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CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Jan. 06 2001, 19:21 I listen a lot to a German radio station (WDR3) which plays mainly classical, but also 'modern' music. Of course they play Beethoven, Mozart etc., but also Strawinsky, Gershwin, John Cage and many contemporary composers. They even feature lots of jazz, and sometimes even Frank Zappa. But never Mike Oldfield. So I guess, Mike will never get access to the Hall of Fame of '20th century composers'. What do you think: am I right, and if yes, why is this so? -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Jan. 08 2001, 16:34 No one replied so far. So I'll suggest some reasons. 1) Mike never published his music as printed scores. 2) Mike's music is not 'atonal', so he is not 'modern' enough. 3) Mike doesn't use the classical orchestra instruments but 'irreproducible' synth sounds and effects. 4) Mike played too much rock and folk, so he is not 'serious' enough. 5) Mike never CARED for getting access to the 'Hall Of Fame Of Composers'. So why let him in? In spite of all these, I still think Mike Oldfield is a true 20th (+21st?) century composer and should be honored as one! What do you think? -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Archangel Foster Group: Members Posts: 215 Joined: Oct. 2000 Posted: Jan. 09 2001, 04:06 Well, I've already given my opinion on 'Oldfield the immortal' (on 'General comments'). And I guess all your points are true. I can't think of anything to add right now. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Jan. 09 2001, 18:13 Someone may say:«..Because he made (and still makes) pop songs..."Real" composers do not waste their time composing songs.» Oh yeah? Beethoven did write songs. Mozart too. Brahms too. Schubert too, lots of 'em. All "classical", "serious", "real" composers did write songs. They called 'em lieder, but they were their own days' equivalent of today's pop songs. . And so Mike is not "serious" because he makes songs? I seriously doubt this. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Jan. 10 2001, 16:05 Ugo, I think you're perfectly right. Interesting. I've never looked at it that way! -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Unregistered Posted: Feb. 04 2001, 08:16 The first time I heard Tubular Bells, the word 'composer' popped into my head. Oldfield's writing has more in common with Mozart than the Spice Girls. I think the major obstacle to him being recognised as such is that he does not seem to write scores for traditional orchestral instruments, but that's a limitaion of classical music, not of Oldfield. Orchestras should move with the times and include new instruments, otherwise they will stagnate. There's also a tendency to categorise music, which is ludicrous. Music is music, it doesn't fit easily into categories. Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Feb. 04 2001, 16:26 Pamela, I agree completely. Mike himself said that he treated the concert at Edinburgh Castle as a classical concert. (Elements video.) The musicians played from written scores, and the sounds were samples from the album. So how can anyone categorize this as 'pop'? Ludicrous indeed! -Carsten- -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Dervish_D Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: Feb. 2001 Posted: Feb. 05 2001, 15:20 I totally have to agree with your points. Lots of the so-called "famous" composers spent their time writing music for entertainment or music to be played merely in the background. This was highly unserious actually. Nevertheless those classical composers are much more sophisticated in writing music than Mike. They think about the quality of their music. Mike just listens what sounds somehow cool or in fashion and adds those to songs which are sometimes less or sometimes more boring. What Mike really needs is a producer or assistent, who criticizes Mikes music and helps him, motivates him. I really do like Mike´s early works and I think there are still bits of the style in his later ones. However if he considered, which of the parts would be meaningless or boring or uninspired and would omit those, then the music would be as interesting as in former times. Perhaps it would be sufficient, if he just sticks to his guitars and refrains from using "evil" computers. But at the moment his music really s**** and thats why he has no place in the "hall of fame of great 20th century composers." Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Feb. 05 2001, 16:04 Hi and welcome, Dervish_D! Please don't say 'it sucks'. We had this sort of rudeness in another discussion, and it leads to nothing, I think. But some of your statements sound interesting and controversial, to me at least: 1) Not sophisticated enough? I'm afraid that many critics will agree with you. Yes, I've read some articles which said more or less the same. Not enough real composition, just pleasant sounds... hmmm... 2) Needs a producer? Well, he had Trevor Horn for Tubular Bells 2. And did it do any good? 3) Just stick to his guitars? Well, didn't he do just that on 'Guitars'? 