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Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: April 16 2008, 17:54 As I already said in an Iron Maiden forum, where everyone apparently took everything very seriously, to me heavy metal is more a cultural concept than a musical one, and I don't think that Mike, 'mentally', ever belonged to that concept... indeed, "Shadow on the Wall", which would have been considered heavy metal by Eighties standards, was considered just rock by Mike himself. However, there are some pieces he did which are actually quite heavy in their instrumentation and their construction, if not in their concept. To me those tracks are the following: - The Piltdown Man section from TB, and "Caveman" from TB 2003 - "Dark Star", "Sunjammer" and "Altered State" from TBII - "Outcast" from TBIII - "Five Miles Out". Listen to the 'lost in static 18' bit... - "Shadow on the Wall" - "No Dream" from Heaven's Open - "Heaven's Open", the song itself - "Cochise" and "Out of mind" from Guitars - "Art in Heaven", especially the studio version. I think "Punkadiddle" (both the studio and the live version) is a little bit too happy and a little bit too light to be really 'heavy'... -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: April 17 2008, 02:45 Quote (Ugo @ April 16 2008, 23:54) I think "Punkadiddle" (both the studio and the live version) is a little bit too happy and a little bit too light to be really 'heavy'... Happiness isn't necessarily an indicator of "non-metalness" though. See Helloween and their countless imitators (Edguy, Stratovarius, Rhapsody...) Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 17 2008, 11:05 Very true.  Conversely, heavy metal doesn't have to be sreamingly loud.  Just look at "Poison Arrows".  It's got metallic darkness at it's heart, but gets loud only briefly during the solo and last verse.  Awesome balance. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: April 17 2008, 14:02 @ Holger: I didn't say that "Punkadiddle" doesn't have metal elements - I said it doesn't sound 'heavy'. By contrast, Helloween sound very 'heavy' even in their happiest stuff, at least to me. My point is that "Punkadiddle" is not likely to belong to the heavy metal 'concept'. @ Bassman: yes, of course being loud is not a determining factor in heavy metal music. There's a Maiden song called '"Wasting Love" which isn't terribly loud or aggressive, yet I don't think you can deny that it belongs to the heavy metal genre. By the same standard, I think that some of Mike's finales have all the elements to be classified as 'heavy' pieces, especially Ommadawn part 1, Amarok and "Far above the Clouds". Even a piece like "The Tempest" from MotS sounds 'heavy' to me, despite the fact that it doesn't feature any distorted guitars. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 17 2008, 17:56 I agree 100%.  Heavy Metal is a state of mind, despite how the music biz have largely succeeded in turning it into a fashion. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 17 2008, 17:58 Now I must get back to my chamomile tea and Barbra Streisand album. Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: April 17 2008, 18:12 Quote (Ugo @ April 17 2008, 20:02) @ Holger: I didn't say that "Punkadiddle" doesn't have metal elements - I said it doesn't sound 'heavy'. By contrast, Helloween sound very 'heavy' even in their happiest stuff, at least to me. My point is that "Punkadiddle" is not likely to belong to the heavy metal 'concept'. I agree it doesn't, though I don't quite understand your reasoning. Never mind though. Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 17 2008, 18:46 For those that don't live in England: Back in the late 70's in the UK there suddenly sprouted an offshoot of punk called "Oi!".  It's a sub-genre that survives to this day.  From the slightly grungey guitar sound it's not a long stretch to assume that Punkadiddle is an affectionate pastiche to punk rock, despite Mr. Oldfield's frequent claims to have "never heard of it".  For crying out loud, he even gets all the band to shout "Oi!" several times. I don't mean to come off like I know everything I just try to SOUND like I know everything. Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: April 18 2008, 01:55 Quote (Bassman @ April 17 2008, 18:46) Back in the late 70's in the UK there suddenly sprouted an offshoot of punk called "Oi!".  It's a sub-genre that survives to this day.  From the slightly grungey guitar sound it's not a long stretch to assume that Punkadiddle is an affectionate pastiche to punk rock, despite Mr. Oldfield's frequent claims to have "never heard of it".  For crying out loud, he even gets all the band to shout "Oi!" several times. This American is halfway to believing that crazy story. Darn my Brit-cultural ignorance. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 18 2008, 11:44 I swear every word of it is true. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: April 18 2008, 17:37 @ Holger - I guess I don't even know what actually is the point that I'm trying to make. It's always very difficult for me to articulate into words my impressions on something which I feel passionately only with my guts, with my instinct - not with my mind. And music is, of course, one of those things. Another is the feeling I get when I'm diving, but let's not go into that. @  Bassman: Apart from the fact that I think it's only Mike shouting "Oi!" on Punkadiddle (not the whole band), "Oi!" sounds to me like it's more likely associated with heavy metal [here we go again!! ] than with punk. On the DVD of Metallica's S&M concert, there are various instances where the audience shouts rhythmically "Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!" etc. These are transcribed in the karaoke-style subtitles  as "Hey! Hey!" etc., but halfway through the show they degenerate into "Oi! Oi! Oi! Oi!" etc. - even in the subtitles. