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Topic: Second Life, Is anyone there?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Inkanta Offline




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Posted: May 24 2006, 21:24

Greetings!

One of the members of the Amarok Mailing List posted today regarding Second Life ( http://www.secondlife.com ), wondering if anyone has seen that environment.

Are any of you already SL members?

My library organization is involved in the construction of a Second Life library, which will offer real services and programs (some have already taken place) . I can't get the software to run properly on my laptop (the graphics do not work quite right on laptops, apparently), but I've had a few tours of it from my colleague who developed the SL library concept. Other SL possibilities threading through my mind for weeks: Art museums where artists would avail their paintings and have exhibitions; music studios where musicians could work on and offer their music individually or collaboratively; &  concerts. :)

My SL colleague thought music & concerts would be great (though at this point, one has to stream in the audio from elsewhere) and mentioned the BBC's concert involvement. I googled up an article about it--wow--the possibilities!


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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 03:11

Am I alone in finding this concept rather scary?
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jonnyw Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 03:22

Youre not alone alan!

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Glockenspeil.
Bass guitar.
Vocal chords.
Two slightly sampled electric guitars.
The venitian effect.
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Solo music - http://-terrapin-.bebo.com

Band music - http://www.rsimusic.com
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 03:50

Why is it scary? You guys already hang around in MVR,  fundamentally speaking chaps whats the difference?
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 05:24

Quote (TOBY @ May 25 2006, 08:50)
Why is it scary? You guys already hang around in MVR,  fundamentally speaking chaps whats the difference?

It's not necessarily a rational response - but an instinctive one.

There's a very clear distinction between MVR and reality. An hour pottering around Tr3sLunas is an enhancement of normal life, in the same sense as reading a novel is, or listening to Ommadawn. You inhabit a different imaginative world while you're doing those things, and you return to 'real' life refreshed and invigorated.

But the Second Life concept seems importantly different. It seems like the same kind of thing that 'normal' life consists of - except it isn't real. I think the scary part is the idea of becoming absorbed in such a virtual existence to the detriment of one's 'real' life: it would have all the worry, and stress, and hassle of real life, but with no actual 'real' outcome. And then, on a different tack: why would I want to go to a virtual art gallery when I can go to a real one? And what would it mean if I found myself choosing the former option more often, because it was so much easier? That would be desperately impoverishing.

But as I said, my response is instinctive. I'm not sure that my attempts at rationalising it are very solid. And maybe I haven't understood the concept properly (I stopped reading when I realised how scary it was! )
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 09:47

I won't be there: I never trust the "free" places that require you to register with a credit card. I'm also hoping that the SL idea gets replaced by a more open (perhaps from the open source software guys?) community that is less of a plutocracy run for profit that SL is. It does sound somewhat interesting, even if it seems to be a sort of on-line Disneyland, complete with the ability to pay for "E Tickets" of extra privileges.... or it is the first step at making Star Trek's Holodeck, already controlled by the Ferengi.

To respond to Alan's statement "And then, on a different tack: why would I want to go to a virtual art gallery when I can go to a real one? And what would it mean if I found myself choosing the former option more often, because it was so much easier? That would be desperately impoverishing."

Virtual art galleries sound QUITE appealing to me. It is a big understatement to say it is much easier to visit a virtual art gallery than to actually visit, let's say, the Louvre or that new exploded soda-can Guggenheim museum in Bilbao.....or even the older toilet-bowl Guggenheim museum in New York.

A visit to one of these actual places would indeed be very impoverishing, quite literally.


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"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
- Song of Hiawatha
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 11:33

Quote (hiawatha @ May 25 2006, 14:47)
It is a big understatement to say it is much easier to visit a virtual art gallery than to actually visit, let's say, the Louvre

That's not quite what I meant. Obviously if I can't go to the Louvre, then a virtual Louvre is better than nothing - in the same way as a book about the Louvre is.

But I'm concerned about the confusion that can occur between the virtual and the real - the danger of using the virtual world as a substitute for (rather than an extension of) the real world, and thinking it's adequate. Of course you could say that the same danger is inherent in books - you know that feeling of actually confronting a real work of art that you've seen for years only in reproduction - and the intense shock of discovering how inadequate the reproduction has been? I just feel that the risks of this kind of confusion are so much greater when they are presented through a virtual world. But I may just be over-reacting.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 14:00

It strikes me that this Second Life thing is pretty much anything you want it to be and it is certainly down to the user how they view these things. I mean the idea of 'existing' in MVR isn't really any different, fundamentally, I don't think.

