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CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 23 2000, 15:33 Hello everybody. There is a BIG discussion going on in 'do fans expect too much'. If I understand correctly, it's about 'old' and 'new' MO styles. Well, however. I'd like to keep it a bit smaller, so I started a new topic. Let's listen to the opening theme of TB. It also (altered but recognisable) opens TBII and TBIII. In II and III, it has a plain 4/4 rhythm. But in original TB, there's a beat missing (or too much?) every now and then. When I hear that, I always feel: "Something strange is going on here!...". There is this 'strangeness' in almost every part of TB. I can't find the right word: Eerie? Spooky? Enchanted? And I miss it in many parts of the sequels (which doesn't mean I don't like them). Have you ever felt anything similar about Mike's music? -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 641 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 23 2000, 18:14 I feel that instrumental albums which have many tracks like TSODE, TMB etc. just aren't the same as the older instruemtal works of the 70s. There is something so inovative and clever about the way many themes are woven together to make instrumentals lasting around 20 minutes or more. Spliting them into tracks which stand alone from the rest of the piece just breaks the continuity. I know the CD is a great invention over the LP which alows you to skip to any track you want, but with a single or maybe two tracks comprising long instrumentals we could just play them in Amarok player and have fun thinking of descriptive section names and sharing it with the other fans. There used to be instrumentals spanning the sides of an LP which had nonsense names like Ommadawn. It was up to the listener to decide what the music was describing. The last instrumental that you could say was one was Music from the Balcony. Being such a fan I wouldn't mind if MO did anything, except for this up-coming project which I feel is ridiculous: A VR game which would run slow on any computer unless it has silicon graphics and that you can't download off the internet in a day unless you have ASDL and only available off the internet so you can't just go into a record shop, buy an album and have some great music to listen to on the same day and music that you can't just listen to because you have to play the game and sometimes what it would generate would be rubbish and a waste of your time and a concept that's so radically different that it would be very hard to get around it. All you need for an album is just a stereo, it can be as simple as you like, not like an expensive computer system with internet. I think at this stage, not wanting it to happen is not an option. If it is a total flop it will be one of his worst works (or projects) and I'll just be looking foward to the next album after that, still having hope in him If I had my choice I'd really like to see a Taurus IV using themes from all the previous ones. Like Taurus II it could be based on a theme of something MO is very into. A concept album would be great as well. Back to top

bennyboy Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: July 2000 Posted: Oct. 24 2000, 05:50 Yes, I know what you mean about the Tubular Bells sequels. TB1 has this strange, spooky atmosphere that the other two don't have, and it is probably because all the rough edges have been smoothed over in the recording process, now Mike is more experienced with that sort of thing. TB2 sounds joyful and happy most of the time, which is probably why it is the one I return to most. TB3 runs the gamut of emotions, and of all the spin offs from Tubular Bells (TB2, The Orchestral Tubular Bells, The Exposed version of Tubular Bells, the Boxed version of Tubular Bells, the guitar only cover of Tubular Bells) I think it is probably the best, as it develops some memorable themes of its own ("Top Of The Morning", "Serpent Dream", "The Watchful Eye") and doesn't JUST fall back on recycling old stuff (and when it does so it is considerably more provocative, as the conflicting reactions among his fans on this forum prove). Funnily enough I got a similar "strange spooky feeling" with "The Songs Of Distant Earth". But it was BECAUSE it was such a neatly refined piece of music. I think it was Mikes guitar that really did it, there was this incredible feeling of sadness and yearning coming from his guitars in that album, listen to that guitar solo after the countdown in "Crystal Clear" then try telling me that Mikes work in the nineties lacks soul and passion....but I won't go on about that now, the "Do fans expect too much" thing (a forum I started) has got up enough people already (although I am surprised at just how defensive some people can be...) Also, just a point on the above comment by 2 Distorted Guitars, a lot of his work in the nineties ("TB2", "SODE" bits of "TB3" and "vOYAGER") really are long instrumentals, although they are split into tracks the tracks flow into each other, so if say "In The Beginning" to "Prayer For The Earth" on TSODE had been one track it wouldn't have seemed disjointed, whereas a lot of his more recent long instrumentals ("Amarok", "Music From The Balcony", "Four Winds") do sound VERY fragmented. Strange. As for Sonic Reality, well only time will tell on that one, although I don't think it will be his worst disaster yet if it does flop, it'd take a lot to top "The Orchestral Tubular Bells" and "Heaven's Open" in my book. However, I do wish he had just released it as a nice, normal CD ROM computer game, but thats another topic altogether... Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 25 2000, 14:48 Thank you, 2distortedguitars & bennyboy. Yes, I think 'spookyness' may also have to do with the absence of harsh cuts, or with the 'rough edges': Mike himself said that TB is out of tune and out of time and that's why he made TBII. (Elements video) Yes, TSODE sounds a little bit spooky to me, too. But by far not as much as TB. - There's another thing: Normally, the bass plays the lowes notes of the chords. (That's what you expect it to do.) But in Mike's works, sometimes the bass just stays on the same note for a long time, as if it 'forgot' to change. This happens in Lion (Amarok 19:57) and Cochise (Guitars). It's also true for the choir in Amadan (Ommadawn 01:15). Where else can this be found? -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 641 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 25 2000, 15:24 In Ommadawn at 07:36 is an obvious place. I feel that the bass plays repeating notes to get a certain effect. It can also move about when it wants to. It creates an ironic sense of movement as well. You couldn't listen to Cochise and think that it was describing a stationary object. If the bass stays still it is probably playing a lively rhythm. Cochise has guitar chords. If it just used the same chord it would sound too much like Jewel in the Crown. Maybe Mike had the same bass note because he discovered harmonies by keeping it stationary something that has been totally lost in MO's music is the timeless traditional feel that were in works up to Incantations. It must be the irregularities and the fact that it was still being recorded onto analog tape (and many times over). It's also to do with the Farsifa and Lowrey organs, perhaps back then I might have said they sounded too souless and modern :-) Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 25 2000, 15:49 Thanks, 2distortedguitars! - Ommadawn: Right! This illustrates very well what I mean. At 07:36, the bass stays constant, and from 07:47 it 'does what you expect it to'. - Cochise: Why 'stationary object'? Does the word Cochise mean anything like that? And yes, the constant bass probably creates new harmonies. A Jazz musician can probably write them down with many numbers and slashes . - Traditional feel / old organs: Yes. In some newer MO works, I sometimes think the keyboards are quite fat, with lots of reverb and FX. How about a simple old organ instead? Only Time Will Tell (TSODE) has the 'constant note' effect again, this time on guitar. -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

tubularbills Group: Members Posts: 528 Joined: Aug. 2000 Posted: Oct. 25 2000, 16:46 I love that sound!!!!!!!!!!!!! The single note in "Only Time Will Tell" from TSODE!!!! So relaxing yet mesmorizing at the same time. The beginning of TSODE does seem to have an eerie feeling to it. It's so relaxing. Makes your mind drift away. -------------- Terrible, Wonderful, Crazy, Perfect. Back to top

Unregistered Posted: Oct. 26 2000, 17:25 The purpose of the "long" bass notes is in fact a musical technique mike's used called a drone ... that is a single note that's based at the root of whatever particular scale is in use at the time... this technique is used mainly by banjo'ists but is applied elsewhere. Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 27 2000, 15:57 Thanks PMT. Interesting. I also think that bagpipes produce a similar effect. They have some pipes which produce the same note all the time. Maybe we should check Mike's bagpipe pieces, e.g. Tattoo. -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Jammer Group: Members Posts: 641 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 27 2000, 19:47 Magellan has bagpipes in it but doesn't have any repeating bass. The repeated note in Oceana/Only Time Will tell is a bit too mechanical for me. The best bit of the whole album is the very atmospheric first two tracks I feel that he spent more time working on those than some other bits of the album Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 28 2000, 15:12 Magellan: I agree. The bass (which is done on keyboards) changes with the chords. No idea what this means, maybe the bagpipes are samples. BTW, what I said applies to Scottish bagpipes only, not to Uillean (Irish) ones. Mastermind (TMB) again has the stationary Bass. And the sleeve notes say "...sinister underground ambience". -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Oct. 