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Topic: Overdubbing & multitracking< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Jammer Offline




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Posted: July 24 2000, 20:12

The questions that I am slightly afraid to ask because they're probably very obvious are:

-Can you do overdubbing on a multitrack tape recorder?

-What are all the tracks for? If you were to record 4 tracks of acoustic playing simaltaneously wouldn't you be better off doing it as one track?

-Could you still do overdubbing on a 2 track portastudio? and what difference would it have than if you were to do it on a 4-track?

-Is it quite difficult to do 2300 overdubs on a 4-track? or is it impossible because when you try to continually mix down the tracks over and over would you loose so much sound quality even on the best tapes that you wouldn't be able to hear the very first recording you made on the tape?

-Would a recording using over 2000 overdubs sound even worse that the quality of an unremastered version of TB (this is using an up-to-date multitrack tape recorder)?

-and if you can't do overdubbing on a multitrack recorder what *do* you use them for anyway?

Please help me out on this, guys. Thanks
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rosko Offline




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Posted: July 25 2000, 09:53

NOTE: Questions answered in the order they were asked.

1. There is no reason why you can't use overdubbing on a multi-track recorder, but the point of a multi-track recorder is to limit the need for overdubbing by allowing you to record all the instruments on separate tracks. This gives you the ability to control the volume of each intrument independently. You would only need overdubbing if you ran out of tracks.

2. I guess my previous answer explained what all the tracks are for. You would NOT be better off recording it all on one track because then you couldn't control the volume of each instrument independently. Besides, overdubbing is a cumbersome and difficult process. Multi-track recording is simply a matter of recording a track, recording another on a different track while the other one is playing (for syncronisation reasons) and so on.

3. I'm not familiar with "portastudios" but I suppose that overdubbing is a proccess which could be applied to any system (even though it is a poor method). If you are using overdubbing to record everything on the one track, there is no difference whether it is a 2 or 4 track recorder since you would not use all of the tracks. NOTE: If you have less tracks available than the amount of tracks you want to record together then overdubbing will be neccessary. It is best to have a multi-track recorder with at least the same amount of tracks you will be recording.

4. I think the reason you mentioned the use of 2300 overdubs is because you think that this is what Mike used for Tubular Bells. This is a myth however - Tubular Bells had nowhere near that many, and neither did any of his other albums! Yes, it would seriously degrade the sound quality and I certainly wouldn't recommend trying it.

5. Yes, it would sound worse - because TB didn't use that many of course. On a modern multi-track recorder with an adequate number of tracks, you wouldn't need overdubbing anyway.

6. As I have stated before, it is possible to do overdubbing with a multi-track recorder, but this would defeat the purpose of having one. That purpose is to have the different instruments recorded on separate tracks so that the volume levels of each can be altered independently. When you have found the right mix of volumes that you want, you can record a master tape of that mix.

I hope that helps you out. It is a bit hard explaining these things to someone who isn't quite familiar with the principles of multi-track recording and overdubbing. If you find anything I have written unclear or confusing, I'll be happy to clarify it if you post another message.

[This message has been edited by rosko (edited 07-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by rosko (edited 07-25-2000).]
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: July 25 2000, 10:00

No,2distorted,don't be afraid... they're not "very obvious". At least for someone who, unlike me smile, Korgscrew and CarstenKuss smile, does not go too deep into investigating the way in which the music we like was recorded.

1) Yes, you can. Multitracking exists primarily for that purpose.

2) If the 4 guitars were playing the same melody, then more than one track would be useless (except in the case you'd like to obtain a very powerful, "fat" sound.). But if the guitars are playing different melodies (as it happens with most of MO's guitars: one does an arpeggio, another is strummed, a third one does the solo...etc), the more the tracks they are recorded on, the better they sound.

3) You can record one track and then overdub the other and that's it. Then you can "bounce" down the whole thing into a single track of a 2-track tape, so you have another empty track to overdub on...this can be repeated an infinite number of times (but the quality of the recording suffers from it, because the sound becomes saturated). A lot of the Beatles' most elaborate songs before 1967 were done this way.

