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Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: May 26 2008, 07:01 I'm listening to "Hounds of Love" again at the moment, mainly the "second side" of the album, tracks 6 to 12 called collectively "The Ninth Wave". It's a fascinating piece, utterly terrifying in places, tragic and painful in places but also very uplifting in others. I've seen the odd debate concerning what the piece is about, generally agreeing it is about a woman drowning. Anyone here listened to this and have their own opinions? In particular, does she die? Me, I think it is about an accident at sea and a young girl being caught up in it, drowning, attempts to resuscitate but ultimately dying. Doesn't sound like much fun does it but like a well made but tragic movie, it is something I can be captivated by again and again. -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: May 26 2008, 08:23 I did read that Kate was quoted as saying it was about a person lost at sea struggling to stay awake in the water.There`s a lot of out of body type references throughout the piece.But my feelings were that this was related to the character drifting in and out of consciousness trying to stay afloat.Waking The Witch is kind of a prime example of that I suppose.Imo the character survives at the end plucked from the water at that first nylon guitar string of The Morning Fog.And then vows to use this near death experience to live their life to the fullest "tell everyone how much she loves them" etc.(cue shot of Homer Simpson eating potato chips here. )   I guess it`s open to a lot of interpratation though,which is one of the great things about it.I recently watched the movie Pans Labyrinth,and without wishing to spoil the end of that movie for people who hav`nt seen it.I was reminded of this album whilst thinking about the film afterwards.Great film,and a great piece of music from Kate..Did she ever get round to making a film of this music?I did hear/read she intended to at the time. Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 26 2008, 09:04 'Get out of the way, get out of the water'.. with the bass, drum  and helicopter all in sinc.... great stuff, Kate Bush's Amarok I think. I visualise this as a bad dream or nightmare but also a struggle with the unconscious on issues of 'good' and 'bad'. The Waking the Witch 'demon' voice sounds similar to MO's demon in TB, but Kate's demon has more the menace of a priest versus the sexualised, like a coming of age struggle. As for the under ice story, I think she is saved by the helicopter, but I have debated that question my self ?? The imagination goes all over the place with this genius work. -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: May 26 2008, 10:22 I forgot that I was going to mention that many people who have survived near death experiences through almost drowning.Often say that it is a very calming and peaceful experience inwardly.This of course usually completely conflicts with witness accounts of such incidents.Where the "victim" is seen to be in a blind state of heightened panic fighting to save themselves.I hav`nt read anything to back this up,but I think Kate may have been fascinated by that side of it as well.A kind of struggle between the conscious and the unconscious mind for want of survival and/or release. Back to top

Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: May 26 2008, 12:05 Tayniee: Comparison with Amarok is interesting, I had half had the same thought myself. They both - to me - tell a story and I usually find listening to Amarok I am visualising the story as I listen. Both also "challenging" - if that is the right word - to listen to at times but very rewarding once you get them. Dirk Star: Maybe you are right about it being open to interpretation, maybe there isn't a right answer. Comparison with Amarok again! -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 26 2008, 13:24 'She said come on let me live '...then great violin solo.. ....I think after she was pulled out of the water she was clinically dead, then resusitated, but remained in a coma. It was pretty much hit or miss if she'd come through. Then suddenly, 'opens eyes, begins to breath, begins to speak...born again into the sweet morning fog...' Thank goodness for that   -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: May 26 2008, 18:10 According to the gaffa.org fan site, Kate Bush's view on the matter is that the woman survives. See here and here. I love Hounds of Love, it's one of the (only) three Kate bush albums I like (and have), the others being The Kick Inside and Aerial. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: May 28 2008, 13:36 I recall looking up all kinds of material about this exact question back in 1985 when the record came out.  It disturbed and haunted me so much that it became almost a sweet torment.  Anyway, in addition to the same articles that Ugo just pointed out, I remember Kate being quoted as saying in some interview or another, "she didn't make it".  We all know how trustworthy magazine articles can be, don't we?  After reading all that stuff, my interpretation of the last songs was a bit altered.  I feel "Hello Earth" is a seemingly random memory that our heroine is recalling in her final moments, which culminates in her physical self being able to see her own soul "travelin' fast" heavenward.  Then "The Morning Fog" is the soul rejoining the pure joy of reunion with all those loved ones that had passed before her. Not as optimistic an ending as her rescue, of course, but surely still an optimistic ending anyway. -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 28 2008, 14:08 Bassman, I'm gutted !! -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: May 28 2008, 15:00 Quote (Bassman @ May 28 2008, 18:36) I recall looking up all kinds of material about this exact question back in 1985 when the record came out.  It disturbed and haunted me so much that it became almost a sweet torment.  Anyway, in addition to the same articles that Ugo just pointed out, I remember Kate being quoted as saying in some interview or another, "she didn't make it".  We all know how trustworthy magazine articles can be, don't we?  After reading all that stuff, my interpretation of the last songs was a bit altered.  I feel "Hello Earth" is a seemingly random memory that our heroine is recalling in her final moments, which culminates in her physical self being able to see her own soul "travelin' fast" heavenward.  Then "The Morning Fog" is the soul rejoining the pure joy of reunion with all those loved ones that had passed before her. Not as optimistic an ending as her rescue, of course, but surely still an optimistic ending anyway. That all fits with the way I interpret the tracks. For me: And dream of sheep - Girl trying to get to sleep in a bunk on a boat, background noises troubling her a bit (things starting to go wrong on boat) Under ice- Asleep and dreaming. Dream turns to nightmare, premonition aided by subconcious awareness of background noises as things are getting worse on the boat Waking the witch - People trying to wake her up as time to evacuate boat but too late. Water rushes in and she is drowning. Somehow, she is rescued alive but very ill, probably in a coma Watching you without me - Body in coma, faint awareness of people trying to wake her up Jig of life - Awake - sortof - but lots of pain and body not really able to cope, might die, backward and forward between progress and getting worse Hello earth - Dies The morning fog - Afterlife - will see and thank and rejoice friends and family OK, thats just the way I see it and I agree different interpretations are part of what a piece like this should be about. -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: May 28 2008, 16:34 Tayniee-gutted?  I know, I know... my point of view is brutal!  But I am really glad that the songs are so wide open to such differing interpretations.  If others, like you, think she was rescued, then GREAT, because it helps to balance out the fatalistic view of it that I have.  There seems to be no definitive answer to it, and I guess I don't really want there to be one. Man, that whole song cycle absolutely blew me away back then.  It still does.  What a gutsy thing for KB to have done, and such a tonic for the happy-go-lucky tone that most 80's music had at the time.  Talk about an artist exploring their darker side! I just remembered the main reason I was/am so affected by it (and why did I momentarily forget?).  Just mere months before the record came out I had lost my mother to cancer and in the months following I kept making the connection in my head (as morbid as it may be) that drowning and slowly slipping away in a cancer coma must be very similar.  And in spite of how crazy that sounds, "The Morning Fog" actually helped me to cope with what I saw as the finality of death.  That maybe it's not so final.  That the love you left behind and the love you take with you puts your own unique footprint upon existence.  That it "continues" us in some way. It was a comforting notion that helped me then, and to this day whenever I have lost someone else.  Can you just imagine if KB had not put "The Morning Fog" at the end, and left us with only "Hello Earth"?  Harsh! -------------- Turn up the music... Hi as Fi can go. Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 28 2008, 17:53 Quote (Bassman @ May 28 2008, 16:34) Crikey Bassman, that is a powerful connection to The Ninth Wave, I understand where you're coming from now. You lost your mum at a very young age. The Morning Fog is a beautiful, touching piece, I've always thought so, and says it all about what we pass on in life, I love the words. I'm glad you had The Ninth Wave at that time, there is something very cathartic about the sequence to it, must have helped you get through and make sense the best you could.     -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

