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Topic: The artist as a slave of his music, or vice versa!< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Jan. 14 2010, 12:31

I realise that each artist and each musician is a world of his own, and everyone discovers music in some unique way; even if one ends up being an awfully derivative pastiche of somebody else (or somebodies elses (sic)), the copy will never be 100% equal; and so, everyone has a different way of making music.

Some musicians feel like they're crafting items of art, similarly to how a blacksmith forges tools. Others feel like they're really just opening their heart and pouring whatever comes out of it. Some feel like they're channeling higher things, spiritual entities, God, or something, and so they're merely messengers.

Myself, I have recently realised that I don't feel like I'm making the music properly. I feel like I'm raising children. Up to a point, when an album starts taking shape in my head, is sort of like I'm taking the songs by the hand, teaching them things, showing them the right and the wrong; but then, they grow up, start to walk and talk on their own, and go ahead to make their own life, and I'm just there as an assistant, as a guy who has to write the notes and create the sounds on the computer and mix the whole thing. There is a point, some indefinite point in time, when the album becomes bigger than myself, and it grows organically. I work like a slave to the music, except that I get all the fruits of my work at the end, when I stop listening to the music in terms of levels, whether I can hear an instrument or not, keeping everything out of the red, and I just step back and enjoy it.

I don't think I could work differently. I don't put "myself" on the music I make, and I have no need to use music as a way for me to "say" things, communicate, connect with people, because I already have words for that. My music has its own life, it talks to people regardless of me. Other people work completely different: their music is a musical image of themselves, and they want you to listen to them through the music, the person behind the sounds. I feel glad, absolutely happy and content with the fact that you won't hear me in the music.

Does that make sense to anyone here?


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Jan. 14 2010, 23:35

Perhaps songs are like Dawkins' memes, and eventually do have a life of their own, spreading from brain to brain, like mental software viruses.

Incidentally, there's a literary theoretical thing called the 'hermeneutic circle', according to which even the 'same' artistic work doesn't remain the same. For example, if you read a novel twice, the second time round the semiotic network comprising you and the novel will be different, not only because you have changed as a person but also because your view of the novel will have changed, simply because you have read it before.

I imagine being a composer is a thankless task, and I take off my hat to anyone who perseveres.
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ex member 419 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 15 2010, 00:19

Hi Sir M, congratulations are in order. From an existential view point you succeed by participating, creating and critiqueing your work. There are no right or wrong ways to create music. Truly beautiful music comes from the soul. A gift from above to inspire those around you. Share your works with us. BTW, nice to have you posting again! Deb
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: Jan. 15 2010, 03:25

Interesting thread.Never given it much thought.

It makes perfect sense to me.
As a soloist it varies everytime i play.Sometimes on stage it flows through me and out of the amp.Those times i definately feel like i'm channeling something higher.It's just comes out and it's like meditating.Other times it's bloody hard work and that's definately just me!
 As for communicating,well yes i'd say that's part of it.I'm not a loud person and,although i have a lot of very close friends,i like to keep myself to myself and am not a very socialable bloke.That is until i get up to play a gig.Not that i'm jumping about like an idiot but i'm definately 100% focussed.Then it's about communucating something.
 As for why we play.I really don't know.I've always played since i was young.I don't have that all consuming hunger to learn how to play like i did in my early teens anymore but since I buggered up school cos of it i figured i'd better learn to play to a good standard but what i know now that i didn't know then is that you never really learn all there is to know.You get to a fair standard of playing but then if you want to grow as a player you then realise there's so much more.That would explain why i change direction with each new band.Doing a jazz thing at the moment just to learn more as well as putting this new thing together.It's a never ending thing.I'll probably  be a pensioner in a death metal band!

Slave to the music?yep and happy about it.Beats sitting watching football on TV!


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THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH.
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ex member 419 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 15 2010, 04:19

Hi Caveman, you have many skills as a mucisian, this is part of the journey you are on. There is no true bad experience, its all evolution. This year I hope your musical journey takes you many places, on the physical, spiritual level. Oh and before I bore myself with deep existential musings, ROCK YOUR SOCKS OFF! As loud or as mellow as you like. Lining up for tickets at your first gig, Deb
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: Jan. 15 2010, 04:26

Lol.Bloody long way to Oz. :laugh:

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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: Jan. 15 2010, 05:08

@Sir M.I really like your idea of 'nurturing' a peice into life.Do you mean lyrically or musically?the reason i ask is that i'm going to have to start writing seriously which i've not really done much of.The last band tended to be one of the guys coming in with a song half formed and i'd add my part to it.Lyrics i can't do.Looks great when i'm 'relaxed' in the evening but when i look in the cold light of day it looks awfull!

