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DavidB Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 08:09

Quote (christopher @ April 25 2003, 23:46)
What is wrong with you lot????  ARE YOU ALL MAD????  The video is brilliant!!!! :)  

Christopher


Well, dude, if you REALLY like "this"....then, it´s impossible to add something more....
How sad....
Pfffff.....
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theweightless Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 09:02

i really don't understand you people..every time there's something new coming from Mike (music, photos, pictures or videos or whatever) always the same whine, cheap video, cheap sound and so on..i'm wondering why do you bother, i don't see the point..people should appreciate the things he gives us

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dkaycom Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 09:36

Quote (theweightless @ April 28 2003, 15:02)
i really don't understand you people..every time there's something new coming from Mike (music, photos, pictures or videos or whatever) always the same whine, cheap video, cheap sound and so on..i'm wondering why do you bother, i don't see the point..people should appreciate the things he gives us

possibly because there are some people (including me) who simply don't like most of the stuff Mike gives/gave away to the world in the last years.
appreciate, sure - but I don't have to like it.....


Later,


dkay


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TOBY Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 13:13

The Weightless.- Almost all the debate that happens on these pages centers around the quality of Mike's work, whether its good or bad, whether or not he's as popular as he could be, whether he could be hugely popular again or indeed deserves to be hugely popular again. We all apreciate Mike's an artist and we all apreciate what he does but that doesn't mean to say we can't question what he does, despite what some fans may feel. There has been I think a rather unhealthy attitude amongst some fans to come down heavily on other fans who do critisise Mike. I'm fully aware that people can be overly critical, indeed I sometimes feel I'm being overly critical but at the same time it's annoying to see things that you feel could be so good being done badly. That video is a prime example, I think it's a load of unimaginative cheaply done crap that could easily be brilliant and if it were brilliant I'm sure he'd bennefit from it in all sorts of ways, I wouldn't slag him off for one.  
We've seen a lot of strong opinions (and we will do again I'm sure) regarding the new TB and reason those opinions and debates have been almost vicious at times is indicative of how passionately people love, or once loved Mike's work and they can't stand to see him produce crap and generaly compromised music, especially where TB is concerned. Debates around art are alway's difficult because it's alway's subjective up to a point, it's in the eye of the beholder and so forth. But there comes a point where it becomes less subjective and starts becoming fact, and that's the point people always have problems dealing with.

So in the end it's OK to criticize Mike if that's what you feel he deserves, remember most of us heap praise on him aswell so it's not all negative.
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DavidB Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 13:32

Quote (theweightless @ April 28 2003, 09:02)
i really don't understand you people....people should appreciate the things he gives us

No, my friend, that´s not the way it works.

We do not have to acept / like EVERY work our beloved artists launch. Why should I????
We like some artists and his music for some reasons, and dislike others for some reasons and/ or tastes as well. You can like an artist, and dislike one of his records, or two, or...so what?

Why should we acept as a joy a piece or music, just because it comes from Oldfield or any other? Is it serius? Is that fair? Please, has it sense?

If something is not good for anyone (i.e for me) I can have my own criterium, right? And its not based on "Who made it? Oldfield? Yep. I did´nt heard it, but gimme; is good, It must be a masterpiece, it must be good for sure, gimme, gimme...I´ll buy every copy!" ...???

I  think (yeah, again me) that Olfield can do it a lot better, and do a better project rather than this one, even more clear if is going to be like this (MIDI bass, dance versions, etc)...I dont like this new work...So what? Am I a traitor? Do you want my head in a bag? ???

Being a Oldfiled fan, must I acept and profess loyalty to every big *idea* he has? I'll be banned if I´m not doing that? Am I out of the circle? I´m not a real fan, then?
C´amon, guys....is this a sect?

At least I do not think is good only because Oldfield made it. Its ridiculous....

