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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: Dec. 26 2004, 18:50

A lot of group's and artists also had the Fairlight phase as well, a truly sad time for music lover's.

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TwyliteMagick
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Posted: Dec. 27 2004, 16:56

Quote (DanishDonJuan @ Dec. 23 2004, 06:49)
I have read Western, Raggae, Swing, Heavy Metal, Classical, Irish Folk, Dance, Techno, Rock'n'roll, Pop, Jazz....
Has anyone mentioned, Progressive Rock,

I definatly agree that Mike's music is very Prog, especially TB, HR and Ommadawn, the more early stuff and is still quite experimental.
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TwyliteMagick Offline




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Posted: Dec. 28 2004, 14:02

Quote (TubularBelle @ Dec. 23 2004, 00:13)
Well he certainly went dancy while living in Ibiza which has a huge dance culture but I think he has steered away from that again now since moving away.

Tres Lunas is full of synth. Am I too old fashioned (age 16) or is there something wrong with REAL instuments?

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"Whatever happened to the teenage dream?" It shrivelled and burned in the flames of reality, to become the fuel that destroys the next generation.

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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: Dec. 28 2004, 14:08

Quote (TwyliteMagick @ Dec. 28 2004, 14:02)
[quote=TubularBelle,Dec. 23 2004, 00:13]Tres Lunas is full of synth. Am I too old fashioned (age 16) or is there something wrong with REAL instuments?

What is a "real instrument" ?

Does a pipe organ count? It's basically a synthesizer using technology hundreds of years old.


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Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
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TwyliteMagick Offline




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Posted: Dec. 28 2004, 14:12

Sorry, perhaps I should say, a "traditional" instrument then? Instruments that produce a sound that is "real" in that it has not been copied by computer or synthesized? The original source of the sound required where possible?

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"Whatever happened to the teenage dream?" It shrivelled and burned in the flames of reality, to become the fuel that destroys the next generation.

Still, no worries, eh?
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Holger Offline




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Posted: Dec. 28 2004, 16:24

We've been through this discussion many times on this board. Nothing will convince me that a synthesizer or sampler is not a "real" instrument. It makes a controllable sound, so it's an instrument. And it can make lovely, warm, organic sounds as well as harsh, cold, machine-like ones.

Whether using samplers to replace traditional instruments is a good idea is another question altogether.
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TwyliteMagick Offline




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Posted: Dec. 28 2004, 16:28

Valid point. Sorry to have brought it up again.

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"Whatever happened to the teenage dream?" It shrivelled and burned in the flames of reality, to become the fuel that destroys the next generation.

Still, no worries, eh?
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: Dec. 28 2004, 20:47

For a perfect example of how synthesizers and keyboards can be warm, organic, emotive etc just listen to Jeff Wayne's 'War of the Worlds' album. This is one of my all time favourite albums, with some of the best keyboard work i've ever heard. While I agree that it's always nice to have the instrument itself rather than an electronic approximation, synths are an instrument just like any other, and when used properly are just as musical as anything else out there.

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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Dec. 29 2004, 02:08

It's funny how Mike always complained about the newer musicians not being able to play 'real' instruments, and now he is just as into technology as they are. As you said, it's all music, just different types. But I still believe it takes more talent to be able to play a traditional instrument.

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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Dec. 29 2004, 13:26

Quote (TubularBelle @ Dec. 29 2004, 07:08)
I still believe it takes more talent to be able to play a traditional instrument.

This ought to put a cat amongst the pigeons :D

I suppose this can be approached from a number of levels. If we take an electronic instrument, like a synthesiser (but could equally be an electronic organ, theremin, trautonium or anything else with electronic sound generators), we can see that its sound is coming from an electronic oscillator. No matter who is playing the instrument, that oscillator will create the same sound - even someone with no musical training can get it to make a sound, and more importantly, the same sound as when a skilled musician plays it.
Compare that to something like the violin, saxophone, guitar (especially electric), or any number of other instruments, where it can take years of learning before the player can get a really pleasing tone from the instrument (and yes, much of the tone of an electric guitar comes from the player - I'd say that distorted electric sounds are particularly unforgiving to players with the wrong touch). So, real instruments are harder to play, and the electronic ones are cheating because they're making the sound for you, right?
Well, we could say that, but then we'd look a bit silly when someone shows us a piano, which also takes care of making the sound. Even a cat can get a good tone from a piano - I've heard them do it (I've also heard them do quite a convincing Axl Rose impersonation, but that's another matter...). The issue is therefore rather more complex than it might at first appear.