4) This has been partly answered in no. 3. Sure, you lose quality, but if your aim is obtaining a big explosion of sound from a relatively small number of instruments [as in the crescendos of "A Day in the Life"... excuse me for quoting the Beatles again... smile], or like in the Thunderstorm section of Hergest Ridge, you just don't care about the overall sound quality, or about the fact that the first recording can be heard no more. It's the final sound that matters.

5) It depends on the number of available tracks. TB was recorded on 16 tracks, it contains over 2000 overdubs and, of course, it sounds pretty good... smile. If you were to record TB on a present-day desk, with 100+ tracks, you could do over 20000 overdubs and it would still sound very good.

6) I think I've answered this, haven't I? smile If you think I haven't, just tell me.

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Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
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Jammer Offline




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Posted: July 26 2000, 18:28

So you can overdub normally just using a basic tape recorder without the need for a multitrack?

Please tell me how you do this. I might even be able to do it on my minidisc recorder (but probably not)
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 26 2000, 20:21

I made a point of actually checking up on this first...

The official definition of overdubbing is simply recording new tracks on a tape that already has tracks recorded on it.

1. All multitrack recorders intended for music recording are able to do overdubbing. There may be some multitracks intended for other purposes that are unable to do this (your chances of coming across one are probably very minimal).

2. The tracks are for many things. The main reason is so you can record many parts onto there, then be able to alter the mix of them, or add effects to individual instruments later. Sometimes tracks may be used for things like timecode - data that can be fed into other pieces of equipment which allows them to be synchronised perfectly (for example, so that words recorded on the tape stay in sync with a video picture).
Recording 4 tracks of the same thing would, like Ugo says, create a bigger sound. This is called double tracking, and is used quite often. When a part is played more than once by a musician, the slight tuning and timing differences make the part sound much bigger and fatter. It's the same as you get with an orchestra - the fact that there are more than one violin, cello, etc creates a big 'chorused' effect that sounds very different from the instruments on their own.
Recording tracks with different things on them gives the music a more complex sound.
The reason for recording things onto separate tracks is to keep control over it. If you record 4 musicians to 4 tracks and one of them makes a mistake, it's possible to go back and 'punch in' over that mistake (basically record that part again, hopefully getting it right...) without losing what the other 3 musicians have played. It would, however, be possible to record all 4 people to one track (or better, 2 tracks and have it in stereo), but it means mistakes are harder to correct like that, and the mix can't be altered after it has been recorded (any effects used after recording would also have to be applied to all the parts, rather than just one). Sometimes when people are pushed for tracks, doing a live recording or something, things like drums will be mixed to a stereo pair during recording, rather than recording the output of each drum mic on a separate track (which at its most basic would use 3 tracks and would more likely use somewhere around 8 depending on the size of drum kit). It is not uncommon to record an orchestra to 2 tracks (using a stereo pair of microphones hung somewhere in the hall or wherever they're playing).
Of course, the other advantage of having tracks separate like they are on a multitrack recorder, is that it allows a musician (like Mike) to record many parts, but play all the instruments himself (or herself) - once one has been recorded, he can go back and overdub another. It would be possible to do this just by mixing the output of a tape recorder with something new (an instrument) and recording the result to another tape recorder, but with analogue recorders you would end up with a very low quality recording, as you'd be copying the tape many times.

3. I've never actually seen a 2 track portastudio...There are some that will only let you record to 2 tracks at once (but have 4 in total). Overdubbing on these would be no different to doing it on one that lets you record on all 4 at once, except that you wouldn't be able to overdub 3 things if you only had one track recorded at the beginning.

4. It depends on how the overdubs are being done, and how you're counting them...
By making overdubs at different points in the tape and counting each time you did that, you could count up 2300 overdubs eventually (although you might run out of tape before you've recorded that much...). That would be if you were overdubbing lots of tiny little separate instrument parts. If you were going to record mostly parts that last the whole length of the tape (or piece) then doing 2300 overdubs would involve a lot of bouncing down (Ugo talked about this), which would sound terrible after a few thousand times (in fact, most of the parts would disappear into a big mush and the tape would wear out - even the Tubular Bells master tape started to wear thin). Really, it's not particularly easy to do 2300 overdubs on anything...it would just involve so much work.