Regards to all.
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theweightless Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 13:55

DavidB..i did not say everyone should like..said should appreciate, there's a difference, at least the way i think..well that's then just my opinion that people should appreciate the effort he makes

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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 14:11

I think that, for one thing, Mike and the producers of the video have to be seen as very separate here. Mike seems to approach things like this from a different view to someone like Peter Gabriel, who appears to be quite keen to have music and video (and booklet artwork, and website) to form a complete package. Mike too appears to like the complete package idea, but his way of doing it is via Music VR, producing his own visuals rather than having someone else take control of them. He's more than once indicated that he isn't really interested in the marketing side - if the record company want a video, they can go and make a video, as long as they don't expect much from him towards it.
I don't think this is the first time that one of his videos has been something less than the most superb example of the art of music video (how many videos actually are?).

I'd personally much rather see something positive come out of the nagativity which seems to be collecting up at the moment - it would be lovely if, instead of hearing "This is rubbish, I want Mike to make something better" we heard more "I don't like what Mike's doing, so I've created something better myself". I think it's very easy to fire off criticism, and it's important that it's there to be heard, but it so far doesn't seem to be doing much good - despite years of complaining, Mike's second Amarok is yet to come. Whether it will depends on what he feels like doing, so I think if people want to hear anything specific, they'll be much better off creating it themselves (which if you ask me, would be a lot more fun than sitting around getting upset about what Mike's doing).

How's about we start off by seeing what people out there can really do with desktop video editing software - if anyone can create a really breathtaking video to accompany some of Mike's music (I would say the Introduction single, but I guess most people don't have that yet...), perhaps we can see about bringing it to his attention.
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 14:52

Good show Korgscrew!!! Ow, by the way, I did produce this video with Gimme back in it. Still have to show it to you people. :)

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TOBY Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 15:19

I'd be totally up for that, good idea Korgscrew but I'll need to save a bit more to buy that powerfull Mac, someday soon though. Personaly I'd like to be given a shot at doing one of his album covers, I studied fine art photography many moons ago, I reckon I could do him something pretty different.

On the subject of criticizing Mike though I don't feel in anyway that just because I can't do it better than him doesn't mean to say I can't constructively criticize him (and I know thats not what's inferred by korgscrew) if I genuinely feel there's no excuse for something being badly done. The constant analysis of Mike and his career is presumably while we're all chatting here anyway.
As somebody who works in the art world professionally I do hate a lot of critcism because a lot of it's unconstructive, there's the old saying 'those who can do and those who can't critcize' and it's quite true up to a point because it's easier to be negative than to be positive, at least for some people, usually professional critics who find it sickeningly fun to knock people down.
A career as diverse and yes eratic as Mike's is alway's going to bring strong opinions, indeed I very much doubt there's any other musician in the world who has brought together so many fans who have such differing opinions with regarding his music as MO, I see that as asmuch a stength as weakness, but it's neverless than interesting.

ps If I thought Mike in any way gave a shit about my opinion I'd write to him tomorrow and ask for Amarok 2 or at least tell him to start playing to his strenghts for a change, actually I'd prefer a Guitars 2 but this time with him composing and playing the guitar as well as I know he can do.
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Hendrik Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 16:32

@ theweightless, and everyone else who asking

It´s just because we are all waiting for something that bounces us from our chairs again !
Something REALLY good and new. No reediting, repeating harmonics (tr3sLunas), fart synth guitar sax (T3L again), badly putted together and short songs (guitars), experinments (TMB), undelivered promises ( Single of ART IN HEAVEN 2000, bringing out hoover sections, the outtakes form the phonecall with John Cleese) and for single especially no dull remixings from dull DJs or none remixes at all, let us hear more from him that didn´t fit on the Albums.

That was a time when f.ex. Shine, Shadow on the wall etc. came ot with 12mix extended, more guitars in between or another phrase (strophe ?, egal). Today you will find 5 - 10 mixes of the same song on one disk that are hardly to recognise and really hard to listen to without spitting out what you´ve eaten hours ago, I hate that and you can´t take away that rubbish mixing because everyone is doing this. I REALLY HATE THAT.