28 2000, 20:33 That feel that Mike's original works had is probably down to just about everything he doesn't do now (Hmm...that was a difficult conclusion to come to...). There were things like the unusual time signatures (Mike at the time of TB wanted to make music that people couldn't dance to easily...an interesting thought now...TB's intro used something like three bars of 7/8 and one of 9/8). There are some interesting bits on those first albums where two rhythms almost seem to conflict at first, but as you think about them start to settle in with each other. Then there's the way all the parts weave in between each other... The feel of those albums comes down to the mood that was created when they were recorded...the atmosphere in the studio and that type of thing. Just the way Mike felt, even. I think the way they were created as well is important...some of the reverb sounds and things like that on the early albums have that wonderful distant 'spooky' sound to them that seems lost on his later works (people on one side of those analogue/digital arguments will nod knowingly at this point). I find that Mike's work now gets polished to the point of being synthetic. That's a state that's very easy to get into with all the technology that's around, but it's not necessarily good for the music. It's something that Mike seems to be shaping into a new signature sound, though... Drone notes are something that interests me a lot. My guess is that the idea of them pre dates even the bagpipes (and certainly the banjo, although that instrument has fairly ancient roots in africa). A lot of instruments have drones - sitars, appalacian dulcimers, all sorts of things. Certainly things like the didjeridu (or however you fancy spelling it...I think I've seen at least three different ways ) have been used to provide drone notes in music for many thousands of years. Often very ancient things like that were used for a purpose - their hypnotic effects, for example. They do turn up in all sorts of places in Mike's early works as well - like in those extended vocal notes in Ommadawn. A similar thing is repeating figures - like in the intro of Tubular Bells, where one part repeats while the chords change underneath it. Those things can be fascinating to experiment with - keeping a drone note going and changing the chords on top, bringing in different repeating elements, then bring in some things following different rhythms...keep you amused for hours... Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 29 2000, 13:56 Hi Korgscrew. Nice to discuss with you again. Yes, I too think that studio atmosphere is also important. When Mike made TBII, he tried to design the studio to look similar to the 'Old Manor House' (Elements video). So I think he DID try to reproduce the atmosphere - but things like that are difficult. How shall we call the effect that you spotted in TB - a 'reverse drone'? Maybe we can also find that in other works. And let's also look for unusual time signatures! I think there are some in TBII. -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 29 2000, 15:07 She Moves Through The Fair (Voyager) has the drone on choir. Similar to Only Time Will Tell. -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 29 2000, 17:04 Talking about unusual time signatures, here's what I hear in MO's records. Incantations: 1) 7/8 trumpet solo in the middle of Part 1. 2) 14:35 and 14:55 in Part 1: two other 7/8 bars in a very regular 4/4 rhythm. 3) Some of the guitar/synth solo (from 8:36 onwards) in Part 3 is HIGHLY irregular (constant alternation of 3/4 and 4/4 bars...something like Pink Floyd's "Money"). Platinum: Possible 15/16 irregularity in the transition between Charleston and North Star. FMO: Some 2/4 bars in the 4/4 rhythm of the loud guitar intro of Taurus II. Crises: 1) In High Places alternates constantly between 2/4 and 4/4 bars, plus a 3/4 one, before stabilizing to 4/4 in the choruses. 2) Taurus III: the transition between the two main tunes happens by means of a very fast 2/4 bar in a 4/4 rhythm. TKF: 1) Many of the bar divisions of Evacuation are irregular. 5/4, 7/8, 9/8 and 15/16 over a steady 4/4 underlying rhythm from the synth. 2) The very first bar of Étude sounds like it's 4/4, but then it suddenly becomes 3/4. Islands: 1) In Magic Touch, the first two times that the lyrics "magic touch" are sung, they end in an half-bar (2/4). 2) Same for all the choruses in Flying Start. The lyrics "...sang in one voice" do ALWAYS end in an half-bar (2/4). [This is a device often used in melodic pop songs written by REAL musicians... ] 3) I don't remember exactly where or how, but some of the Mad Bits in TWC are irregular. (Maybe once again a 15/16 beat). Amarok: 1) The Fast Riff, every time it is repeated, is highly irregular, being almost entirely built over a 15/16 or 30/32 bar. 2)Almost the whole of Fast Waltz is in 3/4, but the ending bar of the chord sequence that starts in A minor (e.g. the bass solo in the Intro) is 4/4. 