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Topic: Kate Bush - The  Ninth Wave, Dead or alive?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: May 30 2008, 02:50

Quote (Tayniee @ May 29 2008, 17:09)

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She has learnt to love and accept herself now, and consequently can love others 'better.'


Yes that`s exactly how I see the end to the character`s journey as well.And your mentioning of the character`s almost childlike qualities if you like reminded me of Kate`s own childlike inflection in her voice when she says.."Go to sleep little Earth."..Almost like a final farewell it seems to the person she was before.From "little Earth" to the "Big Sky" I guess.Maybe that bonus track was meant to be there all along?
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Bassman Offline




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Posted: June 01 2008, 22:35

Tayniee, your comment on abuse made my ears perk up.  I think that's a great observation.  I had never thought of that aspect before (I must be approaching senility).  Drowning as a metaphor for the helpless, powerless and often silent confinement of abuse.  As adults we are obligated to recognize the manifestations.  I wonder how many of us see the signs every day but don't really "see" them.  Which is not to say that KB was trying to reveal something previously unspoken of-she's simply a gifted writer.  Though it sort of puts "The Infant Kiss" in a slightly different light for me now.  Certainly food for thought.  On a slightly different note, I also like Dirk's take on the whole cycle.
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Tayniee Offline




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Posted: June 02 2008, 04:46

Quote (Bassman @ June 01 2008, 22:35)
 Drowning as a metaphor for the helpless, powerless and often silent confinement of abuse.

I've got to say it's been a treat talking about Kate Bush here, for me her talents have always been on a par with MO's work.

Drowning as a metaphor for helplessness and dependency is how I see it.  Feeling controlled is usually behind such a state of mind and abuse at the far end of the continium. Don't you think the demon voice in waking the witch sounds a particularly nasty piece of work with it's taunting and shaming and sexual preditor tones. Could be the girl's abuser.

The Infant Kiss is a beautiful tender song, I love it, but along side is a hanging unease, about questionable crossing the line. These days  I don't think you'd get away with those lyrics. Or is it an abuse story?


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Bassman Offline




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Posted: June 02 2008, 10:48

I could go on and on about KB's work for hours.  But I have found that most male KB enthusiasts end up sounding a bit like horny fanboys.  So I have usually stayed quiet and allowed people to only SUSPECT I'm a horny fanboy. FanMAN, rather.  None of my friends or family "get" her, anyway.

:)

The more I think about the Inquisitor voice in "Waking The Witch" the clearer the connection becomes.  Damn!  I don't know why that never occured to me before.  Good call.

And you're right... "The Infant Kiss" probably wouldn't be put out today.  Certainly not if done by anyone that lacked KB's capacity for skillful verbal subtlety.  R. Kelly I'm looking at you.  (God, could you imagine the trainwreck that would be?)


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Tayniee Offline




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Posted: June 02 2008, 12:33

Quote (Bassman @ June 02 2008, 10:48)
I have found that most male KB enthusiasts end up sounding a bit like horny fanboys.

:D

...and female MO enthusiasts can end up sounding like horny fangirls....but what the heck.


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Matt Offline




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Posted: June 02 2008, 13:20

Quote (Tayniee @ June 02 2008, 17:33)
Quote (Bassman @ June 02 2008, 10:48)
I have found that most male KB enthusiasts end up sounding a bit like horny fanboys.

:D

...and female MO enthusiasts can end up sounding like horny fangirls....but what the heck.

I do wish they would allow the :rollseyes: smiley here ;)


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Tayniee Offline




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Posted: June 02 2008, 15:05

Quote (Matt @ May 29 2008, 06:25)
I ended up thinking that tracks 6 to 13 were a group i.e. I mentally tagged what turns out to be "The Big Sky (Meteorological Mix)" as a conclusion to what turns out to be "The Ninth Wave"! Even though I now know they are unrelated I still find it satisfying to consider the big sky mix as a part of the piece...

I don't think I have heard the bonus tracks. So if there is a Big Sky(Meteorological Mix) at the end of Ninth Wave,which I assume sounds similar to Big Sky,that WOULD tie in with the possible psychological conclusion, 'from Little Earth to Big Sky'. The Big Sky representing being all grown up now and worldly.

So all feel related...Ah So Grasshopper. :cool:


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Matt Offline




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Posted: June 03 2008, 07:58

Quote (Tayniee @ June 02 2008, 20:05)
I don't think I have heard the bonus tracks. So if there is a Big Sky(Meteorological Mix) at the end of Ninth Wave,which I assume sounds similar to Big Sky,that WOULD tie in with the possible psychological conclusion, 'from Little Earth to Big Sky'. The Big Sky representing being all grown up now and worldly.