But don´t let me come off my line here. What I first ment, that "IN THE OLD DAYS" ( hahaha,good old days?!? ) there was a straight line with Ommadawn, Hergest ridge and Incantation as unoff. follow ups to TB. After that, influenced By R.Branson, the first big dissapointment (for me rather a shock) came out with Platinium followed up by QE2, the sort of tiny little naps, that was rather wildly putted together with no feeling of his thoughts and his mind ( mmmhh. maybe yes, platinium sounds like his psycical treatment  ;) ). At that point I didn´t give up on him and even I do NOT now !!!! , but I thought thats enough with his gorgeous longplayers for him his resources are lost !
Discovery, Crises, Five Miles out, Islands, Earth Moving and MICHAEL O.´s Heaven Open came out and I inured to it, loving the popular bits of these except for the to often and everywhere played hit as there is Moonlight shadow and To France! And I loved the long instrumentals of course which showed that he is still able to do more complex ones.
and then a Bouncer came on with AMAROK ! As I fist listened to it i Thought it was the worst he ever did, but on the second, I REALLY love it. Reading between the lines and listening to the suberp played 51 Instruments ( Okay, forget the footsteps and toolbox and so on) on the 60 minutes Opus (pitty that it wasn´t divided in parts that I could play directly), it shows nearly exactcly my day with this disturbings, phone rings, angry and calm Parts of the day and taking a resumee of it. As it was for him living these days with all the trouble esp. with R. Branson.
Tubular Bells 2 came out and I loved it that time, but now I agree with some of you the sound is dated (TB1 is still timeless, with all the faults in it you can still easily put it on and listen to it, as for ex. Classic Star wars Ep 4-6, if you watch it you can´t imagine it was done over 20 years ago. for the time the sets were amazing compared to starship galaktica, but thats another topic, not for a M.O. board).

A real great Bouncer again with TSODE. Calming well organised big Projekt cutted in small parts but they were all continuous with no cuts as Tr3s Lunas did on every Song. Bringing you to one part and another without pausing. I still listen to it these days.

After that Voyager came out! At that time I liked it because it was the time i went to the german marines and that fitted to it, a big Voyage, and now as I write this it reminds me of that time. BUT, today as i listen to it, I find it is cheap. Using mostly the old and known trad. arrangements putted up with his guitar to make it more modern, except Mount St. Michelle is again wonderfull using an orchestra. He could have done more with the celtic style which he always have playing instruments from the beginning. Shaped signs (listen to the excerpts on www.oldfield.de) is a good example for playing new songs with an oldfield style in that celtic terrain.

With TB3, at first I was very sceptical, listening to the excerpt firstly found on the last "Best of". I Didn´t like that Bass drums, it sounded too much techno. But I loved and love now the whole part. Especially related to the wet live gig on the horse guards (9th row middle, yuhuu!;).
Nowadays I accustom to that bass drum *shit*, if it is one of the good more clomplex song. TB3 fits that.

And that´s the point where the things became dissapointing.
Beginning with the bass drummed TB3, guitars came out. Everybodys first thoughts : OK, great, finally he gets to his roots and plays rock tunes and gives us his gorgeous guitar playing style, but that were only thoughts. These songs are wildly putted together, and too short with no relation to the titles. Great to experiment with his MIDI system but mmmmhhh.....! It was made to fast only to promote his european tour, to have to play not only TB3.

The biggest disapointment was TMB !!! Everybody has to agree with it that it was a faild Album from the cover to the music.
Only 2 songs remarked it that Mike Oldfield did it. Peace on Earth and another song ( I can´t remember the title). Finaly TMB at the end: a pure club based sound with awfull bass drums and ONE Bang on a bell which sample wasn´t as good as the old ones. I think we all awaited a Masterpiece of Music with his instrumental playing no other MIDI,Synth experiment.
It is an album for showing other musical styles but it doesn´t fit for a Millenium change, cause it failed to show the aeras shown or guessed on the sleeve.