3) The Mandolin sections start in 4/4 and end in 2/4. [A friend of mine, who's a professional guitarist, told me this.] 4) ??? [There are some others I don't remember right now. ] TBII: 1) An exceeding 1/4 beat in a 4/4 rhythm, at 2:19, 2:25, 2:30, 2:36, 3:46, 3:51, 3:57, and 4:02 in Sentinel. 2) Steady 5/4 rhythm in the last section of Clear Light (from 3:32 onwards). 3) 4/4 bars in a 6/8 rhythm in Tattoo. (Most obvious examples in the sections starting at 2:08 and 3:37. TBIII: Steady 9/8 rhythm in Moonwatch. (I don't know if this is irregular, but it's unusual!!) That's all I can think of at the moment. I'll post more curiosities if I remember 'em. See, Carsten? "Strangeness" in MO's work is not limited to the TB intro!! -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 30 2000, 16:23 WOW, Ugo!!! What a great research! I'll listen to all of those when I find the time! But don't get me wrong: I didn't say that unusual time signatures or drones AUTOMATICALLY produce 'strangeness'. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. Also, 'strangeness' can come from other things than those, as our co-discussers pointed out. I'm looking forward to your reporting more curiosities. -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Oct. 30 2000, 17:32 Interesting with the time signatures... I believe that 9/8 is a signature that turns up in Irish music a fair amount. But what seems to come out of analasys like this, maybe more than anything else, is perhaps what we've known all along - that Mike often doesn't keep to anything like a set of rules. I agree that examples of this run through a lot of his music, but the TB intro is convenient. Mike just played it, and it flows perfectly. There's no trying to be clever there or anything in particular (at least, it doesn't come across to me as that) - he's just done what works for the music, going with something that creates what is probably the exact effect he wants. Chords are used by him in a similar way - actually write down the chords that are being played in some of those pieces and they're sometimes far from obvious (the kind with names that you look at and go "How the heck do I play one of those?"). They never sit uncomfortably, though (except in something like parts of The Killing Fields, where they're used to create an uncomfortable mood). Interesting indeed...but I'm starting to ramble... Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Nov. 06 2000, 16:23 Hi Ugo, concerning TBII: What you described for Sentinel, I put down like this: FROM MY BRAIN: (02:14) 4/4 3/4 4/4 3/4 4/4 3/4 4/4 3/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 2/4 (to guitar solo) -> Yes, there's the half bar at the end. FROM THE HEART: When that begins, it reminds me of TB, because the rhythm starts to 'stumble'. But the 'strange feeling' really enters with the 3rd line, ALTHOUGH it's plain 4/4!!!!!!! Strange, eh? BTW, I'm still fascinated how you pulled all that information out of your cuff... must (let's) check out more of it. Will be fun! To Korgscrew: Yeah, you say it! For Mike it's all natural, and maybe he isn't even AWARE of a strange rhythm or harmony when he plays it. But lesser people (like me) need some formal crutches to walk even a little distance on Mike's roads. So let's X-ray his works. -Carsten- -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

tubularbills Group: Members Posts: 528 Joined: Aug. 2000 Posted: Jan. 13 2001, 00:34 Ok, i know it's not really a huge difference, but i have a correction to be made concerning TB2. I do have the piano/guitar songbook of the entire album, and the time signatures in Sentinel are: The beginning piano, 20 secs. or so= 4/4. the last bar is 7/8, which leads into the following: Then it's 7/8, 9/8, 7/8, 9/8, etc... up until the "doubled with flute sound and acoutsitc guitar" is 4/4, 2/4, 4/4, 2/4, then back into 7/8, 9/8, 7/8, 9/8, etc... then at "Classical guitar" it goes back to 4/4 and remains that way until the end. Blue Saloon uses the time fram 12/8 all the way through except for the last 5 or 6 bars are 9/8 and then 4/4, 3/4. What is also kind of strange is that TB, TB2, & TB3 all have an "extra" note and the time signature for TB & TB2 shows it, but on TB3 it's a solid 4/4 time the whole way through even though there is that extra note in there. This kind of shows how TB & TB2 are more played more open and free, whereas TB3 is very closed and structured. -------------- Terrible, Wonderful, Crazy, Perfect. Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Jan. 13 2001, 18:11 Hi tubularbills, in my listening, Sentinel has only two irregularities: one from 02:14 (see above) and a very similar one from 03:41. The rest is 4/4. Ugo's 'exceeding beats' seem to match fine with this, only I would speak of 'missing' beats. Are you sure that songbook is accurate? TB3: I can't really spot an 'extra note' there. How can there be one, if it's all 4/4? But I agree, the connection between TB and TB2 is moch closer than with TB3. -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

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