5. Like I said before, 2300 overdubs done by bouncing down tracks would sound awful.
With the remastered tubular bells, though...
Remastering is a slightly confusing term. Mastering, as such, refers to when they make the master for duplication - that's taking the stereo mix tape that was done in the studio, then putting that through various processors (or nowadays sometimes a computer) so that the levels are all ok for duplication, so that it sounds good (obviously partly done in the mixing, but 'tonal balance' is altered in mastering as well, often), as well as getting it into the right format for reproduction on CD, etc. Remastering is just taking the old studio mix (which has still been played off the old multitrack recorder) and putting it through modern processes - higher quality equalisers, compressors, etc, and digital editing, usually also removing clicks and noise with software plugins and things. Your tape with 2300 overdubs could, if recorded in the same way as Tubular Bells, sound like the remastered Tubular Bells. It could of course, sound better...

6. I think there are uses for multitracks that can't overdub, but I can't think of quite what they are right now....

I'll leave it at that for now...your head is probably hurting wink
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: July 26 2000, 20:59

Hi again, 2distorted...just an addition to KorgScrew's perfect Point 3 answer... [KgSc, you're the best!! smile Why don't you write to MO asking him to employ you as a sound engineer? biggrin] ...
I'm sure there is, somewhere, a tape recorder which can record and overdub on 4 tracks by using all the four tracks on a normal cassette tape. I think an American firm named Tascam makes something like this, but it's quite expensive...
I'm afraid you cannot overdub anything on a Minidisc frown because it records in an entirely different way (not with tracks).

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Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 26 2000, 22:49

Heh, thanks for the tip Ugo...maybe some day I'll try doing that wink

Ugo is right Tascam do make 4 track recorders that use normaly cassette tapes (Tascam is a Japanese firm, I think, and the professional division of Teac). The portastudio machines which 2distortedguitars mentioned work like that. Machines like the Tascam Porta 02 aren't particularly expensive - no more than a higher end hifi cassette recorder (about £100 if that's any help). Yamaha also make them, and Fostex did once, although they may have stopped now.

You could do a kind of overdubbing by bouncing between two minidisc recorders via a mixing desk, or between your MD recorder and a cassette recorder. I can't say that would give very good results, though - you'd be much better off getting some multitrack recording software for your computer, or buying a dedicated multitracker of some kind.
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rosko Offline




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Posted: July 27 2000, 09:56

I think that some of you might have the wrong idea of the term "overdubbing".

The process of recording several tracks on a multi-track is not referred to as overdubbing. Overdubbing is when you mix the tracks together by either recording a new track on top of the others on the same track (by disabling the erase head), or keep copying the recording while mixing in a new track each time.

In other words, overdubbing is the technique used when you don't have enough tracks for an intrument per track but instead put multiple recordings on one track.

Also, as I stated in my previous post:
TUBULAR BELLS DID NOT HAVE 2300 OVERDUBS AT ANY POINT!!!!
That is a media-hype myth!
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 27 2000, 19:51

I don't want to be one to argue, but...a few things...

This id from Sound on Sound magazine's website. In my view, this is a highly reliable publication...
OVERDUB: To add another part to a multitrack recording or to replace one of the existing parts.
Also have a look at www.groupeffort.com/Overdubs.html

The process of copying the recording while mixing in new parts is known as bouncing down (although this, I guess, is a form of overdubbing).

I've never seen people mixing sources together by disabling the erase head in that way, and can't really see it giving particularly high quality results...I know that Mike managed something by blocking parts of the erase head with cardboard though, so...I'd be very interested if you could give me (us) more information on this technique - perhaps web pages that explain it in greater detail, info on recordings that have been done using this technique, etc.

Thanks to anyone who can help on this (rosko...over to you) smile
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rosko Offline




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Posted: July 28 2000, 10:29

The reason I think that adding another track to a multi-track recording isn't overdubbing is because there is no "dubbing" involved in the technique. Covering up the erase head certainly sounds like it could be called "overdubbing" since it is the process of "dubbing over" what you already have.

