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Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Nov. 16 2005, 15:37 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Nov. 16 2005, 19:24) I don't know what kind of human being he is, so I won't talk about that. This is just an evasion of my point, which is about the basic respect due to any fellow human being, not one in particular. We've been here before Sir M, so I won't labour it. Let's just continue to agree to differ. My comments were sparked off because this was the first review of yours that I've read, invited by an easily clickable link in this case. But it's a good enough warning to me not to read any more of them. Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Nov. 16 2005, 16:03 I suppose a lot of you have heard the story about Nigel Goodrich producing Paul McCartney for his latest album, the guy who managed to get out of Paul what critics have said is his best album in years, by having the guts to turn around and tell Paul that some of his songs were 'crap'. It's got him a lot of attention, it makes a nice soundbite. The bit you might not have heard is that the day he said that, Paul McCartney went home, having totally lost the vibe and therefore unable to give a good performance. A day's studio time lost. Clever. Now, I don't say this entirely in criticism of a confrontational style. In general, by all accounts, Nigel Goodrich's style worked very well for Paul McCartney, and got a good album out of him. I say this because I think that the particular incident where he said Paul's songs were crap got him attention and little else. He could probably have said it in a slightly different way and not lost a day's worth of studio time (which in a commercial studio can work out as more than a little expensive). The thing is though, he got away with it, because he's good. If he didn't have a reputation to back himself up with, he'd probably have blown his career with that comment. Same goes for reviews really, though it seems that anything goes these days. Still, I would say that unless the opinions are backed up by something solid, a suggestion of experience, people are going to start saying "Hang on, why should we listen to this guy, what does he know?". Saying extreme things will attract attention, but they may also attract scrutiny, and neither is the same as respect. The latter may lead to loss of respect, though. Some reviews I have read recently do more to put the reviewer's listening abilities into question than they do to properly expose the weak points in the music being reviewed. Is that a way to get your opinions trusted? Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Nov. 16 2005, 18:23 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Nov. 16 2005, 17:09) Third: well, the rape thing is a delicate point. I never intended to evoke actual rape in the reviews, and I only mentioned that because, seriously, the "vocals" on the song reminded me a lot of those "screams" from oriental cartoons, which really make my skin crawl. I used "bad animé character being raped by tentacles" exactly because it's so absurd and removed from reality, and like you said, my intention wasn't to make humour out of actual rape. "Tentacle rape" is an awfully disgusting thing, but I laugh at it to avoid crying, and I really won't condemn other cultures based on my beliefs I'm pleased to hear that it wasn't your intention to make humour out of rape. I feel that maybe your choice of words led to the misunderstanding. Quote Alan D   Posted on Nov. 16 2005, 18:23 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Nov. 16 2005, 17:09) I always separate the human being from the artist. And don't we all, whether artists or not, feel pretty dreadful whenever we are not treated like human beings? Why should artists be singled out for abuse (particularly in this case an artist who has done so much to deserve respect)? . I  find it  impossible to separate the human being from the artist, as it's the human being who is the artist, who has played the instruments. OK I know L&S also extensively uses computer programmes (as much of the music created in this day and age does).    It doesn't bother me what instruments are used to create the music as long as I gain pleasure from listening to it  .  Sir M I know that you strongly dislike L&S, but IMHO is that a  good reason to spit venom at Mike? -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