I can't say that playing a synthesiser is any easier than playing the piano - the technique's fairly much the same. Of course, with the synthesiser comes the possibility of using its controls to expand its capabilities. You can play a lead line just as you'd play a melody on a piano, but it might not always sound as interesting as it could do...playing it with careful use of the pitch bend and modulation controls starts to make things more exciting, as would taking advantage of things like aftertouch, if on offer. Even more interesting is working with the instrument to change its sound, which could be compared to voicing a piano to suit a particular playing style, except that the possibilities are far wider. Programming synthesisers is something which players no longer have to do if they don't want to, but even small tweaks of existing preset sounds to better suit the use the player wants to put them to can bring considerable benefits. With fully analogue synthesisers (and those digital ones whose design, and often sound, is inspired by them) where there are controls for every parameter on the front panel (like for example the common trick of tweaking the filter cutoff frequency whilst playing a phrase), the player has further possibilites for adding expression during a performance, which need to be explored if the instrument's full potential is to be realised. That element to the use of synthesisers actually makes them harder to work with, demanding a wider range of skills than with playing an acoustic instrument...of course, a player can just use the presets and be done with it, but having preset sounds doesn't make it any easier than the piano, which also offers a preset sound.
A big aspect of learning any instrument is knowing how its sound fits into pieces of music, and being able to vary the tone colour to fit a particular piece...with the majority of acoustic instruments, that's a lot to learn (perhaps especially in rock and similarly more 'popular' forms of music, where a lot less is dictated to the player than in classical), but when the instrument is capable of creating as wide a range of sounds as the average synthesiser, the knowledge demanded is really quite vast. Of course, it's always possible to fall back on tried and trusted formulae, but then, that's not then skilled use of it.

I suppose it could then be fair to say that it's possible to use many of the more modern synthesisers in a lazy way. I'm not sure that's necessarily any worse than people using guitars in a lazy way, which they've been doing for years (go down to your nearest open mic night and listen out for how many people turn up and just do the same strumming pattern on their acoustic guitars...).
There are some software instruments now based on sample libraries, which contain all the elements needed to put together a fully produced sounding track, and being based on loops of real players, it doesn't sound like samples. It would also be easy to point a finger at those and say that there's no talent involved in making music with computers nowadays...which would perhaps be true, if what came out of these things didn't sound like the library music that's been around for decades. There's not a lot of skill involved in pushing the button and setting off one of those loops, but using a computer setup to create interesting, creative, personal music is something quite different.

Being someone who works with both acoustic/electroacoustic and electronic instruments, I can't honestly say that I find that one kind demands less skill than the other - they both demand the same musical ear, the knowledge of what sounds to use where, and what techniques to use to get the best results. That does cross over with arranging and compositional skills (especially with instruments like the synthesisers which can produce so many different types of sound), and I'd not really be able to say exactly where it stops being simply knowing the instrument well and where it starts to become arranging (which is knowing how to best make use of instruments to suit the music...an arranger needs extensive knowledge of how to best use each instrument, and the player needs knowledge of how to best use his/her instrument to suit the arrangement, and in the case of styles which don't rely on written arrangements, the player often has a role in creating the arrangement).

This is where Mike really has shown his skill - he may not be the world's greatest mandolinist, for example, but he's been able to use the mandolin to great effect in his work, by knowing how and where to use it in his compositions. The same goes for the synthesisers - I think that listening to Amarok and The Songs Of Distant Earth together would display his knowledge of how to use them to best effect (the fact that most people wouldn't even name Amarok as an example of the use of synthesisers goes to show how well used they are there, I think). That's not to say that there haven't been times when he's used them rather less effectively...
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: Dec. 30 2004, 05:15

Quote (TubularBelle @ Dec. 28 2004, 14:08)
But I still believe it takes more talent to be able to play a traditional instrument.