I could be wrong however. I'm no recording expert. My guess is that the term is no longer accurate technically when applied to multi-track recording but people still use it since it is such a commonly known term. It's kind of like how we still call the extra tracks on singles "b-sides" even though CDs have all the tracks on one side.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 28 2000, 15:30

I think the answer is probably that, in fact, these techniques can all come under the term 'overdubbing'.

Tom Newman does actually refer to the technique of disabling the erase heads of a recorder in one interview, although he descibed it as crude.

When Les Paul did this type of thing in the 1950s, it was called 'Sound on sound' (where the magazine gets its name from wink)

I think the term overdubbing is used in relation to adding audio tracks to video as well, although that's not really an area I know much about.
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Jammer Offline




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Posted: July 29 2000, 18:32

What is the cheapest multitracking software you can get? I think Cool Edit Pro did this with two tracks, but that costed a lot (name me something related to music and computers which doesn't)

I've tried putting masking tape over the erase head. All it did was stop the erasing of the previous recording when you record something new on to it, but you couldn't hear the previous recording. All I could do was just keep layering on recordings so that they all played at once. By the third recording, the first recording starts to fade so much that you can't really hear it

I know that you can get really up-market digital multitrack recorders but they cost the earth. Yamaha do a Minidisc multitracker (MD8S)
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 29 2000, 22:33

There have been some magazines in the UK giving away Cubasis AV free on their cover CDs (full version, not a demo). You could see if you could get hold of one of those - you'd probably have to get it as a back issue now. The magazines I saw with it were Guitarist and Computer Music (both Future publishing). I think Cubasis AV can be bought for about £50. There are loads of others, though...have a look in a magazine like Computer Music if you're interested in recording software. There are other magazines like Sound on Sound and Future music to look at for things more on recording in general.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 29 2000, 23:51

Just something interesting I found while I was browsing through the interviews section of TW. This is from an interview with Tom Newman.

Some sources suggest that 'Tubular Bells' required 10,000 overdubs, others say 2,500 and yet others say far fewer than that. Which one's
correct? (Gareth Randall)

We did it on 16 tracks and it depends on how you define 'overdub', because anything on a multitrack tape recorder, strictly speaking, is an overdub and if
you count the number of times you 'drop-in' because you've done it wrong ..... The way it was constructed was with the kind of riffy bit played live on a
glockenspiel, then on a Farfisa organ and then guitar bits put on it - to go through 15 mins worth was impossible to do in one go. So we did drop in and
out of that to get it right all the way through. There was no instance that I recall when something went down the first time and that was that. Just arriving at
the right bit and it sounding right might take 10 or 12 drop-ins. Then you try and get the part all the way through, so for each part there may have been up
to 20 drop-ins, so that's 320. If you add that to the other side, which actually took more drop-ins, because it was slightly more complex when it came to
the drum parts ..... By the time we got mixes the tape was getting fairly worn - 2 inch tape had only just arrived really and it was a lot thinner and less
robust than modern 2 inch tape. I think a copy was done but not till much later - probably when Phil Newell did the remix.... So if you count every single
drop-in we might have done 1000, but that was par for the course for practically any album. That 10,000 overdubs was just bullshit that Richard
(Branson) applied to it at the time to give it more status than the average album.

Just thought that was interesting in relation to what we discussed earlier.
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Posted: Nov. 04 2000, 10:43

For the cheapest multitrack recording software, I say you can't go past ProTools Free for PC or Mac. It allows 8 tracks of audio (and a bunch more of MIDI). Of course you can bounce down if 8 isn't enough (which it isn't after a while).
Did I mention it's free? www.digidesign.com
As for using minidiscs for multitracking, there are 4 and 8 track minidisc units, but they use data minidiscs instead of audio (which are more expensive). But someone wrote something in the 'uses' section of www.minidisc.org about using two MD portables for simple overdubbing.
Yikes, that word again.
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