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THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Jan. 15 2010, 08:11

Quote (nightspore @ Jan. 14 2010, 23:35)
I imagine being a composer is a thankless task, and I take off my hat to anyone who perseveres.

I wouldn't say it's thankless, not in my case. As laborious as the process may be, it's extremely rewarding to see something that once existed entirely and solely in my head become something real and physical.

Quote
Hi Sir M, congratulations are in order. From an existential view point you succeed by participating, creating and critiqueing your work. There are no right or wrong ways to create music.


Thanks, Deb. Indeed, as much as opinions can be argued and agreed/disagreed with, when it comes to art, creation, creed, there's no point in arguing what is the "right" way of doing things -- the only right way is to do what you feel is the better way. And I know some people avoid rationalising on their work; for them the act of creation is spontaneous, it feels like the right thing, and in that case it's just better to trust your emotions and go ahead with it. It's like falling in love. My case is different and it works for me, but yes, I'm constantly doing a "self-feedback" with my creativity, and it helps me grow. :)

Quote
I really like your idea of 'nurturing' a peice into life.Do you mean lyrically or musically?


I seldom write lyrics, but in the few cases I did, I notice that I work very differently. I don't treat sounds the same way I treat words, and I know that it's due to me not thinking words "musically". There are composers who have an amazing ability of writing the words as a musical element, and when you do that, I guess music and lyrics sort of flow together. Anyway, like I said, the whole first post was written with music in mind, not lyrics. My usual method involves writing lyrics first, thinking only about their meaning, and then I wrap the music around it; that is, I determine the melody, the meter and everything else, according to the lyrics. I don't write lyrics with meter, with rhymes or anything, because that's way beyond my reach, so I guess it only works for the kind of stuff I do.

But when it comes to lyrics looking awful to you, I've been through that sometimes: doing something on the moment, but feeling embarrassed afterwards. Maybe that's a kind of fear of our own honesty, or something? Andy Partridge said in one interview that he always wraps his lyrics in metaphors and allegories because, paraphrasing him, it's hard to be stark naked. Myself, I have written a song with very personal lyrics, but I wiped away all the traces of my personality from it, so that I can recognise myself in the words, but other people may recognise someone else, or even their own selves in the words. Mind you, I only managed that once; I don't think I could pull it off again. So, maybe the trick is for you to cut out the "details", to make the song more general, or even better: to subvert your ideas to make them something openly confrontational, yet truthful. You know; take the things people don't expect to hear. One composer I know does that pretty well is David Byrne. But the real thing is to find your inner voice, and work it exhaustively, without fear of being awful. My singing is awful; I have sung very few times in my songs, and even listening to them gives me a sparkle of shame. Even being very intimate with my girlfriend, I was embarrassed to show her my singing! But, heck, you just gotta face it and take in the embarrassment. Eventually it goes away. :)


--------------
Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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Ginger Daddy Offline




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Posted: Jan. 15 2010, 08:26

Sir Mustapha - I'm always amazed when I hear how other musicians view the creative process, there are so many different experiences and they all make me feel like a fraud.

Maybe it's because of different personal histories.

When I compose new music it usually starts as an inspiration from nowhere. I get an idea for a melody of sequence of chords, or even a particular rhythm. Sometimes I can play it immediately on the piano but sometimes it needs time to mature in my head.

Then it can be weeks or months before I actually do anything with it and that can be a torturous process itself because for some reason my creative process starts to think about recurring themes, motifs, melodies, etc which could pervade a whole album of music.

On rare occasions I am inspired and the total time from idea to fully recorded track can be as little as 2-3 hours when it's just piano with some incidental keyboards.

However, I find that after the initial inspiration it's a very clinical process finding the right arrangement to match that sound I've heard in my head - and most of the time I never manage to match it although I do get close.