ex member 419 Group: Members Posts: 1177 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 28 2008, 21:35 Couldn't have been as bad as what Mike and his crew went through on their plane in "Five Miles Out". Now that's terrifying. I used to fly from the north of the state to the south during my nursing training ( a long time ago), and if smaller aircraft hit wind shears, hail and storms they cannot navigate around, it is not pleasant at all as a passenger. Eventually I got used to the turbulence and enjoyed sitting up front with the pilot ( I would be the only passenger left after the drop off at Wynyard airport). I thought it was magical flying at night. Anyway I have gone off the topic presented and I apologise. Has anyone else had an experience that scared them like near death experiences, near drowning etc. Cheers Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 29 2008, 02:54 Quote (ex member 419 @ May 28 2008, 21:35) Couldn't have been as bad as what Mike and his crew went through on their plane in "Five Miles Out"... What wasn't ??... Bassman losing his mum or the woman drowning, are you following this thread ex member. -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: May 29 2008, 05:07 I don't love you But I'm lost Thinking of you And the ghosts Of so many special moments That passed so quickly at the time And now they come and track me down And echo round and round and round And time goes quickly Or disappears completely And I feel like I fade away Like drowning I don't need you But it's so hard To be without you Though you're not far away I censor my emotions And tell myself to bide my time But every time you come around You batter my defenses down But so gently Like some sweet hypnosis And the world just slips away I'm drowning It's dark My heart is pounding I'm sinking down Into a pool of passion There's laughter as I drown Like so many lost before me Damned by lust and gone to hell And then I look into your eyes And something melts I shake inside And cool water Washes me all over Washes me away And still I'm drowning Some lyrics there to a song by Joe Jackson entitled Drowning.Which is`nt really about drowning at all of course but I thought it might illustrate some of my thoughts on The Ninth Wave.Because in my opinion whether the character of the story is seen to survive or not in the end.My take on it has always been that this is so much more than a story of a woman lost at sea.Imo it`s probably best not to take some of Kate`s metaphors quite so literaly to the story I feel.The opening track itself for instance I always thought was a referance to drug use in some ways..."If they find me racing white horses they`ll not take me for a buoy."..."Like poppies heavy with seed They take me deeper and deeper" Also during the track Waking The Witch why do we hear.."Get out of the waves..Get out of the water?"..You know almost as if the character could get out of the "water" at any given moment if they truly desired too..I guess it depends how you`d maybe translate Kate`s watery metaphors at this point.But why all the guilt here?..I always felt this was more than just a deep seated concern with one` s soul possibly passing over to the other side?   In my view a lot of the out of body type metaphors and the characters lack of consciousness throughout the story.Seem to relate to someone wishing to escape society to me.Yet at the very same time there`s a part of the character crying out for help if you will.I`m not saying that could be specificaly related to drug use though,as I actually feel that`s simply another metaphor in itself.I think the crux of the piece centres more around personality traits and human fragility myself.As well as a longing for a more human kind of connection somehow.Again though as I mentioned earlier it`s very open to interpratation undoubtably.I`ve even read stuff online that relates the whole side as a kind of morality tale on the whole fabric of modern society almost.I guess maybe I can see some of that looking back now,but it`s not something that crossed my mind before I`ll admit.Either way whether ending in death or not the end to the story offers much to rejoice in my view.. I am falling Like a stone Like a storm Being born again Into the sweet morning fog D` you know what? I love you better now.. So maybe in a way I suppose the character does die..Or sometimes you may have to fall apart a little bit before you can put all the pieces together..Again I must stress that`s purely my own personal feelings about it,and I really liked reading Bassman`s story here as well. Back to top

Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: May 29 2008, 06:25 Interesting interpretation! My simple mind tends to follow a more literal interpretation of things like this. A different point I meant to mention at the start of this thread is that I have the CD of this album which includes bonus tracks. When I was first listening to it I didn't read the sleeve notes and  didn't realise that there was supposed to be this grouping of the tracks as the Ninth Wave. It slowly dawned on me as I listened to the CD that there was a story going on with some of the tracks and I began to mentally group them. I ended up thinking that tracks 6 to 13 were a group i.e. I mentally tagged what turns out to be "The Big Sky (Meteorological Mix)" as a conclusion to what turns out to be "The Ninth Wave"! Even though I now know they are unrelated I still find it satisfying to consider the big sky mix as a part of the piece... -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