The last album Tr3s Lunas:
From first news till last I couldn´t wait for further infos soundbits and interviews and so on. the more I (we) heard, the more I could imagine how this could be. Building the complete from a soundfile in my Mind. Playing the demo, with the music I thoght this could be a worthy sequal to TSODE.
As it came out it got real  what Mike said in the promotion :" The music in the game doesn´t fit on the album, I don´t know why that is !". These are different ones. good ones, if they weren´t repeated everytime. Best Example for me is SIRIUS.
The snippet I heard in the promotion was great! But in that score he released playing that, then disturbed with a pause with dolphin sonund, playing the same, again dolphin sond and than it goes further. On that one I would have build up on that
snippet going further and further. Is this repeating the art of Chill-out ??? I Hate this word.
It could have been a Sequal if he doesnt pause on each track, if it would be flowing which we excepted like playing the game, from one area to another.
I rather listen to the MVR Songs as the Album, cause this shows Mike Oldfield. Look at the sword game, or the firebirds (my favourite), the sound after completing the sprites, why isn´t it on the Album, why doesn´t it fit ??? Because it doesn´t belong to this chill-out fashion rubbish???????

After that the video, and the song that I can´t accustom to To be free. First, the same "destroyment" on the album, same way as man in the rain on TB3. Can someone tell me the reason and why that´s important to put it these, for the projekt disturbing, parts in the middle of the Album ?
2. What does this video mean , excepting to show us the MVR World bits.
3. Where are the guitars, at least for the single he could have done more than put more bass on and letting it sound faster?
4. Where is Mike ???

TB the RERECORDING, I am really looking foreward to it. It is refreshing to here the original in a more voluminous, clear view, even when the bass sounds seems to be too much synth, which I dont belive, because of the fast tremolo which you can´t do manually on a keyboard pad !
It doesen´t bother me anymore if this is another bell because he told us he would do it shortly before TL came out and let him do it cause it´s not a redesign, or another sequal!

What bothers me is again the video. Good that it shows the bell, but these crazy effects in it with mirroring and splitting up the screen. And here too, where is Mike ??? Remember Sentinel, sitting in a face or in front of the piano.
Or in another Part Pictures in the dark, shiny.
And musically, its again the above written repeating.
There are two parts with a slightly difference repeating on and on. An added Guitar as I wrote in an older reply would have been usefull.

Especially here in germany we are frustrated because WEA isn´t releasing any single here from TL and continuing this with TB RR.

What I forgot to write is reguarding to this topic and as you have read out of these lines , I don´t get rid of the feeling that Mike´s music beginning from Voyager is getting easier with less affort. putting sequenced tunes together, letting them repeat some times, playing some guitar clean but not that clomplex as years ago, and thats what we are waiting on . We surely don´t want a sequal to Amarok but a Piece like this one, brilliant with affort which you can hear. Let him again step into Aladin´s cave and hope he discovers more than a guitar and a keybord und computers with samples.
As I said above, we wish to hear somthing suprisingly new that bounces us from our chairs.

Let´s see what´s next !!!

@ Christopher
His appearence is shiny video is great, I mean the guitar solo with the generated figures, which you all have to admit was the newest hippest technologie for making screen effects at that time. That it looks disguasting today is normal !!!

Sorry for this long reply, I know that this would have fitted in other Board topics but I only wanted to answer .

Hendrik
:D
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theweightless Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 16:50

Korgscrew explained the criticism thing better..and as TOBY added..constructively criticize..that would be and is great..but that's not nearly always the case and those messages that don't have anything constructive were the object of my words

(still have to remark..i write these messages with the help of dictionary and it don't always go right)

up there seems to be something constructive from Hendrik  :D


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dkaycom Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 17:10

Quote (Hendrik @ April 28 2003, 22:32)
The biggest disapointment was TMB !!! Everybody has to agree with it that it was a faild Album from the cover to the music.

well, I couldn't agree more about the "bounce out of the chairs"-thingie, but well, I don't' have to agree that TMB failed in any way, as I don't have to agree with anything written/said here or elsewhere.

the thing about music (or: arts in general) is that everyone has his own kind of view, his own kind of style he likes or dislikes and he doesn't have to be able to "do it better" to say that he likes or dislikes what he sees/listens....


just my two cents,


dkay


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Hendrik Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 18:44

Okay, okay, after 2 Years of reading this forum I have learned that someone may get problems telling them what to do or not to do, cause many readers are giving these phrases too much weight, this just came out of my fingers. (DKAY understands me: Manche legen es auf die goldene Waage ! :)  ).