4) Not in Hall of Fame because of recent works? That can't be true. He could have been there after Amarok, IMO. -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Dervish_D Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: Feb. 2001 Posted: Feb. 05 2001, 17:52 You are right, I´m going to take care of my language... Sorry. The point on "Guitars": It does not sound like it was played with guitars. That is the problem I have with it. However, it doesn´t sound like "real" instruments, either. The drums are very thin, many synthi sounds... I don´t like the idea: playing everything with a guitar what could have been played with the specific instrument in a better way. Consider, that he didn´t want to make the guitar sound like a guitar. So why not just use the other instrument. On the other hand, if Mike had tried to immitate certain effects and sounds of other instruments with the sound of his e-guitar, then the music would have been a real exploration. Or just a loomed strain of classical guitar and the feeling, that Mike really thought about, how one can play the guitar really differently. Drums could have been his feet, the string sounds could have been his humming (well... just the idea), the e-guitar as high as if it was a flute... Don´t know, he is the professional composer... In general, the banal use of synthesizers drives me really mad. Look at "Tubular Bells 2" ---> Mike has earned millions of $$$ , BUT WHY ISN´T HE ABLE TO HIRE A NORMAL, HUMAN BAGPIPE PLAYER and instead using this horrible keyboard sound??? (The same with the bells...) I don´t understand this, the bagpipes sound so synthetic. But according to my earlier post, the deficits in sound are not the only problems. On "Millenium Bell" we have lots of aimless repetions ( I like the ones on "Incantations", they are really meditative, especially part iv) and reprises, that sound almost "copied and inserted". All in all, Mike seems to have either no time to make his works mature or, regrettably no interest anymore. In an interview he said, that he still could compose "long and complex" instrumentals, but he´s no longer keen on it, cuz it satisfied him to write small songs. He didn´t have to prove this to someone anymore. This isn´t a good attitude. This seems lazy to some extend. Last point-assistent: BUT HE DOES NEED SOMEONE, WHO OPENS HIS EYES... Sometimes one is blind when creating/doing something. Trivial examples: If I´m going to buy some new clothes, generally I need the assistence of my girlfriend because often I´m not able to decide on my own, what is appropriate and what isn´t. If you lead a discussion, it is a pro and con, enhancing your opinion, but also considering the other ones. --> He needs someone to discuss about the music. Noone should dictate him, what to do, but he needs one to become aware of some (let´s call them)"options" in his music. --> AND plz!! Mike: It takes time to make good music. Noone wants you to release 3 albums a year. Rather wait 5 years for an interesting album then flood us with such a "rubbish" (sorry). P.S. I like the first half of Amarok, but later on, it seems he has 30mins left and no idea, what to put into it. Too many climaxes, which actually do not mark something specific. On the other hand first half ---> after the ...farso,sofar... the peek of those loud guitar riffs and "happy!" farsosofar... wonderful, like Incantations, but "sofar" or "farso", to add this puzzle was a great idea. Schönen Tag noch. Back to top

TimHighfield Group: Members Posts: 543 Joined: Oct. 2000 Posted: Feb. 05 2001, 19:02 You know Dervish D, I thought that in Tubular Bells II, Mike DID hire some bagpipe players, or at least for Tattoo. I dn't know about the bit at the end of The Bell though. -Tim- Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Feb. 05 2001, 19:16 Interesting what you say about 'Guitars', Dervish. See, I also find the idea of imitating instruments using a guitar very interesting...with a bit of playing, a classical guitar can be used to make sounds like bells, a double bass, percussive instruments...all sorts, in fact. String sounds could be created using several multitracked electric guitars, some volume swells and a couple effects... As for TB2...well, he actually hired two bagpipe bands - they're credited in the booklet. Just Mike obviously preferred his horrible keyboard sound. The bell sound was apparently created by Mike himself by sampling real bells (although there are times when it sounds very much like Korg M1 bells to me)...Make of all this what you will The state of his compositions now...hmm...what he's producing is very simple now. That's not necessarily a bad thing though (or not in my books at least), but it can be bad if the cause is