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chromemax Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Sep. 08 2008, 10:54 hi all. i'm new here. this is my first post. i wanted badly to create an account on this forum because i have a question that has been tormenting me for some time. anyone around here ever played Star Wars – Knights Of The Old Republic 2 ? (KOTOR2) i’m asking this because there are 2 songs in particular that interest me the most: Harbinger and Prophecy 1) Harbinger........if you listen from 2:35 you may notice there’s a specific star wars theme there. and something else. there’s a ship in KOTOR2 with the name of Harbinger. if you’ve played the game or watched the movies, you’ll notice the theme right away. i won’t get into details here given the fact that most of the people these days watched star wars 2) Prophecy..........if you listen from the beginning to about 1:03, some of you might see a certain similarity between this portion of the song and the soundtrack from KOTOR2 called „The Jedi” or „The Ruins Of The Jedi Enclave” (they are the same, except for the title. both of them are present in the game’s jukebox in the main menu). The song is on youtube as well...............here’s the link >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJlNO0GxeFw the thing is i couldn’t find a connection relating these songs and i turned google upside down. i searched on this forum as well and didn’t find what i was looking for. maybe i hadn't done it right, but i didn’t find any topics regarding this subject. if it already exists, i’d appreciate if someone would point me to the right direction. i know that the album is supposed to be based on the celestial concept and all. so is star wars if you look at it from a certain point of view. but i really can’t understand why mike oldfield chose KOTOR2.................because it’s clear as day that portions of these songs are from the game............the question is............why? Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Sep. 08 2008, 12:30 I think its more likely that its just a form of random coincidence, if there is any similarity. Music isn't infinite; and there are only so many ways certain themes can be explored musically to achieve similar effects. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

chromemax Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Sep. 08 2008, 16:19 i can't really agree with that. think of the many instruments and the many musical notes which can be combined in so many different ways (mike oldfield is a living proof of that)................if you think about it thoroughly it really DOES sound infinite by the way please forgive me if i am asking, but have you played the game? it's more than just coincidence we're talking about here... and mike oldfield isn't your average "random" instrumentalist if you wish to call it like that not to mention that a whole orchestra was required to do the soundtracks in star wars and there are two songs which have a similar style. such a style comes from two parts: an orchestra and a great instrumentalist (what i mean is that the talent both these parts represent can't produce such a concidence) Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Sep. 09 2008, 04:38 If you dont want to agree with that, thats your choice. I haven't played the game, but I'm fairly sure that if there were any officially recognized connections between MO and any starwars venture, it would have been talked about here already. A whole orchestra is required for many different songs (i.e. half of music before 1900)... Stylistic similarity doesn't mean there is an intentional connection. IMHO you are grasping at straws, seeing a connection because you want there to be one. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Sep. 09 2008, 09:01 Finding similarities is merely a question of looking for them; it ain't hard. Besides, wouldn't it perhaps be more constructive to try to see if Music of the Spheres and the Star Wars game soundtrack have similar influences and backgrounds? Certainly Mike doesn't pull music out of nowhere - everyone has a source of inspiration of some kind, and whatever influences you have, you inevitably share them with someone else. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

chromemax Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Sep. 09 2008, 17:07 fair enough. on the other hand there are people who either heard of mike oldfield or either played kotor2..............it seems that there aren't many people who have done them both... that's the kind of people i was hoping to get an answer from. the only reason why such a thing wasn't brought to light is because such individuals don't seem to exist here (or haven't read the topic)........ (also the album is rather new)...oh well... however i must ask you not to misjudge me... i'm not looking for a connection (just as i stated in my first post)..........because the connection exists... i want to know the reason don't think that i'm making this up. especially if you're saying you didn't play the game... oh and another thing... when i said about the orchestra, i think i didn't make myself clear enough. i didn't show up the reason why they used it.............but the talent it represents. that UNIQUE talent specific to every orchestra that's why i'm saying such a connection should exist... you can't be "fairly sure" about this. weird as it may sound, mike oldfield isn't as known as it seems, or as he should be (that's the sadest part). of all the people i know, there are only a handful who really know who mike is so think about it thoroughly... Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Sep. 10 2008, 18:15 right, lets have some fun! Quote it seems that there aren't many people who have done them both... Your gonna have better luck going to the kotor2 forum and asking who's heard MOTS. Quote however i must ask you not to misjudge me... I'm not misjudging you. 2 people have responded in the same manner to the way you have presented your posts. From what you are saying, you can see a connection between the two. What I am saying, and have said to you, is that such a direct between these two separate pieces of artwork is really intentionally unlikely. Thats what Sir M has said. Whether or not the connection really exists, you will have to provide evidence for your claims here to be taken seriously. Bring in a quote from one of Mike's management team or from the development team of the game. Get one of them to specifically quote the other. Then I will believe you. I'll say what Sir M said another way. Its possible for more than 1 composer to draw from the same musical themes. Just because they sound the same, doesn't mean they are related... they just sound the same. Quote don't think that i'm making this up. You have no supportive evidence to back up your claim. and before you ask, no i am not going to go and play the game just so I can hear what you are talking about. Refer to my first point. Quote you can't be "fairly sure" about this. watch me. Quote so think about it thoroughly... I have, and unfortunately all your doing is demonstrating that you have a really clear idea in your head of what you want to be there. Provide us with evidence and we'll take your claim seriously. If you want to believe there is a connection, that is your choice. If you want to tell us categorically that there is a connection, provide evidence. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Sep. 11 2008, 00:23 First off, Chromemax, welcome to the forum. The question of whether there are similarities between pieces of music has arisen before, although usually I'm the one who challenges Sir M to prove things! Is there any way you can provide us with snippets of the music you're talking about so that we can make a more informed judgment? If you want to send an mp3 or whatever to me, I'd be happy to hear from you - just message me privately. Back to top

chromemax Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Sep. 11 2008, 10:23 you want evidence? i provided evidence in MY FIRST TOPIC (that's the only evidence anyone could've found) or do you have a sick pleasure in being plain rude to me? because that's what you're doing 1) i told you that i can't find anything on google or other wbsites so it's phisically impossible for me to produce a quote from the management team since there isn't any. unless i have a professional team of spies, i can't bring mike oldfield halfway around europe into my own house and just simply ask him. snap yourself to reality and think clearly my good man. that "quote" you are asking for doesn't exist (yes i searched. i searched A LOT. i decided to come to this forum because there isn't any other place to go. and i am beginning to regret coming here. of all the users here YOU were the first one to talk to me like you are some kind of god. instead of giving me GOOD reasons not to believe this "connection" you tell me things specific to a kindergardener: like "random coincidence", "you are grasping at straws" and so on). i was sent a few private messages that warned me about the rudeness of some people here, but i was hoping to have a civilized conversation 2) i asked this question on gaming forums and as i said before, many of the gamers there didn't even heard of mike oldfield, let alone his MOTS album 3) didn't occur to you for even one moment that they sound ALMOST the same not BARELY the same. did you even listen to the songs on the album and the soundtrack on youtube? how can you accept the fact that it's just coincidence? when someone hits you, do you turn the other cheek? i don't know why i have the feeling that you're not the religious type 4) you said "i am not going to go and play the game just so I can hear what you are talking about" now this IS rude. man it's like you're not even trying. if you're not willing to stand up for your case, why do you even argue? 5) (this one is for nightspore) i already assume you own a copy of the MOTS album. and in my first post i provided a link on youtube with the song from kotor. listen to that soundtrack and the two songs from the album. read the post, you might see the resemblance and something else... you are not giving me any counter-evidence either. don't call that "coincidence" thing an evidence. or as you said "watch me". this is NOT counter-evidence. these are statements of the poorest quality. something tells me that you're the kind of person who thinks he can turn stone into gold with nothing at all. to explain my metaphor, you've got to the point where even if mike oldfield would be on a live broadcast and say the connection really exists, you still wouldn't believe Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Sep. 11 2008, 11:51 I dont know quite what you expect... sorry for being rude. Really. Its just when someone comes around making grandiose claims like you have that frankly, are a bit unrealistic, I would like to see some kind of proof. And yes, I am talking about management teams... not hypotheses. Hypotheses are just the ideas of one person... crediting the composer of the KOTOR2 soundtrack is evidence. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Sep. 11 2008, 13:47 Chromemax, I listened to the clip you provided on the first post, and I couldn't hear any apparent connection between it and Music of the Spheres. If anything, the mood of the piece was somewhat reminiscent of Harmonia Mundi, but even still, it's just a superficial resemblance. What called my attention there is the use of a very familiar 4-note descending tune, which I've heard in MANY places - including, if memory serves me right, on the soundtrack of the 1994 PC game Little Big Adventure. What caused the scepticism here is not that people don't like you - but if you search the forum, you'll find previous instances of people finding "similarities". Off the top of my head, I remember discussion regarding a very similar theme used both on Incantations and on The Remembering, from Yes's Tales from Topographic Oceans; and even a similarity between the main theme of Tubular Bells and the piano figure of Tay Zonday's Chocolate Rain!! Also, there's a Stereolab song called Cosmic Contry Noir that has a melody very similar to the one on the Sigur Rós song Gobbledigook. Those are just examples - and things like that happen because, even though music is virtually infinite, there's a very small fragment of it that people consider "pleasant", so a certain degree of recurrence is always bound to happen. And it happens often. What aggravated the discord is the material you picked: the Star Wars game soundtrack follows very closely the cliché formula of Hollywood orchestral soundtrack, and Music of the Spheres sometimes veers close to that path. The chance of coincidences is even higher in that case. All we're left here with is just speculation. There's no way to find a reliable source to either confirm the theory or prove it wrong. We can't even agree if the songs are indeed similar; you AFFIRM the connection is there, but I can't even hear any similarity. Note, I'm not saying it isn't there. It might be, but then it comes again: I've seen similarities before which are purely coincidental, and don't have the slightest trace of connection or plagiarism. Think about it: if Mike were indeed inspired by THAT game's soundtrack, wouldn't he try to make the connection a little more clear and more coherent? Wouldn't it be better to him to say it's in fact there, to avoid being sued by LucasArts for plagiarism? Oldfield readily showed all the sources of inspiration for the tracks on Light + Shade - even the FruityLoops demo tune that spawned Slipstream. Why would he make such an obscure, barely noticeable reference and hide it so well? I'm hoping to hear your answers to that. I don't want to sound like I'm calling you a liar, or like I'm disdaining your arguments. I'm just hoping that you'll provide more conclusive, specific arguments. You say you provided evidence; well, you did, but I personally don't think it's very strong evidence. If LucasArts used that to sue Mike, for example, it'd be a more than hopeless case. "Harbinger" is a rather common word, isn't it? You can find it in hundreds of places. I believe that, if Mike meant to make that connection, it would have been far more obvious: Tubular Bells II's references to Arthur C. Clarke aren't hard to spot. Please, don't get worked up by this issue - life is wonderful, far grander than a mere discord on a Star Wars game soundtrack. I assure you, if we were rude and mean, we'd just laugh you out of the forum without regards. The fact that someone took his time to give you an educated reply only means we care. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 11 2008, 16:22 Didn't look like any "grandiose claim" to me.  The guy was just speculating and he shouldn't have been set upon.  Getting only 2 initial replies doesn't mean others may not have noticed the same thing that he noticed.  How do any of you know MO HASN'T played the game? Jeez. -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

chromemax Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Sep. 11 2008, 17:12 ok so let's be clear. my intention is not to start arguing about these things. and i chose the forum carefully because many communities have people that "laugh at you" if you wish to put it that way. i read some of the topics here and everything looked ok. yes, i admit i didn't read THE WHOLE forum from top to bottom. what really got on my nerves (sorry for the hard expression) is when arron took things lightly, and lectured me instead of giving me solid facts not to believe what i was saying. he just gave me general facts as if this was another walk in the park. that's what i didn't like. you don't do that. i'm not asking him to play the game (it's his choice anyway), but he talked to me as if he was on a higher level than me if you get my point (this i cannot stand especially since i'm on a forum about mike oldfield). not to mention that he sort of told me to drop the case and leave when he said i should go to a kotor2 forum. am i the only one who sees the irony in all this? in a debate (because that what this is) every part brings its share of evidence (sorry if what i brought wasn't enough for you, but it was all i could find). you don't just lecture the other part, or say you don't want to do this or that just for the sake of not doing it. ("i am not going to