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Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: July 05 2007, 01:05 The subject of Romanticism as applicable to MO was recently brought up in a Voyager thread. So as to not threadjack and to broaden the scope, I'm transplanting the discussion here. From me: Quote Alan's mention of 'romanticism' has got me thinking on whether or not most of MO's work could be considered 'romantic'. I certainly feel that all of Voyager is, with Mike pulling out all the stops on "Mont St. Michel". From Alan D: Quote I suppose I introduced the dreaded 'R' word without thinking too carefully about it - because of course it has a number of meanings, and so people are likely to interpret it in different ways. Looking at the dictionary definition of 19th century Romanticism - "characterized by an emphasis on subjective emotional qualities and freedom of form" - I'd say most of Mike's music falls within that definition (except for the 19th century aspect! ). When I was writing about Mont St Michel, though, I had a looser definition in mind - again, consulting the dictionary for one of the other definitions of 'romantic', I get 'marked by the imaginative or emotional appeal of what is heroic, adventurous, remote, mysterious, or idealized'. It was in that sense that I was using it when I was talking about Mont St Michel; or at least, the 'remote, mysterious, idealized' part. I sometimes notice elements of Romanticism (I should probably capitalize this?) in MO's music. As Alan D has said, it isn't easy to define. In addition to the previously mentioned 'freedom of form', I see Romanticism as eschewing the mundanities of the material world while embracing inner feelings (or 'subjective emotional qualities') and otherworldliness which might not be different from 'remote, mysterious, and idealized', but also includes exoticism and spiritualism. One could try to break it down to individual aspects: freedom of form: in abandoning a prescribed structure, one could be said to "march to a different drummer". Outside of his handful of attempts to compromise and fit himself into a box, I think - in general - this is applicable to MO. Tubular Bells and Amarok may be the most notable examples of 'freedom of form'. This is not to say that they have no forms, just unusual ones. idealism: I'm going to go with the common equation of 'optimism' rather than with the philosophical doctrine. I find The Millenium Bell to be a prime example of MO's idealism - history filtered through his positronic lens - a true celebration. And I doubt anyone would argue with the very uplifting and hopeful character of The Songs Of Distant Earth. exoticism: MO's use of ethnic sounds such as African drums, and Indian sitar are manifestations of this. They occur in Ommadwan, Amarok, and Tubular Bells 3. otherworldliness: The Songs of Distant Earth might be an obvious choice, here, but I'm going to go with the "Martian" section from Hergest Ridge. TSODE is, despite it's setting, all about human civilization (IIRC), whereas the "Martian" music is quite definately 'other'. Overly literal? Well, I also qualify the mystical Incantations as 'otherworldly' or 'spiritual'. So, while perhaps not all of the elements of Romanticism are present in all of MO's work, I certainly see a few in some of them. (PS: I'd like you all to know that I wrote this whilst being bombarded by the FLASH, CRACKLE, and BOOM of fireworks going off all over the neighborhood. Pity me because, if previous Independence Days are anything to go by, this cacophony will continue till the wee hours. Happy 4th to my fellow countrymen.) -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: July 05 2007, 04:25 Quote (Sweatpea @ July 05 2007, 06:05) I sometimes notice elements of Romanticism (I should probably capitalize this?) in MO's music. As Alan D has said, it isn't easy to define. Actually it might be a good idea to use 'Romantic' when we're talking in a 19th century sense, and 'romantic' when we talking in the looser, more modern sense - otherwise we'll get ourselves into all sorts of tangles because we'll be using the same word for different things. If we imagine MO transported into the 19th Century, then we would now be speaking of him as a Romantic, wouldn't we? His music is infused with his personality in the same way that Beethoven's is. I was listening to some Haydn quartets a few weeks ago and was very struck by the domination of form over feeling - they seemed almost formulaic. I was then told by a friend who had actually composed a quartet in the Haydn style, that they are indeed formulaic, and that once you got started there was a rule to fall back on for everything. That, for me, seems to put down a dividing line, on the other side of which is Romanticism, reaching out beyond those established forms. The search beyond established forms in the music seems to symbolise the emotional, spiritual reaching out that often seems to characterise the Romantic plight: "here I am in this vast, scary, beautiful universe, with no apparent limits, and OMG!" To take a work like Ommadawn: it's so idiosyncratic and characterful that I really do feel in touch with a personality when I listen to it. And the guitar solo at the end of part 1 is the epitome of the expression of the Romantic plight; it's as if he's determined to find out just how far his guitar playing (parallel to his anguish, his passion) can go. There was no way, at the outset, of predicting that; no safe formula; everything is risked. (The same is true of Amarok, perhaps even more so - but of course we argue constantly about the extent to which he succeeded there.) Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: July 05 2007, 09:01 I tend to think of Mike's music as a special brand of postmodern art. Whereas the modernist movement sought to, more or less, wipe out anything that had come before and establish a completely new aesthetic, postmodernism takes the more relaxed attitude of embracing the achievements of modernism as one possibility among many, freely mixing them with, and applying them to, all kinds of other elements old and new, familiar and exotic, etc. Thus, postmodernism is neither anti-romantic (like modernism is/was), nor anti-modern. Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: July 05 2007, 20:20 Quote (Alan D @ July 05 2007, 04:25) To take a work like Ommadawn: it's so idiosyncratic and characterful that I really do feel in touch with a personality when I listen to it. And the guitar solo at the end of part 1 is the epitome of the expression of the Romantic plight; it's as if he's determined to find out just how far his guitar playing (parallel to his anguish, his passion) can go. There was no way, at the outset, of predicting that; no safe formula; everything is risked. I'm glad you brought that up. For some reason I neglected the 'emotionalism' aspect of Romanticism. Holger, my knowledge of modernism and postmodernism is pretty small. From your description, I get an inkling of what you mean - hybridization (or 'polybridization' if that's even a word?), no? If I were to pick one work that I feel embodies postmodernism, as I understand it, it would be Amarok. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: July 06 2007, 02:50 Quote (Holger @ July 05 2007, 14:01) I tend to think of Mike's music as a special brand of postmodern art. I can see why you said this, but I feel uncomfortable with it. The problem with postmodernism is that it's a term virtually impossible to define: at one level it leads, as you say, to the idea of 'ransack the past for whatever you like - it's all up for grabs'; but ultimately it always seems to degenerate into a kind of universal cynicism. When anything goes, nothing really matters. A conversation with a postmodern critic, for example, is deeply unsatisfactory. He's not interested in what art might mean (indeed he would deny that there is any ultimate 'meaning' ), but only in how it came to be constructed. I may be wrong, but I don't sense this kind of cynicism in most of Mike's music. But when Sweatpea describes Amarok as his most post-modern work she may be right, and I can see why she would say that, because indeed it's based on the idea that anything can be used to make music ('bring on the glass of water chaps!' ). And it does indeed have its own form of inbuilt cynicism, because it presents what we'd all recognise as emotional passages and slaps them up against dadaist or surreal passages ('happy?' ). He's always had a tendency to do this, but Amarok is the extreme example of it. And having said all that, I still find myself thinking, yes, OK, all very reasonable, but inside Amarok is a steaming Romantic trying to get out. A postmodern Mike would have ended the piece with a vacuum cleaner or a boiling kettle. But the real Mike doesn't do that - instead he lets that stupendous, triumphant, life-affirming outburst out of the bag, and it has the last word. That's a very Romantic gesture. Maybe Mike Oldfield is a Romantic wolf in a postmodern sheep's clothing? Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: July 06 2007, 16:39 Well, maybe I've made up a personal idea of what "postmodern" means that isn't entirely in line with the accepted definition - but that's why I said "a special brand of postmodern art". As you say, postmodernism is hard to define anyway, so maybe we could then say that Mike's type of postmodernism is one that leans more to the romantic side? I once helped my wife write a paper on "modernism and postmodernism" and that's when I thought, "well, Mike is really a postmodernist, too! But in his own, very special way." Take the very beginning of Incantations. Those vocal chords (no pun intended) are held too long to be "natural" - they have to be looped in order to last that long. While Incantations could certainly be said to be a work of a romantic nature, it is this awareness of the possibilities modern technology offers to enhance his music that sets Mike apart from someone who would merely write in a traditional way for some kind of ensemble or orchestra, which is what I imagine a "romanticist" would do. His music is littered with that kind of thing - indeed, it is the very nature of his music, with the many overdubs that give the impression of a large ensemble when it is in fact only a handful of musicians performing. I'd agree that Amarok is the work which fits the usual meaning of "postmodern" the closest, but I still feel that most of his music can be described as postmodern in its very own, idiosyncratic way. But at the end of the day, of course, that's just a word, a label, which might or might not be applied to someone as unique as Mike. Hmm. I'm not sure I've made myself clear here; for some reason I found it difficult to write a reply that would properly explain what I meant. Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: July 07 2007, 18:11 I fell in love to Ommadawn   , earlier this year .  Oh sorry that wasn't what was meant by Romanticism. Don't mind me I was admitted into hospital on Sunday evening , with stomach/pelvic area pains. I'm awaiting test results, I'm on three lots of anitbiotics and they've knocked me for six these past few days, so if I seem a bit scatty it's the drugs man.   Quote Sweatpea   Posted on July 05 2007, 05:05The subject of Romanticism as applicable to MO was recently brought up in a Voyager thread. So as to not threadjack and to broaden the scope, I'm transplanting the discussion here. From me: Quote Alan's mention of 'romanticism' has got me thinking on whether or not most of MO's work could be considered 'romantic'. I certainly feel that all of Voyager is, with Mike pulling out all the stops on "Mont St. Michel". From Alan D: Quote I suppose I introduced the dreaded 'R' word without thinking too carefully about it - because of course it has a number of meanings, and so people are likely to interpret it in different ways. Looking at the dictionary definition of 19th century Romanticism - "characterized by an emphasis on subjective emotional qualities and freedom of form" - I'd say most of Mike's music falls within that definition (except for the 19th century aspect! ). When I was writing about Mont St Michel, though, I had a looser definition in mind - again, consulting the dictionary for one of the other definitions of 'romantic', I get 'marked by the imaginative or emotional appeal of what is heroic, adventurous, remote, mysterious, or idealized'. It was in that sense that I was using it when I was talking about Mont St Michel; or at least, the 'remote, mysterious, idealized' part. I sometimes notice elements of Romanticism (I should probably capitalize this?) in MO's music. As Alan D has said, it isn't easy to define. In addition to the previously mentioned 'freedom of form', I see Romanticism as eschewing the mundanities of the material world while embracing inner feelings (or 'subjective emotional qualities' and otherworldliness which might not be different from 'remote, mysterious, and idealized', but also includes exoticism and spiritualism. One could try to break it down to individual aspects: freedom of form: in abandoning a prescribed structure, one could be said to "march to a different drummer". Outside of his handful of attempts to compromise and fit himself into a box, I think - in general - this is applicable to MO. Tubular Bells and Amarok may be the most notable examples of 'freedom of form'. This is not to say that they have no forms, just unusual ones. idealism: I'm going to go with the common equation of 'optimism' rather than with the philosophical doctrine. I find The Millenium Bell to be a prime example of MO's idealism - history filtered through his positronic lens - a true celebration. And I doubt anyone would argue with the very uplifting and hopeful character of The Songs Of Distant Earth. exoticism: MO's use of ethnic sounds such as African drums, and Indian sitar are manifestations of this. They occur in Ommadwan, Amarok, and Tubular Bells 3. otherworldliness: The Songs of Distant Earth might be an obvious choice, here, but I'm going to go with the "Martian" section from Hergest Ridge. TSODE is, despite it's setting, all about human civilization (IIRC), whereas the "Martian" music is quite definately 'other'. Overly literal? Well, I also qualify the mystical Incantations as 'otherworldly' or 'spiritual'. So, while perhaps not all of the elements of Romanticism are present in all of MO's work, I certainly see a few in some of them. I would say that Amarok has to be Mike's most weird work, the one I've had the most difficulty getting into, apart from his 80's more poppy stuff. Yep i would say that Ommadawn is exotic for it's groundbreaking use of what would now be termed "World Music", but that would also possibly come under idealism and freedom of form, in that Ommadawn follows no set rules, in fact I wonder if another band/artist would get away with putting a nursery rhyme at the closing of an album. Wasn't Ommadawn about Mike creating a catharsis for himself. Tubular Bells - yep i would say that is all over the place as regards time signatures, when you think that most rock pieces have 4/4 time, but the unusual time signatures have done no