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nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: May 31 2009, 20:24 Quote (wiga @ May 31 2009, 04:20) Nightspore - you know when you categorize Mike's work in terms of pre-Exegesis and post-Exegesis,(before and after therapy) - I was wondering if your dislike of Incantations had something to do then with the mood and emotions that it arouses, as much as anything. When you talk about the moods that appeal to you like - 'transcendental loss' -'soaring' -'haunting' - 'moving', are you grouping these emotions in the post-Exegesis category? Although I pick up on these moods in Incantations, it is also much edgier - sharp, biting, provocative and daring. Is that what you hear to be pre-Exegesis, and does that have something to do with what doesn't appeal. Yes, Wiga - I think you're right. Incantations doesn't create any emotions in me at all - except with the Hiawatha setting, which creates exasperation, as the words and the music seem completely irrelevant to each other (the melody is the same irrespective of what is going on in the poem). I can, however, understand why someone who enjoyed the hypnotic effect of repetitive music might be drawn to it - I actually like the Kronos Quartet's "Waterwheel" for exactly this reason. "Soaring" is certainly one word I'd put in the post-Exegesis category. I think it's  even possible to be precise about the word musically. Take "Celt": you have a repetitive, low-pitched, restrictive melody for the start of the piece: and then along comes that guitar solo with incredible range and diversity. It lifts the piece on to another plane. With Incantations on the other hand,  you don't seem to get that contrast; it's nearly all repetition. Back to top

Jesse Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: Aug. 2007 Posted: June 16 2009, 12:17 I am not a huge fan of incantations either, but I love MOTS. And I do disagree with your view that it does not sound like individual expression. The piano, harp and guitar all have their solo parts.   On Mots, there aren't all that much instruments, and they often play the same melody or a supporing melody line. Often the orchestra will fall quiet and those lovely solo's come back in. The funny thing is that I absolutely didn't like TB on the dvd of exposed because of all the crowded instruments. So in some occasions I do agree with you, just not with mots. My conclusion would be that individual expression is found inside the melodies played, and those are all lovely and feel very personal to me in Mots. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1980 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: June 16 2009, 13:03 Incantations rocks!! A very adolescent reply. I just felt the need to throw in something. AND there was never any "whine" in the recording. -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: June 18 2009, 19:54 The only "problem" with Incantations is that it is waaaayyy too short. Another few hours and it would have been perfect. I'd like to experience the entire Inc played, jammed, over an entire afternoon and evening and see what develops.  Maybe there is something in the playing that would be truly magical...incanted (-: Like a drum circle that builds, morphs, and the dancers that provide additional NRG, but with melody and interaction of instruments besides percussion. Ehhem.  <snaps herself out of it> Guess I should just leave it at, yeah. Incantations really does  rock. <-: -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 18 2009, 19:59 Quote (Inkanta @ June 18 2009, 19:54) The only "problem" with Incantations is that it is waaaayyy too short. Another few hours and it would have been perfect. Go easy on the chocolate, Inkanta! Back to top

Inkanta Group: Admins Posts: 1453 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: June 18 2009, 20:03 Oh....how did you know???? <-; -------------- "No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris." Back to top

HRFanUSA Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: May 2009 Posted: July 15 2009, 21:00 Incantations was such a new Oldfield experience for me the first time I played the LPs, with the lush orchestral sound. I also enjoy repetition if it "feels good" but some parts of Incantations, honestly, get on my nerves - like the way-to-long Hiawatha, IMHO. I'm sorry if that offends anyone here but for the life of me I don't understand what inspired Mike to drag that part out! On the other hand, other parts of Incantations are so utterly incredible that I still get goose bumps when I hear them. I totally respect Mike's musical decisions and after all, nobody forces us to buy his music. Still, considering the entire body of his work, from TB to MOTS, I am very grateful. As a huge lifetime Tangerine Dream FANatic, I don't always like everything they do but I remain loyal anyway - as I have been with Oldfield. Unfortunately, I didn't get the Incantations remaster CD and seeing they are going for over $50 now, I can't wait until this set is rereleased by Universal. Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 16 2009, 09:44 The whole Exegesis thing (pre or post)is totally redundant when talking about Incantations.It's both.He did the therapy while making it!In the words of the bloody annoying meerkat on adverts at the mo "Simples".  Gotta admit thought that the Hiawatha bit is a mite too long. That's really my only criticism of it though.Reading Changling Mike found it a drag to finish once he'd done the therapy but i think he did a damn fine job.Definately up there in the top 5 (and no they are not all from the 70's.Amarok is in there.Lol). -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