I don't find the idea of any of these online virtual worlds scary but what I find sad and pretty dissapointing is that you don't have to go very far in them these days before you have to start parting with large amounts of money. I always thought the internet existed to be a place for all regardless of wealth. I don't begrudge paying Mike 12 quid or whatever for MVR but surely these virtual worlds like Second Life should be for everyone.

Why can't it be a socialist utopia, maybe communism would work in the virtual world   :D
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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 14:01

Quote (Alan D @ May 25 2006, 04:24)
But the Second Life concept seems importantly different. It seems like the same kind of thing that 'normal' life consists of - except it isn't real. I think the scary part is the idea of becoming absorbed in such a virtual existence to the detriment of one's 'real' life: it would have all the worry, and stress, and hassle of real life, but with no actual 'real' outcome. And then, on a different tack: why would I want to go to a virtual art gallery when I can go to a real one? And what would it mean if I found myself choosing the former option more often, because it was so much easier? That would be desperately impoverishing.

But as I said, my response is instinctive. I'm not sure that my attempts at rationalising it are very solid. And maybe I haven't understood the concept properly (I stopped reading when I realised how scary it was! )

I see setting up enriching institutions (libraries, galleries, etc.) as a way to reach over 220,000 people who are not the normal users or visitors to those places (though maybe they visit sometimes). What we have learned in studies of services like virtual reference is that in many cases we are reaching entirely different users, who are not driving or walking to their local libraries. As with virtual reference, a SLer may start out in the virtual world at the library, but s/he may end up back at the bricks and mortar one. You cannot look at most archival records online (well, a few, but if you're doing in depth research, it still normally requires a visit).  The difference is that now suddenly the library had become relevant to the online user.

IMHO web communities like Second Life can bring people together to collaborate interesting ways (well, some to sell things as well as to avail non-profit services, I suppose). For libraries, it is also a way to keep or get us relevant. I do think that many are also there to build community and friendships. There is also a teen version, which is more regulated than the other one. As a parent of teens, that scares me a bit, but I guess it's going all right.

Regarding virtual art galleries, some places are already doing this  (though not through SL). For real institutions, it would be a way to avail their collections to a wider audience that has wandered into Second Life. Not everyone can get to an exhibit. A couple examples that I came across recently while working on another project were the Royal Library in Copenhagen http://www.kb.dk/index-en.htm and the Corning Museum of Glass http://www.cmog.org/index.asp?pageId=1101. Especially in the case of the latter, not everything is there, but you get a sampling (maybe the exhibition catalogue in some cases) and information about the exhibit from the curators, as well. I, too, would rather visit these places in person. The online availability may draw some people from the virtual world to the bricks and mortar museums, just like with libraries.

Right now, it's also a community without much music, other than the BBC and maybe a few others. Seems to me that the early adapters of this will have a good time breaking new (virtual) ground.

I also think, Alan, that you are right to question it. It should certainly be seen as an extension and not a replacement. From what I have learned about it, you could disappear into it, never to be seen again (maybe I should leave a trail of bread crumbs??? ). Talk about falling right into the net.... ;) For some, it could become entirely addictive. Perhaps there will be psychologists specializing in Internet addiction (which is a real addiction) setting up their shingle to help.

SL seems to have all the things that go on in real life communities. There are power struggles within organizations and all the other baggage that afflicts real life societies (maybe not global warming at this point). Virtual organizations seem to go through the same cycle as real life groups that form for a given purpose (forming, storming, norming, performing) but there are also differences (I've been asked to do a program on this in SL once I finally ge there). :)  As someone with a background in anthropology who has an interest in the anthropology of online communities, I see this as potential research that will shed even more light on group behavior.


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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 14:25

Quote (TOBY @ May 25 2006, 14:00)
Why can't it be a socialist utopia, maybe communism would work in the virtual world   :D

I'll met you there. We'll set up their first gulag, and make sure giant posters of Stalin annoint all blank walls.

--------------
"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
- Song of Hiawatha
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 16:46

Quote (TOBY @ May 25 2006, 19:00)
I mean the idea of 'existing' in MVR isn't really any different, fundamentally, I don't think.