harm to sales. To me it seems to be one of those albums people love or hate. I would be interested in knowing what was going through Mike's head when he wrote TB, to me TB I don't feel sad or gloomy when I play TB, if I'm sad or angry I find TB the ultimate Primal Scream Therapy, given Mike's difficult childhood/teenage years I wonder if this is what he had in mind. Hergest Ridge I would describe as possibly Mike's most romantic album. Yep it has a pastoral tranquil feel to it, as Mike was oviously inspired by the countryside surrounding his home,  but then Hergest Ridge goes into this wonderfully crazy "Martian Section" , yes that's otherworldly. TSODE _ I always seen to think of that as about life on another planet , but I think it's actually about the environmental destruction of the Earth, and it's renewal in "A New Beginning". Is Mike's music Romantic, yep I would say that it certainally has elements of Romanticism about it. I hope that post made sense as I took my antibiotics a little while ago, and they make me feel rather stoned. -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: July 07 2007, 18:49 Quote (moonchildhippy @ July 08 2007, 00:11) I hope that post made sense as I took my antibiotics a little while ago, and they make me feel rather stoned. Yes, it makes sense to me. Get well soon! Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: July 15 2007, 23:12 moonchildhippy hippy said: Quote I fell in love to Ommadawn   , earlier this year .  Oh sorry that wasn't what was meant by Romanticism. I wouldn't mind some of that sort of romanticism. Lucky you! Quote Don't mind me I was admitted into hospital on Sunday evening , with stomach/pelvic area pains. I'm awaiting test results, I'm on three lots of anitbiotics and they've knocked me for six these past few days, so if I seem a bit scatty it's the drugs man. Sounds like you're having a pretty rough time. I hope you feel better soon. Quote Hergest Ridge I would describe as possibly Mike's most romantic album. Yep it has a pastoral tranquil feel to it, as Mike was oviously inspired by the countryside surrounding his home,  but then Hergest Ridge goes into this wonderfully crazy "Martian Section" , yes that's otherworldly. When I link MO with Romanticism, I tend to think of Hergest Ridge right away, so I agree that it's a highly romantic work. I should listen to part 2 more often, as I tend to mostly replay part 1 over and over. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: July 17 2007, 12:44 Quote (Sweatpea @ July 16 2007, 03:12) moonchildhippy hippy said: Quote I fell in love to Ommadawn   , earlier this year .  Oh sorry that wasn't what was meant by Romanticism. I wouldn't mind some of that sort of romanticism. Lucky you! Quote Don't mind me I was admitted into hospital on Sunday evening , with stomach/pelvic area pains. I'm awaiting test results, I'm on three lots of anitbiotics and they've knocked me for six these past few days, so if I seem a bit scatty it's the drugs man. Sounds like you're having a pretty rough time. I hope you feel better soon. Quote Hergest Ridge I would describe as possibly Mike's most romantic album. Yep it has a pastoral tranquil feel to it, as Mike was oviously inspired by the countryside surrounding his home,  but then Hergest Ridge goes into this wonderfully crazy "Martian Section" , yes that's otherworldly. When I link MO with Romanticism, I tend to think of Hergest Ridge right away, so I agree that it's a highly romantic work. I should listen to part 2 more often, as I tend to mostly replay part 1 over and over. I'm sure your time will come Sweetpea, I think love creeps up on you when you least expect it . I'm just  playing Ommadawn now. Yep at least the pains gone, but the antibiotics knocked me out, did also have quite a bit of bleeding, so feel doing things I'd normally do in a day wears me out. Trying to get back to normal, well physically normal, as mentally I'll aways be "nuts" but in the nicest possible way  . Yep agreed Hergest Ridge is Mike's most romantic album, you'll get me started on my love of the Herefordshire countryside. I would say Herefordshire is England's most unspoilt county, yep every time I listen to Hergest Ridge I'm transported back there.  I can reccommend listening to HR in it's entirity.  Just had a thought involving Hergest Ridge (the album, possibly the place) , my boyfriend and me, just perfect for us free spirited hippy children    . -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: July 23 2007, 02:17 moonchildhippy, I've also recently revisited Ommadawn.  I wasn't thinking of Romanticism, at the time, but it did occur to me that it was (as I've seen someone mention elsewhere) too short! I don't want to think too much on what the new album - Music of the Spheres - is going to sound like, but whenever I allow myself to mull over it, I keep imagining it will be something along the lines of "Lake Constance", but on a grander scale, and thus a highly Romantic work. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

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