Tubularman Group: Awaiting Authorisation Posts: 2304 Joined: June 2004 Posted: Nov. 16 2005, 19:04 he he, alot of funny words about the review to Sir Mustapha. Well i understand what you mean man. When we review a album it needs pictures. You know, when you describe a song it needs pictures. And that makes it more funny to, just like what you said Sir Mustapha. I like "Resolutions", but i do know that the voice can be a little "like you said", but thats not my point. My point is how you describe things and you do it very well i think, not that i agree with you review, our meaning must be miles away from each other, but it was good     -------------- Mike Oldfield M i x e s https://soundcloud.com/tubularman Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 12:26 Quote (moonchildhippy @ Nov. 16 2005, 18:23) I  find it  impossible to separate the human being from the artist, as it's the human being who is the artist, who has played the instruments. OK I know L&S also extensively uses computer programmes (as much of the music created in this day and age does).    It doesn't bother me what instruments are used to create the music as long as I gain pleasure from listening to it  .  Sir M I know that you strongly dislike L&S, but IMHO is that a  good reason to spit venom at Mike? Ah, naturally I can't write about the music as if it wasn't written by a person, but what I meant is that I can't review Mike's music based on how he is as a person: firstly because I don't know him, secondly because I'm no judge to say he's a "good" or a "bad" person, and thirdly because being a bastard won't make your music bad, and being a saint won't make your music good. Now, whether I have good reasons or not to spit my venom at him may have multiple answers. But one thing remains: no matter what I say, I still hate 'Resolution', 'Romance', The Millennium Bell and such, and I would just feel like a hypocrite by being "mild" in my reviews. As far as respect from the readers go, I'm afraid I can't do much about it. Like I said before, I won't change my style just to please people. And if someone doesn't like the way I write, or doesn't respect me, it's just that I can't please everyone. There was also a time when I really disliked George Starostin because of the things he said about Rush and Pink Floyd, for example, but I got over it. I accept his opinions as plain opinions, and many times they're quite helpful. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 21:29 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Nov. 17 2005, 17:26) As far as respect from the readers go, I'm afraid I can't do much about it. Like I said before, I won't change my style just to please people. And if someone doesn't like the way I write, or doesn't respect me, it's just that I can't please everyone. You can get your facts straight before you go off on an attention-seeking rant though. A few for you: Quote entirely recorded with FruityLoops studio Mmm, now where did this information come from? What Mike said, perhaps. Don't take his word for it, he's got an agenda when he speaks in public. If you'd done your research and looked in the booklet, you'd have seen he used Logic Audio as well, together with a variety of third party plugins. Quote Mike says he mixed in a bit of his own voice in some of the tracks, but I absolutely can't hear it. I can. What does that say about you? Why should we trust what you say about virtual voices when it seems you can't pick out a real voice in a mix? I'm sure you'll probably answer that Mike should make it more obvious or something like that, but consider the idea that as a reviewer, you should be listening harder. Quote there's 'Sunset'. It's a pleasant, beautiful tune played beautifully, with Mike back on his classical guitar. Yes, well...it's a steelstring, actually. That's quite plain to hear, just it's not listed in the booklet. Again, don't trust the written information (and before you then say "Aah...but what did you say about Logic being listed in the booklet earlier?", I've checked that up elsewhere - he has an Apple keyboard on the music stand of his piano, for example, and keeps a dedicated Logic keyboard on his desktop). Why trust a review where the reviewer can't tell the difference between different instruments? Quote You can do it yourself, in your own home, if you've got FruityLoops: just assemble the most generic rhythm and synth tones from the most generic Ibiza dance tune ever, and play the gorgeous "Romance Anónimo" over it. Well, you have Reason which is just as capable... Anyone can say that anyone can do something. Few people actually seem to do it. Upload your own version of Romance, or I'll discard that statement as being pure hot air. Quote 'Resolution', a melody-less pile of synthesizer and guitar loops Well I can pick out a melody...my remarks about the virtual voices apply here too. Quote I could take the song as moderately fresh, if I hadn't read a review where the writer mentioned the song's similarity to Bruce Springsteen's 'Streets Of Philadelphia'. Do you actually hear a similarity, or is it just because someone told you that? If it needed someone to tell you for you to notice, is the similarity really that great? It seems you like sucking in other people's ideas...I recognise my remark about the voices singing the song titles in your review. Not that you can't do that, just it makes me wonder how much of the rest is original thought (bearing in mind also the examples mentioned above). I actually trusted one of your reviews once, and went out and got Jean Michel Jarre's Oxygene 7 - 13 after having read there's a Theremin playing the melody on Oxygène 10. Turned out it was just a synth...trust in the reviewer lost...do you think I'll be reading any more of your reviews when I want a reliable opinion? Back to top

TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 22:11 Howdy, I haven't even read Sir Mustys review yet, will do in a minute, and I am well aware of how controversial he is, but as a HUGE Mike fan it has NEVER bothered me what other people had to say about him. I even thought the Norwegian review in another thread was 'interesting' even though it had nothing nice to say at all about Mike. I think Tubularman is on the same page as me here, he loves Mikes music and is much more generous in his opinion than I am but doesn't get upset by what other people have to say. The POINT here though is that even though Musty has provided a link here, he has not posted this review on this forum, for obvious reasons. It is written in his own website where his freedom of speech should be unquestionable, and he should be only answerable to the people that he speaks about. I certainly agree about the wailing in Resolution, I think it could have worked really well if done with a real voice but that is just unlistenable. Off to read the review now, I know, I'm backward. However, I do feel it was little rude to take the attention away from Alex' original post as this is his thread (although I am surely guilty of doing this myself so I will say no more). -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

timshen Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: Mar. 2001 Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 22:13 Very good points Korgscrew. I think we need to be very careful when presenting our opinions of any album and make a clear distinction between "review" and "opinion". Sir Mustapha has obviosuly presented his own "opinion" but brought it forth as a "review" and that's what has caused all the backlash. As far as I see a good review is objective, well researched and is devoid as much as possible from personal biases. Of course it it still a form of "opinion" but one for wider public consumption. We can respect your personal opinions Sir Mustapha, but when they come across in such a strong way, presented in such a "review" like form, then the line is crossed and you get such a backlash as we are seeing here. Please, Sir Mustapha, don't be a Johnny Owl (which I know you're most definitely not) and humbly take what has been said and continue with your opinions in the right vein - I still want to hear them :-) -------------- Expect Great Things. Attempt Great Things. Back to top

