing orchestral music, and I would do it exactly the same way. But people have been asking, is this classical music? And my feeling is that, no, it's orchestrated Oldfield music, and classical music (as well as non-classical orchestral music) by people who are classically trained has a different feel, a different dynamic to it. Interesting observation.  I can't say I got that feeling - and re the classical thing, which I raised in another thread - I think that the construction of the piece as much as anything is what might make it qualify. This is one of the better, and more formally structured, pieces in Mike's output in my humble. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 18 2008, 10:46 Holger, I know EXACTLY what you mean.  It ties in somewhat closely to something Tayniee was saying the other day.  I'm not saying that you and her were of the same opinion, but for me, as enjoyable as it is, there is a lack of spontaneity about it-like it's TOO mannered.  I don't mean too thought-out or too mundane.  I'm not saying it right.  Maybe the phrase "paint-by-numbers" would fit better.  It's "safe" music.  Maybe even "artificial"- that would certainly account for your "midi-ness"  assessment. I don't know.  It's hard to express.  Tayniee was saying it's too "adult"- not childlike enough.  I take that to mean not risky enough.  "Mike Oldfield Presents Nice, Polite Dinner Classics".  That reads back as sounding quite harsh, but I don't intend it to. Classical music can be edgy.  One of my favorite pieces is Shostakovich's 11th Symphony.  It's dark.  And without occasional darkness, light means nothing.  "Spheres" doesn't hold and edge for me.  On the other hand, I don't want it to.  I want it to be what it is. This has been brought to you by pre-coffee incoherence. Back to top

Robert_Logan Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: April 22 2008, 05:42 Quote (Bassman @ April 18 2008, 10:46) Holger, I know EXACTLY what you mean.  It ties in somewhat closely to something Tayniee was saying the other day.  I'm not saying that you and her were of the same opinion, but for me, as enjoyable as it is, there is a lack of spontaneity about it-like it's TOO mannered.  I don't mean too thought-out or too mundane.  I'm not saying it right.  Maybe the phrase "paint-by-numbers" would fit better.  It's "safe" music.  Maybe even "artificial"- that would certainly account for your "midi-ness"  assessment. I don't know.  It's hard to express.  Tayniee was saying it's too "adult"- not childlike enough.  I take that to mean not risky enough.  "Mike Oldfield Presents Nice, Polite Dinner Classics".  That reads back as sounding quite harsh, but I don't intend it to. Classical music can be edgy.  One of my favorite pieces is Shostakovich's 11th Symphony.  It's dark.  And without occasional darkness, light means nothing.  "Spheres" doesn't hold and edge for me.  On the other hand, I don't want it to.  I want it to be what it is. This has been brought to you by pre-coffee incoherence. I agree with you. I like 'Music of the Spheres' a lot of the time, but mainly as pleasant backround music, to be honest, precisely because there is no darkness. I don't find it to be a particularly beautiful work because of that, either; like you said, beauty needs some darkness, some edge. My favorite composer at the moment is Vaughan Williams, and even his "easiest" pieces have more darkness and profound beauty in them than MOTS does. I really wanted to love this new MO album, but it's just far too safe for me, and it's not like he's incapable of doing something profound and beautiful: his first four albums (and sections of later works) offer a wonderful balance of discord, darkness, resolution and beauty. All IMHO. Also, I noticed the MIDI thing, too; it mainly seems to affect any section with fast running notes. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: April 22 2008, 06:13 Quote (Holger @ April 18 2008, 11:25) people have been asking, is this classical music? And my feeling is that, no, it's orchestrated Oldfield music, and classical music (as well as non-classical orchestral music) by people who are classically trained has a different feel, a different dynamic to it. I think you've expressed that with great clarity Holger, thanks - you've more sharply defined my vague feeling of unease about thinking of it as 'classical music'. (Of course it doesn't much matter what we call it - but it does matter what our conception of it is.) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: April 22 2008, 11:34 Honest to goodness, I don't detect any MIDIness on the music; but perhaps that's because I'm already attuned to precise and mechanic rhythms and sequences of sounds, so I already take it as a natural thing. The only thing that bothers me are the synthetic percussion effects, like the booming tom-toms, the reverse cymbal leading into The Tempest and the ULTRA LOUD chimes before the final chord. I'd get rid of those if I could. Other than that, everything sounds just fine by me. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: April 22 2008, 15:22 I come from a psychology view point, that something doesn't feel quite right. I'm not a music Teckie as such, though I play an intrument (VIOLIN so can't comment on whether or not it's truely classical. I come from the premis that we are at our most creative when operating in 'child' mode, ie. free spirited, feel all our feelings in the purest sense. We in child/adult/ parent flit in and out of these states all the time. The child is spontaneous and free, the adult logical and rational, the parent judgemental or nurturing. And from that premis  I observe MOTS to be an Adult piece of work. In interviews MO has talked about his mathematical relationship with MOTS and this reinforces my view. I therefore hope that MO will return to creating with the full 'child' in operation, including the dark and edgy. I don't believe for a moment that he will stop composing. -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 22 2008, 21:16 That's an interesting point.  It reminds me of the premise that everything in the universe resonates at various, but measurable, frequencies, and that they can all be mapped out, given the right mathematical principles applied.  MO has spoken of the mathematical connection with MOTS, as Tayniee just mentioned.  Further, most (not all) young children couldn't give a rat's patoot for concepts such as math.  Which to me just reinforces the adult, button-down (my words) feeling I get from the album. Man, I just read that back and it sounds like such a slagging.  It's not meant that way. Maybe it all means that with mathematics we could prove that MO isn't child-like enough to give us any more music! (gasp!) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: April 22 2008, 21:36 To be honest, I think the "mathematical connection" of the album is purely a gimmick, a schtick, an artificial "concept" Mike attributed to his work to give it a sense of direction and purpose. Nothing wrong with that: I do that all the time with my own music, and it helps quite a lot. But, really, if I were to study the mathematical relationships inside the album or between the album and the components of the universe, then I'd be able to do that even with Shakira's next single. I don't think the universe sounds like Music of the Spheres - but in Mike's imagination, it does, and if you can put your own imagination on that idea, then I think his goal is fulfilled. If you were to listen to the music without reading Mike's explanation, without reading the titles and such, would you get the feeling you were supposed to be listening to the musica universalis? I know I wouldn't. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

