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Topic: The Guardian interview< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Spunkmeier
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Posted: Aug. 06 2003, 22:04

The stupidest thing about copy-protection is that the pirates have ways to by-pass the protection.

TB2003 was available on Direct Connect from the day of its release, and it's not hard to get. So all I get from buying the cd is a nice cover. I will have to take the "copy-protected" album down from the net if I want listen to it. Does that make me a pirate?

To the music industry: that's the way go, all right -- next time I may just download your copy-protected products, because buying them is too tiresome.
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christopher Offline




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Posted: Aug. 06 2003, 22:20

Mike does have a point about the vast majority of internet users these days... wanting something for nothing.  

However, on the flip side of this coin, the way in which Warner went about it was wrong.  By now with all the massive amounts of money they have piped into catching the downloading culprits here in America, you'd think they would have put something more into the technology aimed at piracy.  Instead they came up with some sort of bad program that lets you listen the album on computer and causes it to skip in the first few seconds of each track on something made by Sony.  Obviously, more time and energy must be put in to this thought process!  

I am not against copy protection of legit artists (this does NOT include Britney and Justin or as I like to call Justin - Michael Jackson).  The music business has gone about everything the wrong way for years and they must stop before they do themselves a mischief!  

Christopher
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Manny Offline




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Posted: Aug. 07 2003, 16:49

Just one thing they're not taking into account: sometimes the original CD just get spoiled.  I have always bought original CD and use to copy to my hard disk and Mini Disk, why?, because I have at least 6 CD that became spoiled (they changed their original silver alike color to yellish brown and are unplayable now).  So, being that hard to get an MO CD it is very risk it to rely only in the original.  By the way, don't know if copy protected CD are different to regular ones regarding Track separation but in my computer all players do pause between tracks except RealOne (TSODE and TB2 flows smothly)
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Chris-Llawen
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Posted: Aug. 07 2003, 17:24

owch - Manny, some CDs that you've bought have become spoiled?  i know that some of my CD-Rs (the writable ones) have deteriorated over time, but i haven't had one of my proper CDs do so in any way - where do you keep yours?
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MO fan Offline




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Posted: Aug. 07 2003, 18:34

I am really angry about this copy protection especially when it was introduced to Europe, yet not some other parts of the world.

Why? Cause they dont expect us to complain here in the UK  and thats the truth. Well its time to say No, enough is enough. Wheres our consumers rights?

I personally will NEVER buy a copy protected CD again, no matter who the artist is. Especially after reading that tripe interview by Mike.

If they can treat their fans to this copy protection rubbish then its time to say Asta lavista Baby.

Cheers, MO fan  :D  or should it be  :(
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Gandalph Offline




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Posted: Aug. 07 2003, 19:20

Quote (MO fan @ Aug. 07 2003, 18:34)
I personally will NEVER buy a copy protected CD again, no matter who the artist is. Especially after reading that tripe interview by Mike.

If they can treat their fans to this copy protection rubbish then its time to say Asta lavista Baby.

Indeed it is. I promised myself that I would never buy a copy protected CD from the first time I saw an article stating that record companies were going to start experimenting with the technology. And I have stuck to that promise. Though I must admit that TB 2003 is the first record released with copy protection on that I have been interested in. I did buy it, but only so I could return it.

It has got to the point now where I have stopped buying CDs from online retailers altogether. Although some retailers put warnings on some of the CD information pages they certainly don't put a warning for every corrupt CD. And they seem scared to answer questions on which discs are corrupt. See my emails to Amazon.co.uk as an example: http://ukcdr.org/issues/cd/retail/20030707-amazon.txt

I simply don't know what I am ordering. So it is not worth taking the risk.


--------------
Yet Another Mike Oldfield Web Site - http://www.dbennett.karoo.net
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 07 2003, 22:59

Something i've meant to say for a while but haven't got round to until now...this interview has been a great smokescreen.

While everyone's been complaining about what Mike said, we've glossed over the fact that the DVD-A release date has been pushed back, from August 25th to September 15th. They know how to keep the fans happy, don't they?

