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Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 06 2005, 04:11 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 05 2005, 22:15) I think we're dragging on a discussion about an extremelly trivial matter. I'm just not willing to use more words to say the exact same things. A good understanding of the relation between the critic and the art being criticised is hardly trivial, I think, and very definitely something we should be discussing if we want to ensure that our criticism signifies anything other than just the making of self-indulgent noises. It was predictable that the Millenium Bell album would raise this issue - but I think at this point it might be better to start a new thread (if I can think of a suitable approach) and let this one get back to its topic. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 06 2005, 12:27 I never spoke as a critic here. I was expressing opinions as a listener, that would obviously be very different from the opinions of other listeners, which is something I find very natural. As a "critic", I already tore that album to bits on my own website - a place where I have some authority. Here, I'm just sharing opinions - which aren't any more valuable or any more relevant than anyone else's opinion. I don't get worked up when people judge "The Songs Of Distant Earth" or "Tubular Bells II" as a masterpiece like it was an universal opinion. I do get intrigued, but I don't blame people for using the wrong words or anything! And secondly: if you read the "5 posts" The Big Bellend mentioned, 3.5 of them were about THE ALBUM. Only 1.5 of them were about what Alan was talking about, which I considered "trivial". I think me mixed things up big time there, and I still don't think his comment added much to the discussion we were having. Not only that, but I never tried to make anyone here look like a clown, much less in a discussion I wasn't involved in to begin with. It makes me even more puzzled at why people get so worked up with what I say. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 06 2005, 12:54 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 06 2005, 17:27) I still don't think his comment added much to the discussion we were having. Indeed Sir M, but I think that's mainly because you ignored almost every one of the points I tried to explain. Well, there's no obligation on you to pay them any attention of course. But I say again - to try to understand the relation between the critic and the art being criticised is essential, rather than trivial, if we're to avoid vacuous waffle. It's a hard thing to tackle, but I can't understand how anyone attempting serious criticism could think otherwise. There's some contradictory nonsense here I think, such as: Quote I never spoke as a critic here. I was expressing opinions as a listener which leaves me rather puzzled at what you think 'criticism' actually is! But as I said - this is a discussion for another thread, when I can stimulate enough brain activity to start one. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 06 2005, 13:34 Isn't a critic supposed to give a clear, unbiased analysis on a piece of art? Isn't it supposed to be respectable journalism instead of personal rants? Well, I'm ranting, not making unbiased analyses. That's what I intended to say in my previous post: I don't want anyone to take my comments as something with journalistic value. If I'm hired by a music magazine as a critic, I'll have to discuss what you're talking about, Alan, but I always saw this form as an almost friendly chat. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

The Big BellEnd Group: Members Posts: 971 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 06 2005, 15:00 A Truce please for the rest of today considering the sad news of Pierre. -------------- I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 06 2005, 15:36 Quote (The Big BellEnd @ May 06 2005, 20:00) A Truce please for the rest of today considering the sad news of Pierre. Well, ranting isn't something I know how to argue with. So a truce completely, I think, Big BellEnd. I'm done. (Buys Sir M a pint to prove it's a friendly forum.) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 06 2005, 16:51 Thank thee! *sip* Wait... I hope you're having me on, or is there someone here who thinks we're really arguing? -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: May 07 2005, 00:09 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 06 2005, 21:51) is there someone here who thinks we're really arguing? Do you want the considerate, sensibly forum-orientated answer, or the unbridled rant? Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 07 2005, 04:07 Quote (Korgscrew @ May 07 2005, 05:09) Do you want the considerate, sensibly forum-orientated answer, or the unbridled rant? In the interests of harmony, I'd say compromise is called for, Korgscrew. Can we have the considerate, sensibly forum-orientated unbridled rant? So are we settled then? The final verdict on Millenium Bell is that it's utterly and consistently appalling but with many wonderful inspiring moments in which it rises to the heights of being quite nice really, in an unforgivably arrogant and bland kind of way. Does that clear a few things up? Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: May 07 2005, 11:45 Quote (Alan D @ May 07 2005, 09:07) Can we have the considerate, sensibly forum-orientated unbridled rant? Heh, well...let's put it like this: Unbridled rants aren't really terribly good news as far as harmony is concerned, or credibility, come to mention it. Everyone likes to have one now and then, but when they come out all the time, people get a bit fed up, and more and more wound up by the whole thing...or at least, that's how it always seems from my point of view. It's hard to step back and hold back, I know - I've got quite heated up myself recently, sometimes perhaps inappropriately, and I've found myself seriously considering my position here more than once...but that's another story... What's important here is, it would be nice if we could learn to read each other a little better, for harmony's sake. There are actually loads of sub issues that I'll brush over for the moment - suffice to say, we're currently looking closely at how the site is being used, what people want from it and so on, in an effort to gear things better towards the users (and indeed, those running the site)...everyone comes expecting different things, and one person's lighthearted rant might be another's disturbance of the peace. So, chill pills all round - maybe we can try and be just a little less intense and have an easier time all round. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 07 2005, 13:28 I'm not altogether sure how these discussions appear to someone else. I think if Sir M and I were thrashing this out in a pub there would be raised voices at times, but I don't think either of us would reach the point of emptying his pint over the other's head (well, not all of it, anyway). And whatever happened during the heat of debate, I think we'd still leave the pub laughing together (each of us perfectly certain that the other is wrong of course). As for intensity - it's the nature of art to generate an intense response, so I guess that's always a risk when opinions are divided about it. But if you think we cross the line, Korgscrew, you do right to wave a finger. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 07 2005, 13:30 I get intense when people over the Internet start talking about me, personally, and the things I say and the way I supposedly think. But I was never angry at anyone in this forum, at any point, no matter how my posts may read to different people. You guys haven't seen me angry, yet, and I hope you never do. And if I do get angry at someone, I'll make it very clear instead of direct ironic, sideways insults. I mean, I don't want anyone here trying to read my posts inbetween the lines or scanning for some sort of sentiment when there isn't any. For me, talking about music and talking about people (be it fans or Mike himself) are two different things. Whenever I talk about music here, be I fawning and drooling or flaming and bashing, it's always in a lighthearted way. I don't take music seriously here because, hey, this is not the All Music Guide. I said in other forum, repeatedly, that music for me is fun, and talking about music is fun too. If any post is directed towards me, personally, I will take it seriously, though. But I'm hard to annoy, especially over the Internet. I don't fight with people just because they have different opinions - I despise that attitude. ... Would it be nice if I put an abridged version of the above post in my sig, to avoid future confusion? -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

