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Question: Orchestral Incantation :: Total Votes:31 Poll choices Votes Statistics He should do it 15  [48.39%] He should't do it 16  [51.61%] Guests cannot vote

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Sonilink Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: Jan. 2005 Posted: Mar. 25 2005, 17:39 After listening to more than the half of mike's discography, I think that the apropiate piece to play by a orchestra would be Incantation. Orchestral Tubular is also graet record it's more a rock-symphony than an orchastral-symphony... -------------- Take the Time Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Mar. 25 2005, 20:31 That could be a great thing... but also could not be. I mean, Incantations is already pretty symphonic by itself, and the full conversion into a symphony could probably cause the album to lose lots of important features. Of course, if the task is handled well enough, it can gain brand new features and open a whole new dimension of possibilities, so the idea itself is neither good or bad. I just think Mike should be kept away from that. Like I said before, IMO, he should occupy himself with his own new interests rather than start revisiting his whole past! -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Mar. 25 2005, 23:49 Hmm, Incantations does seem suited to being arranged for an orchestra, but my favourite parts of the album are all guitar solos. Without the rocking solos in parts three and four, plus the 'Ode to Cynthia' at the end, I wouldn't enjoy the album anywhere near as much as I do. I don't know how you would arrange those pieces for orchestra, except with a really really good violin soloist or something. -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

EeToN Group: Members Posts: 845 Joined: Sep. 2001 Posted: Mar. 26 2005, 18:16 "No, if things are written for orchestra, that’s fine. But doing orchestral versions of things which were never be supposed to be orchestral just doesn’t work. I didn’t like Orchestral Tubular Bells or any of that stuff, but when I think this is an orchestral thing then that’s fine." -------------- If I were music, I would be Enigmatism. Back to top

Baggiesfaninessex Group: Members Posts: 682 Joined: Mar. 2002 Posted: Mar. 27 2005, 13:04 Quote (EeToN @ Mar. 26 2005, 18:16) "No, if things are written for orchestra, that’s fine. But doing orchestral versions of things which were never be supposed to be orchestral just doesn’t work. I didn’t like Orchestral Tubular Bells or any of that stuff, but when I think this is an orchestral thing then that’s fine." That pretty much sums up my feelings too. -------------- “A dog is not intelligent. Never trust an animal that's surprised by its own farts.” - Frank Skinner Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Mar. 29 2005, 14:02 I know it would not be as good as the original (which, in my view, has perfect instrumentation all the way through). However, I'm always interested in hearing more interpretations of "Incantations", including MIDI files and fan tracks. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Mar. 30 2005, 11:24 I don't really agree with the quote above (is that a quote from Mike?). It's my belief that, in theory, anything can work in music, and it depends mostly in the talent of who's doing it. Orchestral versions of certain pieces can be very difficult, and many of them can fail, but that doesn't mean that they never can be done right. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