Sorry if I offended someone!  :/

What I meant is that this Album lost this actual meaning !
I wouldn´t call any album with one bell sound  at the end a ...Bells. Jarre did the Bell sounds on hiss Mill. Album too, he could call it Jarre´s Bells. Thats only an example.
I can´t get any relation to the older bells, or its purpose, if there was.
These tracks show me other styles and places but don´t get the feeling what he wanted to show us, and I don´t know why!
Maybe because some tracks are too flat as Mastermind is a great James Bond track. Don´t get me wrong, I like this album but as a Millenium Concept it is a little too easy for me.
The kicks, love and beauty is missing, it is a rush recording, maybe he could have made it better if he had more time.
There were 3 Albums in 2 Years, maybe thats the reason!

I have read much critics on that Album and I am happy that I am not the only one with them.

To my extreme long text:
As I wrote it from album to album with all MY point of view I just wanted to make clear, and I hope it does, what was happening and what may cause the critisism, with changing on singles, videos, album. Waiting for the new masterpiece.

One thing I would want to ask esp. the moderator or the webmaster is:

Is there a possibility to make a poll showing those guys at WEA that would really like to have a Video compilation on DVD with every videos (wouldn´t that be fantastic?) or "The Essential" and "Wind Chimes" on DVD.
If not is there anyone closer in contact with Mr. Oldfield then we are to tell him we would love to have that on this wonderfull easy format?
I can think of COPYRIGHT problems with virgin but would this be rally an obstacle?

Greetings

Hendrik
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: April 28 2003, 22:46

Well, I have to say that for me at least, the video is the lease important part of the project. I buy music to listen to it, not to watch a video that someone made for it, and I much prefer to watch live concerts. I've watched about two MO videos in my life, once each, and at very poor quality, and I agree that I have seen better. I just don't feel that they are very important, especially in a piece such as Tubular Bells.

We also seem to be going off topic here a bit with discussion about Mike's carreer, recent albums ect. I agree that no-one has to like everything that Mike does. I don't like Islands, Hergest Ridge and Voyager, those are my albums I don't like. Obviously everyone will have different albums they don't like. What I have a problem with is people who come on here and say that so-and-so album is a piece of crap and anyone who listens to so-and-so album is an idiot and so-and-so album means Mike can't make music and no-one should listen to Mike anymore and I'm ashamed to listen to Mike now and so-and-so album means Mike's an idiot and he should quit music etc. I mean, this is just goint overboard. OK, you don't like this album, but it is really so bad that other people do? I also find it the height of ego that people tell Mike to quit because he is doing albums they personally don't like.


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Mark 1 Offline




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Posted: April 29 2003, 09:50

Well said, Raven.
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Hendrik Offline




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Posted: April 29 2003, 12:22

@ raven

to Mike quitting all his music is the least I would wish !
He has to continue with it.
And maybe soon we will be happily suprised again, I know!

I´ve seen all his vidoes published on the essential and The Wind Chimes, but found out on the Dark Star Convention hours before the horse guards concert and I think one year ago on a Fansite that there were many others also, not putted on tape.
I like these! Not everyone is good but as a collector and someone who see his tape quality is slowly vanishing, I´d love to have all these on a non magnetic resistable Media!



Another cause for critisism I forgot may be the Media itself.
I Mean, nearly evereone using and buying from the Internet an music magazines isn´t surprised anymore with all the small promotions and snippets you can get on there months before it gets released.
You are hearing a sound file and you are willing to know, or guess what that will be in the complete. And with that small snippet you will imagine how this will go on and then you will be badly surprised if it is not so (what i wanted to tell you in my long reply what happened with the song sirius from T3L).
best example now is that he told us to use the old equipment, now many here were badly surprised with the bass on the introduction, which i like and have nothing against it!

in my case at that time untill TSODE was published I only recived the Dark Star magazine, not having any connection to the internet or other news. I was great happily surprised having and listening to it and almost every album was a grand Album at first and many later too. Today with all the information I got and SELF missbuilded songs related to T3L snippets it´s good to have an Album (doesn´t mind which one) but it´s not what I imagined. I am trying to avoid concluding and building from one or some sound files.