One difference, I suspect, is in its ability to consume the person using it. A 2-hour flight in Tres Lunas once every couple of weeks or so is about as much as MVR could sustain in the long term, I suspect (which is what it has now settled down to).

This Second Life construction looks alarmingly bottomless by comparison.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: May 25 2006, 16:59

Quote (Inkanta @ May 25 2006, 19:01)
It should certainly be seen as an extension and not a replacement. From what I have learned about it, you could disappear into it, never to be seen again

Yes, you've correctly identified the root of my misgivings there, Mary-Carol.

In one way I can see that I'm being unnecessarily suspicious, in that there's essentially no difference between the kind of addiction this might create, and the addictiveness of TV or even novel-reading. Any one thing, followed progressively to greater and greater excess, leads ultimately to ruin; but equally, used sensibly, most things can be life-enhancing. The idea of truly extending one's life in the way you describe is very attractive.

And yet ... the idea of those virtual power struggles, within groups that have no real meaning, gives me the shivers. To take our worst follies from real life and transpose them into a virtual life.... my goodness; it's here where I would draw my own personal line, I think.
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larstangmark Offline




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Posted: May 26 2006, 06:10

Quote (hiawatha @ May 25 2006, 14:25)
I'll met you there. We'll set up their first gulag, and make sure giant posters of Stalin annoint all blank walls.

While we're on the subject, I would say that socialism is already there in the "virtual world", in the sense the non-material ("virtual") property is impossible to own because of files-sharing etc. And all this without Stalin or Gulag...

I see something like Second World as an attempt to create a virtual world with all the faults and errors of the real world. The great thing about the internet is that there is no moderator who can ban you from being online or creating websites.


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Piltdownboy on horseback 22 Offline




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Posted: May 26 2006, 10:15

"surfing, I've fallen right into the net"

It'd be a bit like that.
Fascinating to read, but I get a very resisting feeling when reading this. I think it's a shame so many real things are substituted by virtual things. In our town a lot specialist shops keep on dissappearing, because 'who wants to buy a bed in a store, or a book, or a cd, if you can buy it from internet'.
I like some modern things. I like internet to some extense (msn, reading my email and visiting tubular, that's about all I do online), and I do like DVD technology, but I can get very frustrated when I see all the mobile phones around me wherever I'm walking. That's why I don't like em and don't have one. What I mean is, that, with this thing about SL, and all those kind of things, I find it a bit hard to see the way everything changes


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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: July 06 2006, 20:00

I have finally found my way in....wowwww....all I can say....hmmm....."and the woman in the beautiful world picked up her bag of secrets, and FLEW up the mountainside, far above the clouds, and nothing was ever heard from her again... not even the sound of Tubular Bells..." If you venture into http://www.secondlife.com my SL name is Korrigan Keynes. I don't know my way around very well yet, and spent most of my time flying and crashing into things, or taking way-deep dives into the sea, by accident (will probably have horrible dreams tonight) ! When I stumbled into what looked like a cemetery and saw what seemed to be ghosts, I thought that maybe I had killed myself! Mais non! Whew!

[Edited to add] Apparently the Louvre had its grand opening in SL today!


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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: July 06 2006, 22:21

How much do you pay to play Second Life?

--------------
"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
- Song of Hiawatha
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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: July 06 2006, 23:12

So far, I haven't spent anything but there are all kinds of things you can buy--new hair, jewelry, islands...the usual. :) The unit of money is the Linden (after the Linden corporation) and it fluctuates on the daily market. My colleague has taken pity on me and is getting me some new hair as I type (cos I couldn't figure that out yet, it's getting late...we have day jobs). I designed my own clothing. You can do lots of things that don't cost anything--for example, attend programs @ the library. :)  I literally stumbled into a kiosk for an SL branch of the Relay for Life raising money for cancer research program.

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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: July 07 2006, 06:00

So you can get by without spending anything if you go naked and homeless and bling-free?

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"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
- Song of Hiawatha
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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: July 07 2006, 06:43

You don't have to wander about skyclad--you're given clothes when you create your avatar. I suspect that most of the 300,000 people have their homes in their first life, and just visit SL. :)  BTW...there are some "mixed reality" events there, as well. :laugh:

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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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bevy Offline




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Posted: July 29 2006, 16:50

LOL NICE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCH01_lMB7Q&search=MIKEOLDFIELD
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