TubularBelle Group: Members Posts: 1487 Joined: April 2004 Posted: Nov. 17 2005, 23:12 Well, first of all, I do have to agree with Alan in that it is not so much what Musty says, but the tone that he uses, and I think Tim is correct is stating the difference between a review and an opinion, a review is meant to be objective. But if you read around the agression, it is a positive review. He gave 4 tracks a + and only 2 a x. 1st paragraph - You tell me - who didn't groan when they heard the title 'Light and Shade' for a 2cd 'light' and 'dark' set? He probably would have called it 'Light and Dark' if not for an album of that name already being out at the same time by 'HIM'. 2nd par - I agree. 3rd par - I agree except for the last sentence, I like 'Shade'. 4th par - Heartilly agree about the synth vocals. 5th par - Agree. 6th par - (and surprisingly it doesn't suck) (who would ever guess?)              Childish and unnecessary. 7th par - (brings back a TB like melody just to drive me insane)              Well if you don't even like TB why are you listening at all?              (Romance is atrocious)               Harsh, but certainly the opinion of many. I don't mind it.             The wailing in Resolution - very apt description for someone with no words to describe this. Heartilly agree. 8th par - Ringscape is my favourite too.             Surfing ('seems' to refer to the internet), rather obvous I would have thought, but a song about surfing the ocean might have held more promise. Water is so soothing. 9th par - (The synthetic singing just harms the album. If he doesn't want to work with other human beings better leave his music instrumental then)              HEAR HEAR!!!!!!!!!!              (I think the positive aspects of the album outweigh the bad ones. 11 out of 15.)               Not a bad rating at all. I think the only 'problem' with Mustys writing is that he is more descriptive or passionate when he is being negative than when he is being positive and that then overshadows. -------------- I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day! Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Nov. 18 2005, 12:32 Quote (Korgscrew @ Nov. 17 2005, 21:29) Quote Mmm, now where did this information come from? What Mike said, perhaps. Don't take his word for it, he's got an agenda when he speaks in public. If you'd done your research and looked in the booklet, you'd have seen he used Logic Audio as well, together with a variety of third party plugins. I didn't mention the use of FruityLoops Studio because it was a really important factoid, but there was so much talk and promotion about his use of the software, I thought it had to be said. Doesn't mean the info is incorrect, though. Quote Well, you have Reason which is just as capable... Anyone can say that anyone can do something. Few people actually seem to do it. Upload your own version of Romance, or I'll discard that statement as being pure hot air. Mark Prindle once said that if you rearrange the letters in "Miles Davis", you get "Saliva Demon". Would you take his words that seriously, too? Quote Do you actually hear a similarity, or is it just because someone told you that? Yep, I do. The synth chords were always quite familar to me - I just didn't pinpoint the source until I read the review, that's all. There are some obvious similarities that I take ages to realise, just because the two songs aren't fresh in my mind at the time. I do quote other sources a few times, but I try to keep my reviews as original as possible. As for the factual errors, well: there was a time when I would devour as much info as possible about the bands I liked because there were few bands and I had time to do that. Nowadays, it's harder to keep track of things, so mistakes are prone to happen. That's why I accept comments, anyway! I've been corrected many times before, and I humbly apologised and corrected myself: I even keep those corrections on the site, even after rewriting the reviews more than once. The Theremin bit on Oxygene 7-13, in fact, I took from a comment a reader sent me. And since he had much more insight on the album than I did, I thought it was correct. And no, I still don't hear Mike's voice in the album - and I ONLY said that in the review because, if I said it was entirely sung by virtual vocalists, someone would have thrown that in my face (you, in that case - I don't mean to be snide). Mike's voice being there or not doesn't make the virtual vocalists' presence any less relevant. The incorrect info and mistakes will be corrected when I have time. And I'm sorry about going on an "attention-seeking rant", but that always happens when I have my words deconstructed out of context until they're sore. There's no need to agree with me - it's just that when only the bits you disagree with matter, it's like everything else is of no value. I never intended to be like All Music Guide, my website is a purely personal page, and I didn't intend anyone to take it objectively. I posted my review here, expecting more people would post theirs too. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

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