Dirk Star Group: Members Posts: 1331 Joined: Sep. 2007 Posted: May 29 2008, 07:25 I only got around to buying the cd version a couple of years ago.Oddly enough since I`ve bought the cd version I`ve probably only listened to it a couple of times so I can`t really remember that Big Sky remix now.I`m actualy looking at the back cover here and to be honest I can`t remember any of this bonus stuff at all so I`ll have to remedy that asap.Anyway looking at the back cover and of course there`s the excerpt from the Tennyson poem "The Holy Grail" here which I must admit I`m also completely unfamiliar with.But it has reminded me that "the ninth wave" is supposed to be the peak of the wave cycle or something if such a thing is to be believed.And that after the ninth wave the cycle begins again I suppose.So yeah definetly a reference to some kind of rebirth there imo or indeed afterlife as well of course. My favourite track from the ninth wave has always been Watching You Without Me.Musicaly I just love everything about it start to finish.And the way Danny Thompson`s bass moves in and out of this track is simply wonderful I think.Along with that whole backwards vocal/refrain part as well..Wow!..And again here lyricaly though this sounds very much like a person who has closed themselves in to me.Like they feel detatched and possibly cold to emotions etc. You watch the clock Move The slow hand I should have been home Hours ago,but I`m not here. So yeah this could be like an out of body/ghostly type scenario but for me the crucial verse comes a little later... Can`t let you know What`s been happening There`s a ghost in our home Just watching you without me.. So were back to the guilt of Waking The Witch here again I feel.But still unable to wholly confess or walk away from it all.Oooh bad Kate,naughty Kate, In your bed....Ooops or maybe not one wonders???...           Back to top

Bassman Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: Feb. 2008 Posted: May 29 2008, 10:20 My fave is "Hello Earth".  It's soooo cinematic.  The arrangement, the orchestra, the otherworldly wailing.  It's a sumptuous recording. Re. the bonus tracks on the remaster.  Does anyone else think "Under The Ivy" is one of the best things she's ever done?  Way too good to be a b-side.  It's the kind of song no one does like her.  A story with only the middle.  We don't know the beginning or the end.  And we're left pondering... By the way Matt, didn't mean to jack your thread with my Mom stuff earlier.  Was just relevant for me in this context. Back to top

Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: May 29 2008, 10:31 Quote (Bassman @ May 29 2008, 15:20) By the way Matt, didn't mean to jack your thread with my Mom stuff earlier.  Was just relevant for me in this context. What? I thought it was highly relevant and appropriate in this thread! I just couldn't think how to contribute to a response at the time. The Ninth Wave is a powerful piece on its own, I can hardly imagine how much more potent it could become given strong personal circumstances when listening to it. Great that listening to it helped you at that time. -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

Tayniee Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: April 2008 Posted: May 29 2008, 12:09 Quote (Dirk Star @ May 29 2008, 05:07) So maybe in a way I suppose the character does die..Or sometimes you may have to fall apart a little bit before you can put all the pieces together.... Dirk Star, I like your take on the psychological journey that runs alongside the 'under ice' story. This is my take on the process; There is a childlike quality to this woman who has been avoiding facing up to herself. She needs to basically fly the nest and become an individual but she seems held back or controlled and dependent. First she has to face the demons, insecurities, and self doubt. The demons do feel particularly condemning, shaming and controlling, possibly signifying past abuse and control. She cannot breath and is drowning in this situation, the compulsions and addictions no longer keep at bay what she needs to wake up to.  It's like she is in bondage to her attachments and has to break these ties, and get out of the water, as her inner voice tells her, before she can discover herself. It's a wrench and scary, and she feels like she's dying or dead, but eventually she endures the struggle, deals with herself, and becomes the independent woman. She has learnt to love and accept herself now, and consequently can love others 'better.' .......'being born again' .... -------------- As we all know, endings are just beginnings. Back to top

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