I've never seen CDs go brown myself. I suppose it must be because of some small manufacturing fault that means one of the layers (presumably the metal) reacts with something else (I'm not sure quite what it might be. The metal layer's usually aluminium, I'm not sure what turns aluminium that colour).

Online retailers quite often are under pressure from the record companies to not warn that a disc is copy protected. It's debatable whether they should be listing them as Audio CDs - Amazon say that it's fine, as the discs are designed for audio CD players, but really, they don't comply to the Red Book format (the Audio CD standard), and I say if it's not Red Book, it's not an Audio CD (amusingly, a representative of Amazon said that they thought the Red Book might be updated to include the changes made by the likes of Macrovision...I really don't think they've quite got the hang of this standards thing...you'll find that letter on ukcdr.org as well). It can also be very tricky to return these discs to them if they don't work - I think if people are concerned about whether a CD will work or not, they're better off buying it elsewhere.
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VetleMakt Offline




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Posted: Aug. 08 2003, 11:35

I haven't bought TB2003 yet, but I will. Because it's one of Mikes.

That said, I'm angry at WEA for putting that copy protection on it, as I feel it's my right to play my CD's in whatever player I'd like. I've yet to burn a CD-R copy of one of Mikes records, but if I did, it would be with the intention of having a back-up copy. I can see nothing wrong with that.
That aside, using only the original, I'd expect my DVD, PC or any other device to play this product just as well as it would on a regular CD-player. As I've come to understand, this is not the case with TB2003. Not only will it play badly on some (perfectly good) CD-players, it's also been known to damage certain players. <!>

Now, WEA bitching is nothing else than what I'd expect. The motivation for them is cash. This new way of exploiting, though, is sickening.

What really disappoints me in this matter is the way Mike tackles the situation.

What do you get out of this, Mike? I'm sure it's not money, as a lot of people return your latest piece of art in exchange for their money back...

I would encourage everyone to return their copy of Tubular Bells 2003, and buy the canadian version online instead.
I understand this one is copy protection-free...


--------------
Aberdeen, Sundsvall, Århus, Cardiff, Sevilla, Gdansk, Napoli -
Never been there.
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Chris-Llawen
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Posted: Aug. 08 2003, 15:46

i wonder how different things would be if - dare i say it - Mike had stayed with Virgin?

; )
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cruzmtn@aol.com
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Posted: Aug. 08 2003, 23:18

An example of why I burn cd's for personal use:

I went on a water skiing/camping trip.  A cd got lost and was found 6 months later, scratched so bad that it wouldn't play.  Expensive import CD's like Tubular Bells 2003 are ones that I like to take on trips to enjoy but don't want to risk getting ruined.  (aha!!!  Cd's aren't indestructible)

I may be harming my argument, but on the subject of burning.---Sometimes I burn a CD for a friend in the hope that they enjoy it as much as I do.  Mike has a legion of loyal fans--like me-- who will buy 95% of his output.  (Including misguided re-mixes by no-name DJ's).  But not everyone is a fan....yet.  I hope that by giving them a throwaway copy of a CD that I enjoy, they will be excited enough to look further into his massive catalog.  Beleive me......... There's no way that they would otherwise hear him.  He's not exactly radio fodder (not that he shouldn't be).  

This happened to me.  A friend gave me a copy of a little known arteest named Moby.  I liked it well enough to buy his latest release.  I wouldn't have taken a chance on word of mouth alone, but after hearing "Play" I liked it enough to pay full retail for "18"  (afterthought--not as good as Play.  But..... now I'm a fan).  

As far as a previous comment was made re: teeny boppers who burn the latest Brittany or Justin song. Those kids wouldn't buy a CD anyway.  We all have friends who haven't set foot into a music store in years. Not because they don't like music.  But they aren't motivated enough to purchase it.  If kids download the latest hit, It's because they'll be tired of it in a month or so anyway.

So........ That being said. Copy protection on CD's SUCKS!! Time/WARNER don't do what you shouldn't.  Go out of your way to tick your customers off.!!