summer Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: May 2008 Posted: May 03 2008, 12:17 Hey I've just registered on this forum due to my love of mikey baby. I have been trained classically yet I have experience in the technology profession. Why is there a debate to whether it is classical or not? What does classical mean? This piece encorporates classical elements including instrumentation.  When we say classical are we comparing to Mozart or Haydn, who are classical composers in the classical era? Or do we mean something that isn't in the 'pop' charts and uses an orchestra? The MOTS to me is a cross between classical music and technology. Why do you want to categorise it? I thought Mike didn't like to 'label' his music. If you do that then you are expected to follow certian rules and I think Mike is a rule breaker. Who else encorporate the Maggie Thatcher voice into their music? I know he has spoken about the album as a classical piece but could it be a way of staying at the top of the classical charts and real in the money? (Oooooo cliff hanger) Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: May 03 2008, 13:28 That's also an interesting point-and a good first post, Summer.  You just reminded me that back in the late 70's I had just started a new job, and when I was trying to explain MO's work to a couple of the guys I was working with I described MO's first 4 albums as (and I'm not making this up) "classical music, but with traditional pop music instruments"! I think that memory has just helped hit the nail on the head for me now about MOTS.  It's really is a traditional MO album, with the difference being that it simply used traditional classical instruments.  The movements, and the flow from one segment to another are structured the same as the Big 4-just with the added sheen of horns, strings, woodwinds, etc.  I suppose that these facts have been somewhat obscured by the novelty of the classical element that this recording has been borne out of, especially in all the media hype and promotion.  Strip all that away, and what do we have?  Hey look, an album that would have followed next after "Incantations"-just with no electric guitars, basses, synths or Jabula. What does all my ruminating have to do with the "MIDI-ness" of the thread's title?  Only the fact that as a guitarist, MO's experience in the classical genre is more limited than one for whom the classical world is their natural environment.  So whatever he expressed in this "other" medium would bear the hallmarks of cliche and stereotype-even to the extent of it sounding synthetic and maybe even ingenuine. I'm thankful, though, that my head is not so far up my rear that I cannot enjoy it.  I certainly DO enjoy it.  And if it WAS to be his last studio recording, it would not at all be a bad way to tie it all up.  A cycle meeting it's completion. Back to top