I am not that keen on "The Big Sky" as a standalone song in its original format but somehow for me the Meteorological mix works better, especially in its context at the end of The Ninth Wave. In particular, it has a section where different voices describe clouds ("This cloud looks like the shed at the bottom of my garden" etc. etc.) which is lovely and somehow seems to fit with the upbeat ending of the Ninth Wave.

Worth a listen if you have a chance.


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Bassman Offline




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Posted: June 03 2008, 21:58

Deep water scares the crap out of me.  Not your typical run-of-the-mill fear, mind you.  I mean massive, primal, instinctive, incurable psychological terror.

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Ugo Offline




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Posted: June 04 2008, 07:52

Quote (Bassman @ June 04 2008, 03:58)
Deep water scares the crap out of me.  Not your typical run-of-the-mill fear, mind you.  I mean massive, primal, instinctive, incurable psychological terror.

[off topic...]

Well, one of my hobbies is scuba diving, so water doesn't scare me a great deal, no matter how deep it is. What scares me is the unknown, and of course watery places may be unknown.

Back on topic: After reading all of the opinions here, I'm still not convinced that Kate Bush's Ninth Wave story ends with the woman dying. However, I agree that the lyrics to songs like "Hello Earth" and "The Morning Fog" are deliberately ambiguous and could point in both directions. Also, I don't think that the bonus tracks have anything to do with the story. I have the original HoL CD without any bonus tracks, it sounds very complete to me. :) The bonus tracks, to me, don't count as additions to the story, especially since one of them is a remix of a track which didn't originally have anything to do with it - being a section of the album's first half, not of the second one! ;)


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 05 2008, 10:59

Matt's been giving me a prod to add something to this discussion, on the grounds that I had a sort of mild Kate Bush epiphany listening to this album some years ago while decorating a room. It's true - I ended up with the whole album on repeat, playing through the day from start to finish.

I've watched these posts as they've been added here, and it seemed to me that almost everyone has thought far more about this than I have, so that any comments I might make would be relatively superficial. And for one reason or another, I've not been listening to KB lately - though I listened twice to the Ninth Wave today, to refresh my memory.

I find myself faced not so much with a story, but something more like a set of transient images and fleeting thoughts (represented by the individual lines), experienced against a more slowly shifting background (the separate songs). I should explain that some years ago, while listening to Bob Dylan's 'Mississippi', I realised that the key to many of Dylan's lyrics was that they often mirrored our states of consciousness - fragmentary bits of things drifting in and out of our perceptions, sometimes so near the edge of consciousness that we're hardly aware of them unless we make a real effort to stop them in their tracks. Whether that works for anyone else I don't know - but I felt that I understood Bob a lot better after that.

My inclination is to listen to The Ninth Wave in the same kind of way - to treat it as if it were inspired by our shifting consciousness  - but in this case, a consciousness under the threat of something overwhelming. I read the Ninth Wave itself as an image of that - the cataclysm (whatever it might be) that threatens to overwhelm us. I'm struck by the fragmentary nature of the lyrics - little snapshots of consciousness: the sense of more than one voice being present; snatches of paradoxical thoughts and bits of Zen - the 'one hand clapping' maybe just for a moment making sense because all these  different voices are 'me'. There's the puzzlement over time, and the impossibility of grasping the moment that 'doesn't belong to you, it belongs to me'. The terror of feeling that your whole mental structure is giving way (I think 'Under Ice' is just brilliant at conveying that - like a gigantic migraine, with the splinters of silvery light breaking up not just vision, but everything that holds you up.)

So there's all of this going on - and then there's the Tennyson poem, which is NOT 'The Holy Grail' as it says on the cover, but 'The Coming of Arthur' - see here. Now that HAS to be important. The ninth wave that threatens to overwhelm actually brings with it the archetypal hero that will save us all - Arthur. See how it continues from KB's quote:

Wave after wave, each mightier than the last,
Till last, a ninth one, gathering half the deep
And full of voices, slowly rose and plunged
Roaring, and all the wave was in a flame:
And down the wave and in the flame was borne
A naked babe, and rode to Merlin's feet,
Who stoopt and caught the babe, and cried, 'The King!


So the ninth wave which threatens destruction also brings with it new life, terribly vulnerable right now, but which, even so, is the child who'll become the hero who will save us. That must mean, surely, that the overall meaning of KB's song cycle is upbeat, positive - some sort of redemption is possible from the apparent destruction. Out of life's devastating visitations we can be reborn, stronger and better, and understanding more.