go and play the game just so I can hear what you are talking about" >>> very familiar huh?) and i am not crediting anyone. i just say that mike might get inspired or got some aproval from lucas arts or something. it's just like the song from Madonna--Hung Up where she uses the background music from Abba--Gimme Gimme Gimme (i hope you're not saying there's no connection here either) and i'm talking mostly about the song Prophecy from the MOTS album. JUST from the point where it begins to 1:03... (use a media editor and cut the song to that point if you think it helps) you can't say there's no similarity especially at that "solo" part. they're almost identical. i doubt it requires a graduation diploma or mozart's fine ear for music to notice that. i'm not talking about the whole MOTS album. just these two songs. especially Prophecy. when i first noticed it i presented the song to some of my friends who played the game and know a thing or two about mike just to make sure i'm not imagining things. and they agreed with me (don't worry they didn't say that just to be polite or anything. as in, if they didn't notice anything, they would've told me). sorry if i overreacted and all. maybe the rotten communities got to my head. especially youtube (for example Polish people who can't speak even the most basic English, the cursing, the conformism and all that stuff). it's just that i was expecting something more. i'm not the stubborn and hard-headed kind of guy, i give you my word for it. guess i expected too much... Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 11 2008, 18:48 @ Chromemax: I've listened to Prophecy and I've listened to the KOTOR 2 song you linked on YouTube. Back to back. Ten times each. And then together. Five more times. Well, as far as I can hear, if there's really a similarity between them, it's in the key(s) and in the general mood. The actual tunes are not "almost identical", at least to my ears. Not even in the "solo" part. Actually, they're quite different. So I'm very sorry not to be able to agree with you neither about the supposed similarity in the tunes, nor about the fact that Mike O. took inspiration from KOTOR 2. On the other hand, I fully agree with the following quote from Sir M.: Quote the Star Wars game soundtrack follows very closely the cliché formula of Hollywood orchestral soundtrack, and Music of the Spheres sometimes veers close to that path. One of my first comments about MotS was that parts of it sounded soundtrackish - which is not necessarily a bad thing, as there are some very, very good soundtracks around, even in Hollywood films. However, now, seeing someone else confirm my very first impression can't do anything but please me. I'm pretty sure that if you pick a random theme from another big-budget movie soundtrack - something like Lord of the Rings, for example, you're very likely to find some similarity with some section of MotS. But that doesn't mean that Mike took inspiration from LotR or Star Wars or anything else. Rather, he took inspiration from the Hollywood movie soundtrack world and put his own stamp on it, so to speak. P.S.: I have absolute pitch, or at least people tell me so. But it doesn't take absolute pitch to trace a supposed similarity between two tunes which is just not there, because the tunes are different. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Sep. 12 2008, 05:42 Quote what really got on my nerves (sorry for the hard expression) is when arron took things lightly, and lectured me instead of giving me solid facts not to believe what i was saying. he just gave me general facts as if this was another walk in the park. that's what i didn't like. you don't do that. i'm not asking him to play the game (it's his choice anyway), but he talked to me as if he was on a higher level than me if you get my point (this i cannot stand especially since i'm on a forum about mike oldfield). not to mention that he sort of told me to drop the case and leave when he said i should go to a kotor2 forum. am i the only one who sees the irony in all this? in a debate (because that what this is) every part brings its share of evidence (sorry if what i brought wasn't enough for you, but it was all i could find). you don't just lecture the other part, or say you don't want to do this or that just for the sake of not doing it. ("i am not going to go and play the game just so I can hear what you are talking about" >>> very familiar huh?) Were not talking about personal opinion. Were not talking about debate. I have defended personal opinion at my own cost here. When you are talking about a link between the two, you are talking about official recognition. Mikes hair is brown naturally. Thats fact. Mike has more than one child. Thats fact. Mike has composed soundtracks. Thats fact. When you make a claim like this, you are trying to get people to see that your claim is fact. There are two possibilities: 1. There is a link, and either the KOTOR2 composer or mikes management team have recognised it. 2. There isnt a link, and like other people have said now, you are finding a link because you want there to be one. Yes I am dismissing your comment right out of hand, because its like saying that all German people have big noses because you went on a visit to Berlin and on a particular train you were in, many people had big noses. You can't make one observation and claim that there must be a link because you personally believe there to be. Thats not scientific. If want to believe