The Big BellEnd Group: Members Posts: 971 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 07 2005, 14:52 Anyway, concerning this site,,, let me tell all, like most of us I do use other Arteest's fan sites, one in particular allows all kind's of foul language and let me tell you it is as ignorant as hell, brutal and tedious at the same time, basicaly having an anything goes approach kill's off any chance of a discussion, debate, opinion or normal conversation, even the most basic of dignity's are lost under a carpet of filth, an unhealthy urge to join in sometimes waft's over a person , but you know once the plunge is taken your'e like one of them, existing in a world that communicate's in grunt's, for my part at least I managed to abstain. This site in comparison is like a tea party, at worse like the mad hatter's tea party, a good laugh and certainly one of the most civilised places I inhabit, heated some times bit always  light hearted enough that people are still talking after the fisticuff's, believe me I've seen the other side of fan sites and it stink's, this place is like a comfort zone next to them. -------------- I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 07 2005, 15:35 Quote (Korgscrew @ May 07 2005, 16:45) we're currently looking closely at how the site is being used, what people want from it and so on Oddly enough, just a few days ago I was discussing with María about the strange fact that there seems to be no place for (relatively) serious discussion of Mike Oldfield's art, except this forum. For example, there are several excellent magazines devoted to Bob Dylan, to which I've often contributed articles. But there's no equivalent for Mike - except here. I'm all for the lighthearted approach generally speaking, and I revel in some of the knockabout nonsense that goes on here. But it's also true that at the heart of my Oldfield enthusiasm there's an important part of me that's looking for a more serious mode of expression. I think Mike is a truly great artist, and I want to be able to try to explore that idea at a level that his artistic status deserves. It seems that the intensity of the debate in this thread arose because Sir M and I had different (unstated) agendas. I wanted serious and penetrative discussion; he wanted to rant. So here's an idea: maybe unworkable; I don't know. How about a 'Critics' Corner', where it's understood that the debate is serious? I don't mean humourless, please note. Heaven forbid. No, I mean that posts in the Critics' Corner would be understood to be genuinely thoughtful attempts to look at some of the aesthetically significant issues of Mike's art (as are the articles and discussions, for example, in a Dylan magazine like Judas! ). It might even provide an outlet for the kind of short articles I was discussing with María, if people wanted to write them and invite comment. It would need some kind of editorial supervision/moderation if it were to work - and it may be that there'd be no demand for it (apart from me! ) and so it might just prove to be a useless appendage. But I thought I'd mention it. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: May 07 2005, 17:13 Maybe creating a separate, "special" section of the forum for that kind of discussion wouldn't generate the right results. You know, that kind of feeling of "I want to contribute, but what the hell am I going to choose to talk about?" You probably don't, but I do. Instead, you could just create common everyday threads and just specify what kind of discussion you're expecting. If you state you want serious discussion and analysis and not just a place to share personal opinions, it would work perfectly. I know I wouldn't go around posting my day-to-day "opinions" on threads dedicated to that, and I'd be happy to collaborate as much as my limitations allow. I can be really unbiased when I want to, you know! -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 07 2005, 18:21 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 07 2005, 22:13) Maybe creating a separate, "special" section of the forum for that kind of discussion wouldn't generate the right results. You know, that kind of feeling of "I want to contribute, but what the hell am I going to choose to talk about?" You probably don't, but I do. What I have in mind would be a very slowly growing section, probably. So although on Monday you might feel reticent to open up, by Friday you might be thawing out. Having threads scattered about all carrying different kinds of weighting would be confusing in itself I think. Anyway - maybe it's a dud idea. I just think Mike deserves a platform for serious, considered discussion and there isn't one. This would be one possible way of introducing something. Maybe it couldn't sustain itself. The Dylan mags sustain themselves because there's a substantial body of serious writers with useful things to say about his art - but maybe that's not the case for Mike? Concerning the issue of what to write about: for me that usually solves itself. I've never sat down and thought 'what do I write about?'. Usually what happens is that an idea starts up and kicks around until eventually I just have to write it down. I don't know how it works for other people. Hmmm ... I should've started a new thread for this, shouldn't I? Korgscrew - do you want to perform a little thread surgery, or are we OK? Back to top