Sometimes I'll have a Eureka! moment while arranging the instruments but the sense you have of nurturing just doesn't apply to me.

I love my music and my tracks are my emotional children (and nobody is allowed to criticise them :) ) .

<Pause for thought>

Phew, poured out a bit too much there and apologies it it's mostly waffle but I'll leave it unedited.

Cheers,
Terry.


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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: Jan. 15 2010, 11:20

Thanks Sir M.Good tips on songwriting.I have no problem coming up with music (remebering's a different matter which is why i must buy some sort recording device to use as a notepad).I guess i just have to perservere with lyrics.

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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Jan. 16 2010, 00:15

I found ideas every everywhere. Even an effect could lead to something progressing into a sweet idea, then eventually a tune I was proud of. Those with a lot of technical ability can learn a song quickly or make a living producing forgettable but money making short lived hits. Most of this is mimickry and great pattern recognition skills. Those with a lot of expressive ability can make you cry or laugh, but tend to have a smaller "convoy" due to the unique nature of their music. Those rare few who have abundant technical as well as expressive abilities leave treasures like "Hergest Ridge", "Spectral Mornings" or "Thick as a Brick". I always searched for the individuals abundant in both. Me? I seem be more expressive than technical in abilities. Very low on the technical end, making the invention of MIDI such a wonderful thing. It gave people with limited dexterity a chance to express more with gimmickry, gadgetry and editing. It also had the unfortunate result of making music evolve into a more automated wasteland since composers got lazy with these new inventions. There's ways around that tho....don't quantize everything. Flaws are neccesary for art. If your crappy at guitar(as I am), get good at many different shorter parts and overdub/paste/insert them cleverly for a lot of imbellishment.
    BTW the best notepad for ideas is your own PC. Anything like a guitar riff or singing can be saved quickly with any software that records .WAV files(a lot are free). Save them all. One day you might find 10 or 12 ideas you saved go well together.....then you've got your own Amarok.


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ex member 419 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 16 2010, 06:30

The processes we are describing in creating and writing music and lyrics Mike experienced over extended periods of time. In Mike's case the writing and creation of music that he was happy with was a cause of tension, with Virgin wanting him to churn out product like an automaton. To actually release HR and Ommadawn with these pressures and HR reaching no. 1 proves Mike would not be bullied into putting "something out there" just to satisfy a few. Mike has shown that creative integrity and mucianship matter more than commercial success. Stick with what sounds and feels right for you, and take pride in your work, Deb
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ex member 892 Offline




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Posted: Jan. 16 2010, 20:27

When I write, I notice during the early stages of a composition, it's very instinctual, like it's not even coming from me. After a certain point, however, it becomes a very methodical (and slow) process of experimentation and seeing what fits where. I've also noticed that on the guitar I tend to come up with more chordal and riff-based stuff, whereas on the piano I usually write more melodically - even if a melody I write on the piano ends up being played on the guitar. Of course it seems like I read that MO writes the same way. So maybe that's a common thing.
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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Jan. 17 2010, 01:49

I agree with you Syd. For me it just comes from......where? I never could play other people's songs. I tried. I might have learned but quickly forgotten how to play "Stairway to Heaven" or "TB1 intro" on piano long ago, but it was never my bag(thats '60s talk) to cover others. My brain just doesn't work that way. My lease in burritoville runs out on midnight CST March 31. RE saving ideas as .WAV files, I've done it and hope it will(know it will) come in handy in my next carefully thought-out dwelling. The area of Austin TX I'm focusing on revolves around a lot of university students' dwellings. This, I hope will get me some sort of social convoy. Where you have colleges you have musicians. I may be 30 years out of date, but I hope this move will ignite something. Even if it does not, at least I'll feel more inspiration than where I've been the last 9 months. I have found, a depressing environment is not conducive to musical productivity.
    BTW I have found that we are all slaves to music, artist or not. The type A personality, IE those that are "Go-getters" and make tons of money, not afraid to take anti-depressents to augment their mood, the jet set who focus on non musical careers......music for them is ambience. Let's just dance. I feel sorry for them while most envy them(because of their social success as well as monetary). Once you have "touched" music from your own being, IE created it, it's almost like prayer. The type B personalities, us wierd artistic types....I feel sad for the type A's. They live in a world of listening but not creation. Huge social convoy but no contribution to the arts. I'm reminded of Bryan Ferry. Here was a guy who majored in Art. Made his living teaching Art while he searched for the members that would become Roxy Music. Donald Fagen and Walter Becker, both English majors(hence the verbose and still scrutinizable lyrics) met in college and formed Steely Dan. I ramble too long don't I? Just ramble on......and on....Robert Plant woulda liked me though.
     Point being I'm looking forward to moving. SHUT UP JIM!