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 18 2008, 18:02 Good heavens, can't anyone from the UK back me up on this?  I don't bite-unless my missus tells me to. LLP   Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: April 18 2008, 18:20 @ Bassman: I'm not from the UK but I think I, or rather Wikipedia, can back you up. Wikipedia -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: April 18 2008, 18:33 Quote (Bassman @ April 18 2008, 18:02) Good heavens, can't anyone from the UK back me up on this?  I don't bite-unless my missus tells me to. LLP   Hey I`ll back you up there fella` you`re absolutely spot on imo.Oi was kind of a clash between the skinhead movement and punk.It got championed by people like Gary Bushell(bit of a right wing loon) cos it wos meant to bring punk back to the streets like innit.Some of those original punk guys were starting to learn way too many chords in his opinion.And singing about politics and stuff.The 4 skins are about the only band I can remember who were explicitly Oi.But then there was a few other bands that got lumped in there as well.Angelic Upstarts were one of them who come from just down the road to where I live actually.And it all took place in 1979,and I`m pretty sure that one of the music mags over here refrenced the connection at the time as well..Red Star in Smash Hits anyone???Album got a good review if I remember although he did say..."still too much overhead guitar."...No way!!!How wrong could the guy be? Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: April 18 2008, 18:40 God bless both of you fine gentlemen. (Unfortunately there is no emoticon for humble gratitude.) Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: April 21 2008, 08:58 And to add to this i also have heard of Oi.With reference to Dirk's comment,is that the same Gary Bushell that used to write a TV column in one of the tabloids?Failed musician!  And Smash Hit?!(you actaulyy read that???)Failed musicians. Unfortunatley (or fortunatley depending on your view point)i was  too young to actually remember Oi with any clarity as i was only 4 if we're taking 1979 as the time of Oi but the programme i saw said exactly what Dirk said about it being a reaction to the punks getting past Burt Weedon's Play In A Day standard and actually saying something of relevance (ie the Clash). -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: April 21 2008, 09:05 Quote (The Caveman @ April 21 2008, 14:58) the programme i saw said exactly what Dirk said about it being a reaction to the punks getting past Burt Weedon's Play In A Day standard and actually saying something of relevance (ie the Clash). Had no idea who Burt Weedon was so I looked him up... priceless! Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: April 21 2008, 09:15 Quote (The Caveman @ April 21 2008, 08:58) And to add to this i also have heard of Oi.With reference to Dirk's comment,is that the same Gary Bushell that used to write a TV column in one of the tabloids?Failed musician!  And Smash Hit?!(you actaulyy read that???)Failed musicians. Unfortunatley (or fortunatley depending on your view point)i was  too young to actually remember Oi with any clarity as i was only 4 if we're taking 1979 as the time of Oi but the programme i saw said exactly what Dirk said about it being a reaction to the punks getting past Burt Weedon's Play In A Day standard and actually saying something of relevance (ie the Clash). Yes it`s the same Gary Bushell he used to write for Sounds back in those days if I remember rightly.Which actually became a very Heavy Metal orientated publication at around that time.Then of course he went on to  write tv columns in the tabloids.."bring back variety,benny hill and the krankies etc."All very man of the people stuff,and he was exactly the same when it cames to his views on music. You`ve got to cut me some slack with the Smash Hits thing though I was only 13 years old you know.Besides it used to have all the words to the songs in there as well so you could sing along with the radio and everything..  ..For some reason that Platinum review has remained stuck in my head all these years later. Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: April 21 2008, 09:22 @Holger....Mike learnt form that very tomb as did thousands of other players.It taught the real basic stuff.Sold millions of copies.Just a shame some people didn't go further. And Dirk....ok i confess.My big Sis used to buy it and i used to take a sneaky peak now and then. Bushell........hmmm.A real steak and kidney pudding,jellied eels,cor blimey cockney if memory serves. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

Scatterplot Group: Members Posts: 1980 Joined: Dec. 2007 Posted: July 06 2008, 02:41 Since this topic got started some months ago, I thought and smoked on this matter........Here you go: 1. Download Link: Click here to download file http://rapidshare.com/files....p3.html Jimbo -------------- We raise our voices in the night Crying to heaven And will our voices be heard Or will they break Like the wind Back to top

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