HRFanUSA Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: May 2009 Posted: July 16 2009, 11:52 I just pulled out my original (shortened) Incantations CD and listened to it all the way through, after feeling inspired by this thread. Some parts are so incredible, like the "Diana" section, while others still bore me, as they have through the years. Still, as Caveman said, it's a great album though I'd love to hear some thoughtful remixes created with today's technology. On a very very bright note, I have to say when a friend of mine at college went to England to see her family for Christmas, she brought me back the newly released Incantations LP set. It came with a red vinyl bonus 7", containing something I don't remember. The poster was nice and I cut out, (like a fool! the portion of Mike and sent it to Virgin records with a heartfelt fan letter. A few weeks later I received an envelope with my poster picture autographed by Mike, and it also included a piece of paper - "With the compliments of Oldfield Music LTD." Of course I treasure that autograph and figure it was worth cutting the Incantations poster up to obtain. The fact that he took the time to read my letter and actually send me something back still moves me so many years later... Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 16 2009, 11:58 That's wierd mate.Oldfield Music was started in the early 80's.Unless you got it in the early 80's in which case it makes perfect sense.Lol. Red Vinyl 12" though?Never heard of that one.Cool.I have a blue vinyl copy of the Guilty 12" and a white vinyl Take Four ("Virgin wishes you a white vinyl Xmas")but never heard of a red vinyl bonus disk.You jammy bugger.   -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

HRFanUSA Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: May 2009 Posted: July 16 2009, 12:14 Hi Caveman, The red vinyl 7" was a Virgin sampler that didn't contain any Mike Oldifield music. I traded it with a color vinyl collector for the clear vinyl pressing of Tangerine Dream's "Force Majeure" (a great trade I might add! If I could figure out how to post photos on this forum, I'd love to share images of the MO goodies I have, lol... BTW - I had the 12" Guilty blue vinyl and recently gave it to my son who has suddenly taken a sincere interest in records vs CDs. The mix is different than any CD version I've aquired at this point...  Call me a fool, lol. Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 16 2009, 12:19 he only CD i know of with that mix is the Platinum Collection.Well done your son btw.A well brought up boy evidently -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

HRFanUSA Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: May 2009 Posted: July 16 2009, 12:29 Yeah, he begged for my turntable so I gave it to him for Christmas, along with one of my cherished copies of Hergest Ridge, and Complete and Boxed... Like me, he finds pleasure in watching the LP spin while the beautiful music emanates from the speakers... I'll add that he's a brilliant pianist at 19, self-taught, and has loved music since the day he was born, (I played a Kitaro CD, "Tunhaung," as he was born! I couldn't be more proud... Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 17 2009, 06:36 As much as i love my daughters i don't allow them to so much as touch my record player.They are a little younger than your's though.I seem to remember Ommadawn being on at some point during my eldest's birth but it got a bit frantic at the end so if music was playing i don't remember what it was. There is something nice about watching the LP on a turntable.Especially interesting labels such as the original Roger Dean Virgin label.The later 80's one was frankly crap.  Your son sounds very talented.I bought my daughter an electric guitar a few years ago as she said she wanted to learn as she's always loved my guitars.As yet though she hasn't taken much interest but she's nearly 13 and discovered what a social life is so there's time.  BTW back on topic one of my favourite LP labels from the Oldfield catalogue is in fact the Incatations label.I bought an original LP as it was the only one i didn't have on vinyl. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