I suppose you could say that, depending on what you mean by an electronic instrument. My brother uses FL Studio to create music without any actual instruments present. Really he wouldn't need any ability with keyboards or any other instrument to make it, as he does it all on the computer. However, he does play the guitar with school, so he does have actual musical talent. The computer allows him to record synthesizer passages he would never be able to play on a keyboard, but he still needs talent, as Korgscrew said, to make it sound good. With my complete lack of musical training, you wouldn't want to hear me trying to write something with FL Studio, no matter how little talent it takes!!

I can't imagine that recording music gets any easier than doing it all on computer. With an actual synthisizer, you do need to be able to play the keyboard. The only real difference between a piano and synthesizer is the sound that comes out. I can't say that one would be any easier than the other.


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TwyliteMagick Offline




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Posted: Dec. 31 2004, 15:53

Quote (raven4x4x @ Dec. 28 2004, 20:47)
For a perfect example of how synthesizers and keyboards can be warm, organic, emotive etc just listen to Jeff Wayne's 'War of the Worlds' album. This is one of my all time favourite albums, with some of the best keyboard work i've ever heard.

I totally agree with that especially on "Forever Autumn" with the flute like synth. I can understand Wayne wanting to use a synthesizer for that because (speaking from hours of practise when I still thought I could play flute like Jethro Tull) the effect and riff is impossible to play using a "real" or traditional flute. I guess I just don't understand why Mike uses synthesizers, which can never sound exactly like the traditional instruments, when he is as talented as he is on other instruments. Also, where have the timpanis gone?


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"Whatever happened to the teenage dream?" It shrivelled and burned in the flames of reality, to become the fuel that destroys the next generation.

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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Jan. 01 2005, 19:48

Quote
But I still believe it takes more talent to be able to play a traditional instrument.


HI Everyone,

WOW, what a response to my post by Korgscrew, that was amazing, and I have read it through twice and am still trying to understand the whole thing.
But in the meantime, I apologise profusely!!!!
I should have said on a dexterity level, just the physical fingering work of a quitar etc, and without even realising it, but agreeing with Korgscrew on the one bit I have understood so far, is the difference between say a synth or a piano which plays the same note or a guitar or violin which can sound a different note every time you play it. So I meant the dexterity level of maintaining a note that you have effectively created by your own hand (work).
But I now realise that if I were to categorise it like that I would have to put a piano in one list, a traditonal instrument, and synths and guitars in another list together, because with a sythn you can create a different sound every time you play it. I love synth sounds as much as traditional sounds.
I am still deciphering that post so I will comment no further.
But I rescind (?) my previous comment quoted above. I still can't work out how to do quotes.


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Jan. 02 2005, 18:03

Ok, here I come.

In my view, Mike's music became lazy because he found synths that can play instruments in extremely realistic fashion, and so he doesn't need people anymore. Why hire a flute player when you can get a "perfect" flute sound off a computer? And why bring a sax player when you can play (godawful) sax guitar? It's easier, it's cheaper, faster, doesn't require you to handle with those scary things called "people" and everything that comes with them. In that way, compuers are a curse. Didn't Mike himself say that when he was making Amarok? He's proving his own theory right.

Synthesizers can be great when you treat them like that: synthesizers; things that produce sounds. Would I call Brian Eno or Kraftwerk "lazy" because they use synthesizers, like Mike Oldfield? Of course not. Eno makes the synths bend on their knees and lick his boots. The synthesizers do the same thing with Mike Oldfield. There are three different things: when you play with computers because you have no other choice (*makes innocent face*); when you play with computers because you control them; and when you play with computers because you are unable to work with people.