One more quick question.  I paid extra money to get the Bonus DVD of TB 2003. It won't work in my computer or my DVD player.  Audio--Video--///NOTHING.??  Any comments??
PEACE.
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billybalakalai
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Posted: Aug. 10 2003, 03:46

i dont see the problem
i simply bought a pirated copy on the street for $2 and it plays fine, if this thing is pissing you all off so much why not just do that ? I wasnt going to pay over $15 or a cd, (copy protected or not) the prices are just insane these days ...
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seliador
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Posted: Aug. 10 2003, 10:08

I own several copy protected cd's - and all work fine. Perhaps it's luck?

I think a kind of copy protection is ok - when you buy the cd you know you can't make a copy and you have to think about, if the cd is its money worth.
Today's copy protections cause problems on some cd-players - the engineers have to work on this.

I think a good idea would be, to give a coupon or something like that to every copy protected cd. When you buy a copy protected cd, you can send the coupon to the manufacturer and then you can buy for perhaps 2 euro or so copys of the cd - without the booklet, a cover or sth., just the cd in a jewel case to play it in your car. This cd should be of course copy protected, too. But at first the copy protections have to work with all cd players...


I learn about new music by reading interviews and biographies of musicians. For example, the last band I learned is "Melbourne". Carrie Melbourne, the singer and bass player of the band, played with Mike Oldfield on some concerts, I saw her even on the Thou Art in Heaven Concert playing bass.
Often I download some mp3s from those bands, listen to them and if I like it, I buy the cds. If I don't like the music, I delete those mp3s. Another way I use is to visit www.amazon.com. Many cds have real audio samples, but often they are too short :-(
But I think (internet) piracy IS a (big) problem - because I know so many people, who are doing that. One buys a cd and a week later all of his friends have this cd, too - just on a cd-r or even with a copied booklet or so. Or look at these file sharing tools - there are really many people, who are downloading all the music they listen to there. You can't despite piracy would be no problem to the labels, and with the new technic (cheap cd-recorders, internet with broadband/dsl/cable, file sharing) it is easyer and cheaper than ever!!


So I think the labels have to find a way, to fight against piracy without annoying the fans (with copy protections witch cause problems at playing the cds in the player) and at the same moment to give possibilities, to listen to music in the web. For example by providing more free samples of music in a simple way.
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Chris-Llawen
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Posted: Aug. 10 2003, 17:45

why should consumers be the guinea pigs for the new copy-protect technology?  It should have been -thoroughly- tested before anyone even thought of beginning to market CDs containing the protection.

Okay, piracy is growing/has grown over the years, but pirates are still in the minority of listeners.  This poorly prepared technology is really just annoying the hell out of the honest consumers who buy artists' products.  Those of the public who copy CDs for simple backup CD-R disks aren't proper pirates are they?  If -these- people can't make a copy because of the copy-protection surely they won't be too bothered anyway and make a tape copy or something - but if a serious pirate wants to make copies to sell illegally he/she will have a few tricks up their sleeve to get around the technology anyway.  The protection is obviously very faulty, so there are probably a few ways to get around the idea itself,

i dunno..

What was my point? oh yeh: the technology shouldn't have been released until the designers had tested its compatibility with pretty much every type of CD player around.  To assume it'll work on every player is surely a bit naieve (assuming this may be what they thought/didn't think about) - they couldn't have tested it very extensively...
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 10 2003, 18:56

I think it really all boils down to money and what people will pay for.

Why would Macrovision bother refining the system any more if the record companies are happy to pay them for it as it is? They'll no doubt work on something better when the record companies start to complain, but for the moment...

I think it'll be quite a job to get it working any better than it does anyway - it's just a kind of hack, and as long as not all players are made the same, it'll continue to be a hack that only works some of the time.
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TinkerBell Offline




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Posted: Aug. 11 2003, 19:22

Although a little off-topic, I found this today on http://www.hollywood.com/ ...

Michael Jackson speaks out against anti-piracy legislation

Quote

HOLLYWOOD,  July  23, 2003 -- Michael Jackson is speaking out against new legislation that would make downloading copyrighted material over the Internet a felony punishable by jail time.