summer Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: May 2008 Posted: May 03 2008, 14:19 Whey!!! I'm liking you! Back to top

olracUK Group: Members Posts: 1683 Joined: June 2003 Posted: May 03 2008, 20:25 I think the point is that previously Mike has put his hands on most of the instruments. He knows what will work and what wont with them. Derspite his compulsion to play with the latest technology, it has been completed in his own back room with his own instruments. With MoTS, he put many factors into Karl's hands. The final orchestration, the size of the orchestra. So the original concept of music from many different sources/styles, played with modern rock instrumention has been replaced -------------- The answer is 42 - but what is the question? Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 04 2008, 04:59 Quote (summer @ May 03 2008, 12:17) Why do you want to categorise it? I thought Mike didn't like to 'label' his music. If you do that then you are expected to follow certian rules and I think Mike is a rule breaker. Hi Summer, What you say makes sense ; -  MOTS is 'orchestrated Mike Oldfield' as opposed to 'classical'. I agree that there is no need to categorize as such, and the Mike Oldfield we know generally doesn't 'label' his music, that's true. He did apparently categorize this one though, said it was a classical piece, wonder why he did that? This flags up my interest here in authenticity, and the fact that if we're not being truly congruent and genuine, and when we let other concerns intrude, it will show itself and with Mike it shows in his music. MOTS' is a great piece of work but something is missing on the authentic front for me. It could be to do with the fact he 'put many factors into Karl's hands' (as OracUK has just pointed out) and that in itself would answer in part a sense of falseness?contamination? image consciousness? I'm not sure, that I get instead of 'pure' Mike Oldfield. -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 04 2008, 09:36 It's true that Karl was responsible for a lot in this album, but considering his older albums, didn't Tom Newman have a lot of influence on them too? -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

summer Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: May 2008 Posted: May 04 2008, 15:19 What kind of influence did Tom Newman have on this album? I might have interpreted this wrong but I keep sensing that it is a bad thing for Mike to have help with his albums. In order to progress as a musician I think he does need help. After all we can't put him on a pedestal and expect him to wow us every time with new material that he pulls out of thin air. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 04 2008, 15:23 I meant considering his older albums. After all, if Newman had considerable influence on them, then we can't consider them as "authentic" either. As for me, I see no problem with Mike's albums being collaborative efforts. In fact, it can be extremely positive - having a source of opinions, different ideas and opposing points of view - not to mention expertise in different areas - is usually extremely richening. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 04 2008, 18:05 My issue with authenticity is only with MOTS, and not with  previous albums. I suspect that it may have something to do with his partnership with Karl. What kind of a partnership did Mike have with Tom Newman, was it a good one ? Maybe it was Tom Newman's music and production I liked all along and not Mike Oldfield's.     -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: May 04 2008, 19:28 In this context, it would perhaps be interesting to compare the album to other orchestral albums by composers from a non-classical background. I immediately think of Tony Banks' (keyboardist of Genesis) "Seven" from not too long ago, who also used the help of an orchestrator. I find "Seven", when compared to MotS, sounds a lot more like "normal" orchestral music - and thus more "authentic" if you like - but I'll take MotS over it any day. I actually had rather high hopes when I heard that Banks did an orchestral album. However, "Seven" comes across as rather boring to me; second tier turn-of-the-century classical music bordering on Hollywood film score, the like of which I've heard dozens of times before from composers who've been decomposing for decades. MotS, on the other hand, is much more individualistic. Tony Banks has displayed a musical genius in the past that, as far as I'm concerned, very nearly rivals that of Mike. However, his attempt at an orchestral album - while maybe more "authentic" - also comes across as a lot more uninspiring to me personally. I've tried to get into "Seven", but in the end decided I didn't really like it very much. MotS, on the other hand, while not flawless, took me no effort at all to get into. I guess what I'm saying here is that "authenticity" isn't everything. Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 05 2008, 00:24 Quote (Holger @ May 04 2008, 19:28) I find "Seven", when compared to MotS, sounds a lot more like "normal" orchestral music - and thus more "authentic" if you like - but I'll take MotS over it any day. I guess there are 2 different discussions going on here about 'authentic'. 1. Does MOTS sound like normal 'authentic' orchestral or classical music.? 2. Is Mike being authentic? My observations refer to discussion 2. -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

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