being lazy (because you end up with nothing much more than some pappy rubbish with 3 chords that you've forgotten in 5 minutes). Mike has created some pieces that have caught my interest, like Muse for example. I also think he could do with a producer (I tthink sonic vr could do with a producer figure as well, but that's another story...). Yes, TB2 had Trevor Horn and we could argue for quite a while over whether that was good or not...The original Tubular Bells had Tom Newman and Simon Heyworth, however. We can speculate a lot over what effect they had on it, but we could almost certainly say that it would have been a different album without them...Amarok also had Tom Newman there. I am prepared to admit that Ommadawn (another big one with the fans) was created without a producer to assist. So, come on then Dervish...how about the two of us producing Mike's next work, to see what difference it makes? Going back to the topic, I also feel that it is probably that Mike doesn't write for orchestra and present his music in concert halls (or at least not very often) that he is not treated as a 'composer' to rank alongside Gershwin, Cage, etc. That side of the music world can be very snobbish sometimes, and even if the likes of Mozart did write what were essentially 'pop' songs at times, the classical elite probably don't see it that way...Essentially, Mike is a 'pop' musician, and therefore not allowed into their velvet lined halls of fame. Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Feb. 06 2001, 17:32 Here I'm straying from my own topic, but yes: the bagpipes on Tattoo - why so thin and synthetic? I think there were lots of real pipers on stage at Edinburgh. And also real singers instead of the synth voices. Did Mike go as far and use playback? If not, we should go for a live recording instead of the studio version. Must sound much better. And Dervish, can you tell us where to find that interview? Where Mike says: "I could, but I won't"? -Carsten- -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

Dervish_D Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: Feb. 2001 Posted: Feb. 06 2001, 20:08 Well Carsten, you really kept me, but I do tell the truth. Actually I can´t remember 100% which magazine it was. It must have been shortly after the release of "Guitars". I just visited the library and there I saw the German "Keyboards" or "Keys" or else - something of this format. Small letters: "Oldfield interview inside". I still remember he stated, that on his funural he doesn´t mind (*...of course he is dead*) which music should be played but never "Tubular Bells". Regrettably I can´t prove this article to be existened. Tubular Bells 2: Well, in fact the solo bagpipe at the beginning isn´t real, as for the song´s climax, I doubt whether it was recorded with real bagpipes. I hope I understood your irony, that means I would never accuse Mike of using playback. Secondly, where can I get a "live recording"? Finally topic again: Perhaps Mike is not old enough (and still "active"). You can think in two directions then: Firstly, he still does a lot of work and composing, so why "award" him now, if he is actually able to evolve. Or his recent works are not "serious" enough. You can call it "maturity" if you want. It´s more like pop music, easy-listening with Amarok as an exception. Many of the so-called "famous" composers had a lot more consistence through the years which resulted in an overall-considered "high quality" of the compositions. The fact, that Mike shakes hands with commercialism (hmm, I doubt whether one can do without...), makes him appear unseriously. However in many ways, I can´t say, that these are my opinions about that... Final question: Do you actually want Mike to be counted as a famous composers? I like the feeling, that there are indeed just "a few" people on the planet who can really listen to and enjoy his music. I don´t want to be arrogant it´s just an exaggeration, but take into account if it was overplayed on radio, every schoolkid would chat about it, magazines are filled with his pictures. Then you would have the taste of the common people... Say that it is your own special music, no matter if others consider it not as "intellectual" as from the classical composers. Grüße, Dervish. Back to top

CarstenKuss Group: Musicians Posts: 362 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Feb. 07 2001, 15:28 No, I'm not dreaming of that. To be honest: I don't know anything about classical composing. And I started this topic because I hoped, maybe some musically-educated person could give a very simple answer. Like: "Mike Oldfield hasn't invented anything new since the times of J.S.Bach!!!" As long as nobody can do this (convincingly), I will still believe... P.S.: By 'Hall Of Fame', I'm thinking of lists like this one: http://newalbion.com/artists/ -------------- -Carsten- Back to top

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