"I am speechless about the idea of putting music fans in jail for downloading music. It is wrong to download but the answer cannot be jail," Jackson said in a statement. "It is the fans that drive the success of the music business; I wish that would not be forgotten."

Lawmakers introduced the bill currently under consideration, called the Authors, Consumer and Computer Owners Protection and Security Act of 2003, July 16 in the House of Representatives. The act would make downloading songs over the Web a felony offense.

"Here in America we create new opportunities out of adversity, not punitive laws," he said. "We should look to new technologies, like Apple's new Itunes Music Store, for solutions. This way, innovation continues to be the hallmark of America."


I just wish "Our" Michael would finally get the plot ... he is big enough, right? :/
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sEIGu
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Posted: Aug. 12 2003, 04:54

all said & done here.

only one thing to mention: copy protection will only motivate professional pirates. or why was i able to download it a few days after release in emule?

was there a poll here in the board already? if not, please make on:

TB 2003: bought it? or copied?

i bought it. and it was never a question to me, to copy it. i only copy things, i can't buy in stores (hey, and i bought a lot of things ;) ).
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Terminator
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Posted: Aug. 12 2003, 05:01

"Michael Jackson is speaking out against new legislation that would make downloading copyrighted material over the Internet a felony punishable by jail time."

Quite right, The whole point about that act if it ever became law, would result in the whole country going to jail at some point in time. Overcrowded jails, you aint seen nothing yet.

We have copyright laws in the UK not allowing us to keep permenant copies of films on VCR or DVD-R , but its a farce, everyone has some copies in their homes, its a fact of life.

Would this mean eventually you could not record a TV show  of the box or even a radio show on music tape if you were going out for the day, NO....THIS LAW IS TOTALLY UNENFORCIBLE.

A similar crazy law came in a few years back in one of the Scandinavian countries making it  ZERO TOLERANCE on drink & driving law, now the the majority of the adult driving population there, have a date of two weeks in jail, whenever a space is available. Its a total farce.

THE LAW IS AN ASS IN RESPECT TO THESE UNENFORCABLE TYPES OF CRAZY IDEAS.  

And the downloading copyrighted material over the Internet a felony punishable by jail time, is another of them.
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Jesper Hansen
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Posted: Aug. 12 2003, 05:36

Quote (Guest @ Aug. 05 2003, 06:32)
Composers and musicians like Mike benefit from the Internet. Sure, there are people who download all the albums and are happy to get them for free, but on the whole I'm sure the sales have gone up.

Last year, in Denmark, the record sale went down 27% compared to 2001. So artists do indeed suffer from downloads and piracy. Surely the also benefit from the net. It´s an easy way to learn about composers and artists.
But saying that recordsales go up isn´t true

All the best
Jesper
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 12 2003, 08:21

I still think there's a lack of figures in certain areas - I've heard lots of figures saying how much sales have fallen, but I haven't seen many that give concrete evidence to say what's risen in their place. That could of course be hard, as things like music sharing activity could be hard to track. Some figures I've seen quoted to 'prove' that the drop in sales is due to CD burning have been derived from CDR sales figures (as far as I remember, it said "X number of CDRs were sold this year, so therefore we lost the same number of sales to piracy") - that's not going to give an accurate figure by any means, as a lot of CDRs are not being used for piracy of any kind. What percentage are being used for piracy, I don't know - again, it's rather hard to track. This difficulty of obtaining any concrete figures is I think what the record industry is playing on - they can say "This year, we estimate that 600,000,000 CDs were illegally copied" and nobody else can prove them wrong (I made that figure up, by the way).

Sales in some places, I'm told, have gone up, and in other places (like the USA), drops in sales have partly been down to a drop in the number of releases - there's an article looking at RIAA figures for 2000 and 2001 here)

Like I've said before, I don't deny that piracy exists and is a problem, but I get the feeling we're not being told the whole story here. There appears to be a mssive level of incompetence in some areas of the industry, and it sometimes feels like they're trying to make the consumers pay for it...
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 12 2003, 08:36

There's also a look at 2002 RIAA figures here. Very revealing stuff...
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