HRFanUSA Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: May 2009 Posted: July 17 2009, 13:11 Hi Caveman, I also have the orginal Incantations label on my LPs - very nice! Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 20 2009, 09:12 @HRFanUSA.I saw your 1000 Clues post earlier and you had one about the Roger Dean labels.Dunno what you could mean man.Lol.  Listening to Incantations now.Helps to drown the noise out here.Still can't find the problem.Is it a riddle?  Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that Mike may have added strings to bring it in line with other 'prog' works of the time.I've been thinking about this.I'm not sure this is right.He said repeatedly that he didn't really listen to anyone elses stuff and i doubt very much that he was listening that closely to the rest of the prog crowd.Indeed i very much doubt that he even considered himself to have anything to do with prog.It's other people that have labelled him as prog rock.  The difference between Mike's stuff using orchestra and most of the stuff i've heard from the prog bands doing the same is that it sounds natural to have the strings and everything there mixed in with the conventional rock instruments and not forced in a 'kitchen sink' or overly pompous way which is a critisism that could levelled at a lot of other acts (ELP for example).The strings on Incantations sound like they were added because that's the sound that was needed to  be there to best get the music across. Also 1978 is a bit late for him to be thinking like that.Punk had been and gone and done it's work and very few people wanted to be labelled prog.Even Virgin had gone punk and were distancing themselves from their own past as fast as possible. I really think Mike would have run a mile at being associated with prog rock in 1975 let alone 1978.Much like he does now with the New Age tag. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: July 20 2009, 09:39 Quote (The Caveman @ July 20 2009, 09:12)  The difference between Mike's stuff using orchestra and most of the stuff i've heard from the prog bands doing the same is that it sounds natural to have the strings and everything there mixed in with the conventional rock instruments and not forced in a 'kitchen sink' or overly pompous way which is a critisism that could levelled at a lot of other acts (ELP for example). It shows how subjective all this is. To me, the orchestration sounds forced and awkward, like a crowd imposing its presence on MO's private and solitary meditations. As for ELP. they didn't really use the orchestra very much, except on the Works Volume 1 album. It would have been very difficult for Keith Emerson to have a piano concerto without one! It doesn't sound particularly "pompous" to me, although that word tends to be one that people use simply because others have. If "pompous" is taken to be the adjective corresponding to "pomp" - in other words, some kind of ceremony - then, so what? Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance automatically becomes pompous, without any noticeable damage done to his reputation. Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 20 2009, 11:00 Well yeah it's all subjective isn't it.Perhaps ELP was not the best example.And perhaps i should have said IMO.I think we'll have to agree to disagree as to wether the orchestration sounds forced.I like it and think it works and you don't but you don't like any of his work in the 70's for much the same reasons.Both arguements are valid.As for imposing on MO's private and solitary meditations.Er,he wrote it.No-one forced him to use orchestra so how can it be 'imposing' on anything?If it were an "RSO Plays Mike Oldfield" record then yes i'd agree but since from the ground up it was meant to sound that way it can hardly be imposing on his inner thoughts and meditations can it? In refernce to your definaition of Pompous i meant as in pretentious or arrogant. And to be perfectly honest i was refering to the suggstion (not by yourself i believe)that Mike used orchestration to try and sound more prog. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

wiga Group: Members Posts: 2113 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: July 20 2009, 11:25 For me the best pop/rock music is supported by string arrangements. Infact I might start a new thread on the subject, it's got me going - I've found my voice. Strings create BRILLIANT substance; - vibrancy and soaring emotion, as in Bowie's, "Space Oddity" - or the regal (pompous) in ELO, "Turned to Stone" - or drama, Cold Play's "Viva La Vida"..... The strings in Incantatations;  yes, they could be described as manic and 'urgent' in places - they are keeping pace with the xylophones, giving that vital support and solidarity. Edit to say - Not forgetting btw that Incantations is still way - way out of the league any 'good' pop song (that incorporates strings), in terms of composition. -------------- Barn's burnt down - now I can see the moon. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1980 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: July 20 2009, 12:59 I do remember one thing circa 1981. I thought my Incantations double LP I bought in 1978 sounded a little dull and lifeless, so I always hit the loudness(treble and bass boost button) on my reciever as well as tweeked the treble. Skip to a cupla years years later. I meet a guy who had a pretty decent studio for 1981. Including some great FX of the time, a multitrack, analog delay, synths, I forget what all he had 28 years ago. One day, I brought over my 2 LP Incantations and a HQ blank cassette. He washed it thru(at that time it was a mystery to a 20YO Jim) probably an equalizer and added reverb. I sat for over an hour in bliss as it took on new life and recorded onto a cassette. We did have a talk about orchestration(probably many in the 5 or 6 years I knew him). Incantations was on example, but we also talked of Hayward/Lodge's "Bluejays" album among others. It was typical to hire a string trio or quartet. Pay them union scale to play on these recordings. The parts could be overdubbed, plus my friend had a Crumar Orchestrator synth(sounded pretty amazing even then, I played with it a lot).......so between the hired trio or quartet, strings would be augmented with a Crumar or similar keyboard. I think this was the case with Incantations. It sure did not sound like a full orchestra, but it was damn good! A cute story from my past. I enjoyed those days, by '87 I was buying my own studio gear. In 1981 I had one thing I wish I never parted with, a Moog Prodigy. It was mono-timbral but could make some awesome ELP, Wakeman sounds. Be cool tubes. Jim -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

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