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Nicolas
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Posted: Jan. 28 2005, 17:55

I just wanted to add that on a keyboard (so one with sampled sounds, not a sythesizer which uses oscillators) one STILL needs fingersetting and techniques.  "Modern" keyboards have touch-sensitive keys, which not only change the volume of the sample played, but also contain multiple samples for multiple volumes, which can even be interpolated.  I can tell you, one can play teh correct notes at the correct time, and even at the correct volume, and still somebody else will play it better.  It's all in the milliseconds.  They don't need to be right on time, they need to be right on feel.  Just like a piano or a guitar, one needs to play teh keyboard with lots of feel.  Maybe even more feel because it is less easy to translate it into the music.  The same counts for classic monophonic synthesizers with no touch-sensitivity.  Here timing is of the essence to give the melody a natural feel, and correct use of the synthesizer in teh music is of the utmost importance.
Making pusic purely in FL makes all notes come at exactly the right moment.  WHile this might sound "perfect" it sounds artificial as well.  Songs need warmth, a natural feel.

Which brings me to Oldfield's style: the combination of melody and arrangement.  The man certainly can make excellent melodies, but I believe it is his arrangements which take them to the next level.  Without his magical arrangements and extreme feel into playing them, his music might have been lost in the masses.  It is the finished product that is truly amazing.  The melodies itself(the ones he created himself) range from good to very, very, very good; they stay just one step below his arranged final products which are just untouchable IMO.

While I might ever create melodies as enchanting as his, I'll never be the arranger he is, certainly not because arranging is my weak spot.  Sometimes I'd love to hear him doing an interpretation of my creations.  However, I would feel sooooo small :)
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Elgoras Offline




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Posted: Jan. 28 2005, 18:48

How many other guitarists can you recognize just by hearing a guitar solo, even in a song you never heard before??

Mike has such a distinct way of playing, especially in his use of vibrato on long high pitch notes that makes him immediately recognizable.

There are many good guitarists around here, but we wouldn't recognize who is actually playing, if we were blind folded.
Mike Oldfield is, for me, a great guitarist, not only because he masters the technique, but because his sound is unique.
I'm thinking as well as Steve Howe from Yes, Robert Fripp from King Crimson, just to name a couple of other players.

It's like looking at a Renoir, or Picasso, and know who painted it, even if you're looking at one of their paintings that you're never seen before.
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TwyliteMagick Offline




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Posted: Jan. 31 2005, 15:10

Quote (Elgoras @ Jan. 28 2005, 18:48)
Mike has such a distinct way of playing, especially in his use of vibrato on long high pitch notes that makes him immediately recognizable.

How many other guitarists can you recognize just by hearing a guitar solo, even in a song you never heard before??

Hmmm...I agree but, while his guitar playing is one of the more reckognizable, he is only 1 of a crowd, Hendrix, Clapton, Knofler are just a few, what makes him unique from these great guitarist is that the range of instruments he can play is very diverse. Hendrix only ever played guitar and that is how he made his fortune but Oldfield can play so much as shown by the instrument list from TB among others, why limit himself to just keyboard (synth) and guitar?

I'm not saying that using synth is a "cushy" alternative, it does require a lot of skill, but even the best synths in the world can rarely replicate wholly accurately, the sounds of the instruments they are meant to be.


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"Whatever happened to the teenage dream?" It shrivelled and burned in the flames of reality, to become the fuel that destroys the next generation.

Still, no worries, eh?
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 03:41

Quote (TwyliteMagick @ Jan. 31 2005, 03:10)
even the best synths in the world can rarely replicate wholly accurately, the sounds of the instruments they are meant to be.


In my experience, sounds from other keyboard instruments (such as a piano) can sound really good on a synthesizer. Sometimes I can't tell the difference between a synthesized piano sounds and the real thing. It also saves you having to drag a grand piano around on tour I suppose. However, using a keyboard synthesizer to play a violin, sax or guitar solo won't sound anywhere near as good as the real thing, in my opinion. We all know what happens when Mike uses a guitar mounted synthesizer to record a sax solo!!  :)


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 05:02

And it's sadder when you think of Amarok, when he rebelled against computers and slept on the lawn. Man, he did everything he could to get sounds of real instruments - several instruments - without using computers. And he did it. He can do it. But it seems he lacked motivation to do the same on his next albums. Perhaps Amarok drained him?

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Robbie Offline




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Posted: Jan. 22 2006, 09:26

I think Mike has also the same problem as Jarre's: they try to do a new and fresh style with new and "fashionable" technology, but these kind of compositions don't manage as well as older albums... ok, they are gettin old etc., but both of them should return back their original roots...
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