Ratty Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: Jan. 2005 Posted: May 07 2005, 19:48 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ May 05 2005, 00:26) Quote (Ratty @ May 04 2005, 18:48) What is it that you find vomit inducing about "sunlight"? the content, vocals, production?? "Amay... zing... Grace... ... How sweet... ... that sound... ..." *gunshot* Add that to the endless loop of African voices, the OH SO HIP electronic beats, the OH SO RELIGIOUS gospel choir at the end, complete with handclaps, and you have it: Worst Oldfield Track Ever. If the rap version is worse than that, I'd pay not to hear it. Hey Sir M, as my post seemed to start the latest round of discussion, i`ll reply now. I took your point but you really do need to understand the history surrounding "Amazing Grace" It was written by John Newton in 1774 after he had suffered intolerable abuse at the hands of merchant seamen because of his opposition to the slave trade. He finally became a ship captain and vowed that the slaves under his care would be treated humanely. The african chants and the lyrics you MOCK were a symbol of hope for the slaves on Newtons ships, the gospel choirs represent Newtons new found faith. The lyrics he penned were also based on the optimism shown by the slaves. Sir M, there is history behind this song...it isnt a throw away tune Mike penned himself. He has used Africana influences for a reason. You may well be a critic, but you are young and need to brush up on your history and think before you write. -------------- Far away across the field The tolling of the iron bell Calls the faithful to their knees To hear the softly spoken magic spells Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 08 2005, 05:11 Quote (Ratty @ May 08 2005, 00:48) "Amazing Grace" ... was written by John Newton in 1774 after he had suffered intolerable abuse at the hands of merchant seamen because of his opposition to the slave trade. He finally became a ship captain and vowed that the slaves under his care would be treated humanely. The african chants and the lyrics you MOCK were a symbol of hope for the slaves on Newtons ships, the gospel choirs represent Newtons new found faith. The lyrics he penned were also based on the optimism shown by the slaves. Sir M, there is history behind this song...it isnt a throw away tune Mike penned himself. He has used Africana influences for a reason. This excellent post of Ratty's emphasises the need for a section on this board where this kind of valuable critical comment can be permanently and easily accessible, and thoughtfully discussed, rather than buried deep in the bowels of a hotchpotch of posts and threads. Thanks for this, Pete. I've always found this section of Millenium Bell very moving, myself, and although I knew vaguely about the slave-related origins of the song, I knew nothing of this detail you've given us here. Back to top

The Big BellEnd Group: Members Posts: 971 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: May 08 2005, 06:56 I'd like to think you're idea would work Alan, but I can't help but think like after a great reply like Ratty's, someone could lay down an equally thought provoking thread to be met with a one word response or worse a stupid reply, you know,  try and make it , if you like more sober, may bring out the negative in people. -------------- I, ON THE OTHER HAND. AM A VICTIM OF YOUR CARNIVOUROUS LUNAR ACTIVITY. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: May 08 2005, 07:14 Quote (The Big BellEnd @ May 08 2005, 11:56) I'd like to think you're idea would work Alan, but I can't help but think like after a great reply like Ratty's, someone could lay down an equally thought provoking thread to be met with a one word response or worse a stupid reply, you know,  try and make it , if you like more sober, may bring out the negative in people. I think that's where the moderation would come in - rather like the editorship of a magazine? Daft posts could be edited out before they reached the board, or afterwards. But I know it would be difficult to make it work. Back to top

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