As I wrote replies before, I can´t wait for the 26th of May, but i am frustrated knowing that "The introduction" won´t be released here in germany, and the fact that I can´t hear TB RR (or 2003) on my PC because of the new copy-protection.

Greetings

Hendrik.

P.S.: Also looking foreward to a Video-DVD Poll or petition ! :)
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: April 29 2003, 12:57

I know what you mean with your last bit there Hendrik, I had also thought the TL snippets kind of built up the tracks to something they weren't (for me at least) and with all the MP3's going about long before the album came here in the UK it did spoil the suprise of hearing the album all the way through for the first time. I know it was my choice to download the tracks and I didn't have to but the temptation was to great, I wanted to hear them.

A MO DVD petition went round here a while back presumably to no success. The problem is I just don't think there would be a big enough a market for them to make it worth while for the record companies. On top of that fans have to realise that most video's by Mike are, to put it bluntly, pretty crap even Mike admits most of them are pretty crap so there's not a lot of impetus from his point of view to release them. I agree it's acrying shame that stuff like the Essential live video arn't available for fans to see but again I think from the record companies point of view you are talking about a very small market and so they're not going to be interested.

That 'bonus' (Ha, Ha, HA) DVD 'free' with the TB2003 box set looks like another waisted opertunity on WEA's behalf to do something even remotely interesting, though obviously doing something interesting for Mike is well beyond them, It's a blatant rip off.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 29 2003, 13:43

Quote (Hendrik @ April 29 2003, 17:22)
As I wrote replies before, I can´t wait for the 26th of May, but i am frustrated knowing that "The introduction" won´t be released here in germany, and the fact that I can´t hear TB RR (or 2003) on my PC because of the new copy-protection.

I think the whole copy protection thing is a farce really - it never stops the copyists, but it does stop innocent people who want to listen to the music (on their computers, in the car, or on whatever else the copy protection attacks).

It's certainly not going to stop me listening to them on the computer, and my way around it is to simply do what they want to prevent - make a copy. It may involve going through professional equipment which ignores things like SCMS, or it may involve going the analogue route, but even then, the result will still be a pretty decent copy (a run through a decent D/A convertor and back through an A/D convertor won't do a great deal of audible harm). That's a crazy situation, as I'd not normally copy CDs for any reason.

Most people won't bother, and when they find the CD won't play in their computer, or in the car, where they perhaps usually listen to CDs, they'll just take them back and that'll be a lost sale...and they'll most likely then get a copy of the music from someone who's cracked the copy protection.

They could do a lot better by looking at why people aren't paying for music, and trying to combat the cause rather than the symptom. I don't agree with illegal distribution at all, but neither do I agree to a lot of what the record companies get up to - I think they bring it upon themselves.

As regards to releasing rarities, Mike has been asked in the past, and even agreed to it, but nothing has happened yet. Perhaps some day, things will happen, but it doesn't seem like things happen very quickly with Mike, and I know from experience that sometimes there are things which he agrees to do, and even seems mildly supportive of, but which fall through for one reason or another. People will keep trying and perhaps there'll be a result eventually...

I agree it would be nice to see some more interesting photography related to Mike's albums, both for the cover and the portraits. Again, perhaps some day things will happen...
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christopher Offline




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Posted: April 29 2003, 16:31

HENDRIK

What copy protection on TB2003?  I've not read anywhere that WEA is planning to copy-protect it!  I've seen a few CD's here in the States that are copy-protected... but there has beenb alot of fuss to the record companies about it and so I believe they have somewhat abandonded the idea.  I will be very annoyed if TB2003 is not playable on my PC!

Christopher

PS Would someone explain to me why a Taiwanese CD 2003 rerelease of TB2 is listed as only having 13 tracks instead of 14?  Check out this link http://eil.com/shop/artistlist.asp?artistname=mike-oldfield&page=6
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Hendrik Offline




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Joined: Nov. 1999
Posted: April 29 2003, 17:47

@ Christopher

I don´t know why there are only 13 tracks on that but in case of the copy-protection take a look at the beck cover shown on that link:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcdb....cover=1

source: link from www.oldfield.de
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