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We raise our voices in the night
Crying to heaven
And will our voices be heard
Or will they break Like the wind
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Jan. 19 2010, 19:45

Quote (Scatterplot @ Jan. 16 2010, 00:15)
Flaws are neccesary for art. If your crappy at guitar(as I am), get good at many different shorter parts and overdub/paste/insert them cleverly for a lot of imbellishment.

This has reminded me of a well known "case study": Robin Guthrie, from Cocteau Twins, has stated that his heavily processed and layered guitar playing originally was not a clear artistic choice, but a way for him to compensate for his lack of playing skill. Who would guess: not being a skilled guitarist has resulted in one of the most unique and memorable sounds of the whole decade.

Myself, I get sort of tangled up in the talk of "music as business vs. music as art" department, because there's no clear diving line between both, and because both have merits and demerits. Pick any average pop star who makes "music for the masses": are they committing any crime? They're doing the best they can (I assume), they're not stealing the place of an "actually talented" guy (no record label would have considered Mike Oldfield as a replacement for New Kids on the Block when they broke up, for example...), they're entertaining and making people happy... so, what can they be condemned for? Meanwhile, the "music as art" department often gets busy finding ways to alienate people from music more and more; to listen to classical music, you must first "understand" it; if you're not listening to this specific 1959 recording of the 3.5th string quintet from some poor Polish starving artist from the 1700's, you're not experiencing "true music"; if you dare to play a clarinet that's 0.05 grams heavier than the norm, you're RUINING MUSIC; and so on. Aren't there extremes to be avoided in both sides? Anyway, I digress.

Yesterday I had an idea for a song lyric, and today I wrote it on the bus ride from the beach back home. It fit pretty much exactly the process I described earlier: I took a twisted lyrical idea and twisted it even further into something I would never dare think, but that makes some sort of sense; what if a man was jealous of the elements of nature and the things they do to his lover, yet felt more powerful than nature for doing a better job? It's probably not a novel concept, but I fleshed it out in a quite repulsive, yet facetious way. I did no rhymes, but I measured the meter, chose words carefully, and tried hard to create clever imagery and make the whole thing make sense. But that was one idea I had in a flash, not a process I do twice a day. I think the key is observing small things and blowing them out of proportion in a way that feels scarily humane and not overly wacky; what if you girl was so beautiful that you actually wished you were her (Why Can't I Be You, by the Cure)? What if a guy woke up with the world transformed into a natural paradise and wished it would go back to normal (Nothing But Flowers, by Talking Heads)? What if someone just discovered love, yet thought it was some amazing scientific discovery that could explain the creation of the Universe (What Is the Light, by the Flaming Lips)? I think, even if your lyrics don't end up being unpredictable and subversive, playing around with such things can be a great exercise. They can make you imagine and analyse situations differently, and extract an unusual idea out of them. The good lyric, in my opinion, is the one that leaves something for the listener to chew on for a long time, instead of dumping everything down his throat at once. :)


--------------
Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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Inspirement Offline




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Posted: Dec. 14 2010, 09:18

My music often comes from flashes of words i get in my head like "Into the Great Nothingness" "Angry Mammals" or "Liquid Star Symbiose". (These flashes often come when i'm outside so i take notes on my cellphone.)
These words, or songtitles as they often become, are then the basis for the mood and character of the song. I often get ideas for instrumentation right away, like "Angry Mammals" would have roaring guitars and aggressive drums, while "Into the Great Nothingness" would have spacey pads, Vibraphones, Piano and perhaps some latin percussion.

I am very bad with lyrics, but one way i am trying to get past this obstacle is to make up my own language and then write nonsense lyrics, perhaps about a very tasty sausage, and then translate the lyrics to my made-up language. Then people won't know what i'm singing about, but it will sound exotic.
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