EeToN Group: Members Posts: 845 Joined: Sep. 2001 Posted: Mar. 30 2005, 18:04 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Mar. 30 2005, 18:24) is that a quote from Mike? Yes, of course. -------------- If I were music, I would be Enigmatism. Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Mar. 30 2005, 20:20 I think it could be quite interesting, being always up for something Incanted. Mike was so consumed with redoing Tubular Bells perfectly, and it would be interesting to see Incantations brought into the next century, orchestrally or otherwise, though to my cloth ears, it already sounds practically perfect. One reason to even think about this could be to revamp Part II, i.e., Have a Native poet replace the Longfellow amalgamation/stereotyping inherent therein. Douglas Spotted Eagle did something very interesting years ago called "First Contact" (think that's right) in which Hopi chanting and Gregorian chanting played off each other (btw...that's not it playing when the DSE website loads). Maybe something similar could be done with SOH and whatever. -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Mar. 30 2005, 22:14 That's a great idea for improvement, Inkata. Despite my nick name, I think that "Hiawatha" is the weakest part of the album. If he did what you suggested, it would likely be the strongest. However, rather than Hopi, I would rather see it stick to the same geographic area and be true to the traditions of the Ojibwe and their neighbors. It's all a dream anyway. Could someone pursue a fan track like this? Inkata? Anyone? -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Mar. 30 2005, 23:34 Hi Hiawatha, I agree that if there were a new arrangement of Part II containing a Native perspective, since SOH is an amalgamation of an Ojibwe (Anishinaabe/Chippewa) culture hero (Manabohzo) and one of the founders (Aiionwatha) of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee) League, it would be appropriate to have an artist involved from one of those nations--in fact, it would be required. Whether or not it would be possible to find someone respected within their Nation(s) who would do this is another matter. It all gets extremely complicated. Mike actually likes Robbie Robertson, who is Six Nations Mohawk IIR (Aiionwatha was Mohawk/Onondaga--those are two of the six nations of the Haudenosaunee). That would be a good place to start networking. BTW, I used the Hopi/Gregorian chant as an example of how music from two cultures can come together (in this case) as a counterpoint arrangement to illustrate the commonality of two seemingly very different spiritual paths (and that both must be respected). In the case of SOH, I'd like to see an O/I response to this--maybe rapped in a combination of English and Anishinaabemowin or one of the Iroquois languages and somehow keeping within the theme of Incantations and the Moon while we're at it. Hmm.....think I'm actually dreaming....have fallen asleep and my fingers continue to type out words.... -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Mar. 31 2005, 13:02 Manabohzo? I just did some research into the Hiawatha legends, and found his name again. I was also reminded that I really need to read that Hiawatha legends book by Schoolcraft I got last year. Manabohzo's name should fit into verses in the style of SoH, if it is pronounced with the same syllable accents as the name Hiawatha. I've also seen Hiawatha's name as "Hay-o-went-hah". In fact, I've seen it for years but did not know it was a version of Hiawatha. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Mar. 31 2005, 13:41 Henry Schoolcraft and Henry Wadsworth Longfellow were good friends, btw. You'll find many spellings of both names because they varied among nations and the orthographers who attempted to translate oral languages into written ones used different spellings, based on their own languages (primarily French and English).  Manabozho was Ojibwe/Chippewa/Anishinaabe. The native words used in SOH are from the Anishinaabe language, Anishinaabemowin, which is from the Algonquin (going into a trance) family. Aiionwatha is actually an Oneida spelling. Oneida, Seneca, Tuscarora, Onondaga, Erie, Huron, Mohawk, and Cayuga are from the Iroquian language family. One of my anthropology profs (a linguist) once said that the Iroquois and Algonquin language families are as closely related as English is to Chinese, i.e., not very. I'm not sure what the current thinking is, but it's one reason (and actually a minor one)  why it doesn't make sense that Longfellow would have combined a culture hero from the Ojibwe with a guy who helped found one of the longest-lived democracies on the planet (i.e., the Iroquois League of Nations). I have a bunch of stuff on this that I could round up for you, if you're interested, and when my home laptop comes back online a bit more reliably. -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Mar. 31 2005, 15:06 See this map: http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/rehling/nativeAm/ling.html for the languages. The Iriqoian areas are islands in a vast green Algic sea. (I should not have said that, makes me think of algae blooms). "National Geographic" had an excellent poster map of the language groups a few months ago. By all means, bring up this other information! -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Baggiesfaninessex Group: Members Posts: 682 Joined: Mar. 2002 Posted: Mar. 31 2005, 16:57 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Mar. 30 2005, 11:24) I don't really agree with the quote above (is that a quote from Mike?). It's my belief that, in theory, anything can work in music, and it depends mostly in the talent of who's doing it. Orchestral versions of certain pieces can be very difficult, and many of them can fail, but that doesn't mean that they never can be done right. I have yet to hear a sound Orchestral interpretation of a rock song or piece of music written for rock instrumentation. But please let me know of one as I tend to avoid them like the plague having heard a few mostrosities (including The Orchestral Tubular Bells). On the other hand, I have heard some half-decent rock versions of orchestral pieces - a la Emerson Lake and Palmer, The Nice, etc, but these are still not a patch on the original, intended version. It's been done before, so why not release an album of new material as opposed to recycling old stuff? Some may call Orchestral versions of his music interesting, inspired or even exploratory. On the other hand, one could view it lazy or displaying a lack of new ideas and material at best, or even akin to 'flogging a dead horse' at worst. -------------- “A dog is not intelligent. Never trust an animal that's surprised by its own farts.” - Frank Skinner Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Mar. 31 2005, 17:15 Quote (T4 @ Mar. 31 2005, 16:57) It's been done before, so why not release an album of new material as opposed to recycling old stuff? Some may call Orchestral versions of his music interesting, inspired or even exploratory. On the other hand, one could view it lazy or displaying a lack of new ideas and material at best, or even akin to 'flogging a dead horse' at worst. I agree. That's why I think Mike should be kept away from such project, in fact. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Delfín Group: Members Posts: 667 Joined: Nov. 2000 Posted: April 22 2005, 11:30 I think he shouldn't do it because the work is already almost orchestral. I think it would be much more original an orchestral 'Taurus 2' or 'Platinum'. -------------- The most precious thing I possess, is knowing the answer's yes Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: July 27 2005, 17:51 Exposed-Incantations, though it is Incantations-abridged, provides a window into what an orchestral full-length Incantations would probably sound like. I'd still like to see him do something different with part ii, but that wouldn't involve your traditional orchestra. -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

Wayfarer Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: June 2002 Posted: Aug. 31 2005, 15:43 Btw, has anyone here listened the Tubular Bells orchestral version performed in the Tubular Project at Aranjuez (Spain)? A superb version, I think. -- Wayfarer -------------- My homepage - www.thewayfarer.info My search - www.cannotbefound.com My community - www.taurusiv.net My luthier - www.artluthier.com Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Aug. 31 2005, 15:50 Quote (Wayfarer @ Aug. 31 2005, 15:43) Btw, has anyone here listened the Tubular Bells orchestral version performed in the Tubular Project at Aranjuez (Spain)? A superb version, I think. Can you download it from the site? Or listen to it? -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

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