But this is just my take on it. I wouldn't want to have to defend it, and I'm not trying to convince anyone. It's just the way I try to make sense of it for myself. So there you go, Matt. 'A fine mess you got me into!', to coin a phrase.
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Matt Offline




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Posted: June 11 2008, 10:55

Lots of interesting observations in the various comments above. Seems that I am the only one (here at least) who tends to put quite such a literal interpretation on events when listening to this track. Everying (including me! ) seems in general agreement about the range of emotional states being expressed. Some specific notes:
  • Alan, I hadn't realised the Arthurian link. You mention "KBs quote". Is this on the sleeve notes that I've missed or is there another comment somewhere? A bit of lyric I haven't picked up? [trivia]A colleague at a previous job was collator of a FAQ on Arthurian legend, never really got into it myself even though my workstation ended up being used as FTP server for the mailing list for a while.[/trivia]
  • Upbeat ending - yes, I feel it is overall upbeat at the end, even though my take on it is fairly negative in some ways (in my "story", she dies. Also see below! ). In terms of Alans comments on rebirth and being born again - I fit this in with afterlife of some sort.
  • The very end of Ninth Wave (discounting Big Sky :-) ) my take on the story has her going to the afterlife/heaven/wherever after dying. The final lyrics discuss telling her mother father and brother how much she loves them. In my understanding this means they also die in the same incident.
  • Generally love that one piece of music like this can have so many variations on how people perceive it and what they take from it!


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 11 2008, 17:04

Quote (Matt @ June 11 2008, 15:55)
Alan, I hadn't realised the Arthurian link. You mention "KBs quote". Is this on the sleeve notes that I've missed or is there another comment somewhere?

Matt, on the back of the CD (the section inlaid in the tray) the following lines are quoted along with the tracklisting:

Wave after wave, each mightier than the last,
Till last, a ninth one, gathering half the deep
And full of voices, slowly rose and plunged
Roaring, and all the wave was in a flame

On the CD, these lines are attributed to Tennyson's 'The Holy Grail', but that's a mistake. They are by Tennyson, but are actually from 'The Coming of Arthur'. She doesn't quote the three lines I marked in bold in my previous post, but the point is that she obviously knew what those three lines were, and what they imply (following on as they do from the 'ninth wave passage' ) - which is that the wave that seems to threaten our destruction also brings with it the means of rebirth.

Whether you read this as suggesting some kind of afterlife (as you do), or whether you read it as describing our potential to rebuild ourselves and grow when we think all is lost (as I do), those different interpretations all point to the power and universality of myth, I think. The myth (in this case the myth of the ninth wave and the coming of Arthur) is the universal source - we draw from it the specifics of what we need in any particular case.
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: June 12 2008, 05:26

[quote=Matt,June 11 2008, 15:55][/quote]
Quote
The final lyrics discuss telling her mother father and brother how much she loves them. In my understanding this means they also die in the same incident.


I would never have thought of that in a million years I have to say.And from that I can see how your interpratation of The Morning Fog makes sense to me now.Before I think I just had this vision of a ghost going round knocking on everyone`s doors or something..."Hellooo!...It`s only me."..Seriously I think that`s as far as I got down that avenue of thought.And you`re chastising your self for literal translations? ..Actually matt I thought the way you kind of pinned down the story to the tracks earlier made a lot of sense to me.It also opened my eyes to a few things as well regarding my own kind of take on it.As have both Tayniee`s and Alan D`s posts here also,many thanks for those.

Just a quick mention on The Big Sky again,which you know it is`nt a part of The Ninth Wave undoubtably.I did`nt really mean it to sound that way earlier in case of any confusion btw.I just get the feeling that The Ninth Wave is very autobiographical in some way.I know Kate used to like to step outside of herself a little bit back in those days.But the sheer volume of ambigous metaphors she utilises in that piece I always felt she was really trying to get at the heart of something.You know I think it all related in some way to some major discovery or maybe several discoveries she made about herself.The Big Sky for me seems to be a joyous celebration somehow of that experience.There`s a playfulness about it if you like.But it`s like a knowing playfulness and I`m sure she`s talking to her former self here in a way.It`s like life is for living girl so stop looking at your belly button.Even though I dare say Kate has a very cute belly button.And if I was her I`d probably spend a lot of time looking at it.Just kind of gazing dumbstruck lost in my admiration of it..Oh dear horny fanman alert... :p
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Bassman Offline




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Posted: June 12 2008, 09:41

Two words:  babooshka outfit!!!!!

Alert klaxons going off!

:)  :)


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summer Offline




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Posted: June 12 2008, 15:01

Quote (Dirk Star @ June 12 2008, 05:26)
As have both Tayniee`s and Alan D`s posts here also,many thanks for those.