there is a link, thats up to you. What you are talking about here is getting other people to recognise that there is also a link. You didnt say "is there a link between the two? I can see a similarity" you said "there is a link, listen to this and see what I mean." Theres a difference. Ugo didnt find one. Sir M didnt find one. I'm sorry if you feel I have reacted badly to you, but I would have reacted just the same to anyone who'd said this. As far as I am concerned, you are making a false claim and that is how I have responded to you. Giving opinion is different to presenting fact. On a board like this, one has to be careful how you present one or the other. Prove me wrong, and I'll apologise and agree with you. Until then, I'll honestly believe you have just gotten too worked up about a similarity you have detected here. Beyond all that, I have to question why this really matters so much to you. Its a piece of music and a game. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

chromemax Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: Sep. 2008 Posted: Sep. 12 2008, 06:20 well it matters because i've known about mike oldfield ever since i was a child. and the game.......well..........how many people these days don't play on computers? (not to mention that it's a star wars game. a very complex one if i might add. the storyline, the soundtracks, the characters, everything). so yeah, if i put it all in a nutshell, it matters to me a lot. also i'm not the kind of person who thinks the earth was created by god in seven days, like it says in the bible. i ask "why?" and "how?" instead of listening to a text from a book that was re-written time and time again maybe i want the connection to exist. just so i can feel better. i refuse to accept the fact that it's just coincidence. there must be something more to this. maybe i'm saying all this because, as i said before, it matters to me. more than you can imagine apparently. i want to know what went through mike's mind when he composed Prophecy. what gave him inspiration, what drove him to make such a beginning to the song. that's the kind of answer i couldn't find anywhere. i'll try the other side one more time (as in, ask kotor2 gamers about Prophecy). if i get an answer that's worth mentioning, i'll post it here. if a hardcore kotor2 gamer can't notice anything, i'll drop the case and never mention about it again. Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: Sep. 12 2008, 07:38 I've stayed well out of this with nothing but a wry smile. I think you'll find that many of us her have been into Oldfield since we were children.I clearly remeber listening to TB when i was about 3 years old......30 years ago. What i find slightly disconcerting is that it matters SO MUCH.We all have things we love doing.I love playing my guitars,i love to read and many other things.BUT there's not one of these things that would cause me to cause a 'debate(call it what you will)' such as this.  I agree that MOTS has a certain soundtrack element to it and on my first hearing i though of LOTR but only because of the mood.If you use an orchesrta it will sound like other tunes.That's the nature of it.But (and i haven't played the game-i don't play any,not because of any prejudice against Star Wars...i love the original trilogy)but if several people here cannot hear a link then surely pushing your argument like this is clearly not going to change there opinion.  Besides which if this kind of thing mattered to the composers Mike could sue so many people for 'ripping off' TB Get out and feel the sunshine mate. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 12 2008, 07:51 Quote (The Caveman @ Sep. 12 2008, 13:38)  I agree that MOTS has a certain soundtrack element to it and on my first hearing i though of LOTR but only because of the mood. Hehehehehehehehehehe... you see?   Also: Quote Besides which if this kind of thing mattered to the composers Mike could sue so many people for 'ripping off' TB Listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYmIKcP7Nbc vs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZULOZVcGDY I've mentioned this hundreds of times here on this board. There is indeed a similarity between these two pieces. But Claudio Simonetti, the composer of the latter, won't ever admit that he took inspiration from Tubular Bells and/or Mike Oldfield. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Sep. 12 2008, 08:16 Quote (chromemax @ Sep. 12 2008, 06:20) i want to know what went through mike's mind when he composed Prophecy. what gave him inspiration, what drove him to make such a beginning to the song. that's the kind of answer i couldn't find anywhere. One thing that could help is, like I suggested earlier, to try to find if both Mike and the composers of the game's soundtracks got their cues from the same composer/piece. Mike has been influenced by Sibelius a lot - and remember that Karl Jenkins was responsible for much of the arrangement in the album, and he certainly has connections with a lot more classical composers than Mike has. I agree now that doing that can be too hard, but it's a more plausible possibility, I believe. If you hear the similarity there, it might as well be, but for different reasons than the ones you initially imagined. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: Sep. 12 2008, 10:07 No offense, Arron, but have you read your own signature lately?       Back to top

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