Yer i agree with you there Tayniee's take has defo opened my eyes to Kate Bush. With the big sky representing being grown up.

Actually Tayniee has gone quiet.
TAAAAYNIEEEEEE where are you!!! I would like my eyes to be wider please!
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: June 13 2008, 08:39

Quote (Bassman @ June 12 2008, 14:41)
Two words:  babooshka outfit!!!!!

Alert klaxons going off!

:)  :)

Surely you can get that gear on ebay I`m wondering?Last Christmas me and the wife were listening to Kate sing December Will Be Magic Again on a christmas compilation thing I`d made up.When she suddenlly decided to get up and do this hilarious Kate dance/impression she`d obviously being keeping to herself all these years.Hilarious but none the less stimulating at the same time if you catch my drift.Given the right kind of mood though and appropriate scanty armour  attire.I dare say I would`nt be the least bit amused by it in the slightest..   :D

There are some very interesting and thought provoking musings relating to The Ninth Wave from a poster called Tanni on this thread located on another forum here In some ways some of it kind of relates to what myself and some other posters have already mentioned here.But there`s so much more here to ponder on I could`nt resist linking it.I was especialy intrigued I think reading some of the thoughts on Hello Earth.One of the lines that always kind of bothered or puzzled me in that song was the whole.."Watching storms start to form..Over America."..You know it was very specific and she really emphasizes it as well when she sings it.I think years ago I tried to fathom(oops! ) it out for myself but I honestly can`t remember where that train of thought led me to now.Anyway there are some thoughts on that and a whole lot more besides well worth a read I thought.

Also at the bottom of this page
here is an interview with Kate where she goes through every song on The Hounds Of Love album track by track.She does`nt really give too much away,and she even manages to just breeze past the whole lived or died thing.There`s still some nice little insights into the songs themselves there though.
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Matt Offline




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Posted: June 13 2008, 09:43

Fantastic links Dirk Star!

The first one is such a wealth of information and thoughts I am not sure I can take it in in one read. I'll give my brain a break and come back to it! Did you spot the link to someones screenplay for a movie for Ninth Wave?

Your second link to the interview (at the bottom of the page) with Kate does seem to be pretty specific about what she planned the songs to mean. She doesn't as far as I can make out confirm whether the character lives or dies at the end? Her take on her own music does sort of rule out my own take on the Ninth Wave but I am sure nobody would mind me making up, enjoying and sticking with my own interpretation!


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Bassman Offline




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Posted: June 13 2008, 11:00

@ Dirk.  Yeah, one probably could get that gear on e-bay, but surely NOT what was stuffed into it!

:laugh:
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: June 13 2008, 21:09

Quote (Matt @ June 13 2008, 14:43)
Fantastic links Dirk Star!

The first one is such a wealth of information and thoughts I am not sure I can take it in in one read. I'll give my brain a break and come back to it! Did you spot the link to someones screenplay for a movie for Ninth Wave?

Your second link to the interview (at the bottom of the page) with Kate does seem to be pretty specific about what she planned the songs to mean. She doesn't as far as I can make out confirm whether the character lives or dies at the end? Her take on her own music does sort of rule out my own take on the Ninth Wave but I am sure nobody would mind me making up, enjoying and sticking with my own interpretation!

I did kind of skim read that screenplay link a little earlier,about the two brothers who were fishermen.I was`nt really sure if I liked the idea or not.I liked the way it seemed to be panning out alongside the music.But I think I expected some kind of story synopsis or explanation for the ideas at the end of it.I suppose that would maybe defeat some of the point to it in all reality I don`t know?I`ll try and read it more thouroughly later on.

Your right of course there`s so much to take in on that thread it`s ridiculous.Every time I go back to it I`m picking up on something new.Not too mention the fact that a large proportion of it is way over my head anyway.Some of the stuff on Hello Earth though as a kind of modern morality tale relating to the aids pandemic etc.I could definetley see all that reading his kind of translation of it.Whether Kate ever really intended any of that though I honestly don`t know.She did make mention somewhere once that it was also about the coming of a great flood.So you could maybe read into that what you like I suppose???

I don`t know what my wife would make of me buying Kate Bush on ebay bassman,but I don`t think it`d be good.You know where the hell would you keep her for a start?On the plus side though she`s always banging on about how she loves doing housework in interviews and songs about washing machines etc.An extra pair of hands never comes in wrong you know as my mother used to say.We`re completely snowed under with the ironing at the moment.Who knows she might welcome her in with open arms?...Now there`s something to ponder on.
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