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Highlander Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: June 2010 Posted: Sep. 18 2011, 05:29 Quote (Scatterplot @ Sep. 18 2011, 03:45) Not to sound like a defector, but in the last year or so, I only find myself listening to my fav. excerpts or shorter songs by MO. I wish I was one of the young new fans, but it's like after listening since 1973 to MO, I'm burned out(same with many other acts, don't feel bad Mike). I cant see me listening to Incantations in it's entirety(or Ommadawn or Amarok) for a long time. But the Hiawatha part on side 2 and git solo on side 3......hell yeah....twice a year. But that's just me. It's called listening fatique... and it only started with the introduction of digital format. My theory is that it's harder work for the brain to listen to a sample of an analogue sound wave (all digital formats only sample the wave) than to listen to the original analogue signal. Try listening to Ommadawn on vinyl again and I suspect you'll find it difficult not to want to listen to it all!!! Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Sep. 18 2011, 08:03 @ Highlander: well, I suspect that if you listen to the recent Ommadawn vinyl reprint (or any of the other recent reprints) you won't get the same feeling as you get from the original 1975 LP. All of the vinyl reprints use the modern digital remasters (from 2000 onwards), so even if the sound is on vinyl it's still the digital signal. It's the same with all vinyl reprints by all artists.  As I don't have any original issues of albums printed during the 1970s or the 1980s (I only have some ABBA stuff and some Led Zepplin stuff), I don't know whether listening to any vinyl album printed after 2000 is the same thing as listening to the original issues. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

Highlander Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: June 2010 Posted: Sep. 18 2011, 19:04 Quote (Ugo @ Sep. 18 2011, 08:03) @ Highlander: well, I suspect that if you listen to the recent Ommadawn vinyl reprint (or any of the other recent reprints) you won't get the same feeling as you get from the original 1975 LP. All of the vinyl reprints use the modern digital remasters (from 2000 onwards), so even if the sound is on vinyl it's still the digital signal. It's the same with all vinyl reprints by all artists.  As I don't have any original issues of albums printed during the 1970s or the 1980s (I only have some ABBA stuff and some Led Zepplin stuff), I don't know whether listening to any vinyl album printed after 2000 is the same thing as listening to the original issues. You're probably right about that - Another theory is down to the 'loudness wars' - All in all, I wish they would stop messing with the true sound, but I guess that by doing so, they'll push the demand back to live music, which is no bad thing. (glass half full and all that) Back to top

Cavalier (Lost Version) Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: Nov. 2010 Posted: Sep. 20 2011, 10:05 At some point since two weeks after the release date, a copy has found its way on the shelves of my HMV.  At this time I cannot tell you whether it has an amended disc one, but watch this space ( or the Incantations forum - we'll have to give this up some day! ) for a better bank balance. -------------- "Who was that?" "That was Venger - the force of Evil!  I am Dungeon Master - your guide in the realm of Dungeons & Dragons!" Back to top

christopher Group: Members Posts: 270 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Sep. 23 2011, 01:54 This afternoon I went down to my used record shop to find some good vinyl.  America is starting to turn back to vinyl from digital.  CD plants are closing across the States and vinyl plants are having trouble keeping up with demand.  Most artists are putting out vinyl instead of CD.  I find this fascinating, disturbing, and a welcomed change.  If I'm not mistaken this has already been the case in Europe for quite a while!?   With an iPod I find myself too restless... skipping... from one track to the next, when I get bored.  I even do it with Mike's material.   That being said, the reason for this post under Incantations is this,  I found a sealed copy of a New Zealand import pressing of Incantations, from Virgin, in the stack, for 7.99  I went onto find pristine copy's of Discovery(German Import), Ommadawn(Quadrophonic), Airborne(Virgin Promo Edition), Earth Moving, and Qe2.  All of which were 3 dollars.  Under headphones, at the listening station, I played my favorite parts of Incantations, including the now infamous 12:37 and 12:40 area's.  To my delight and joy, the vinyl album sounded more alive and pure than any digital copy I have!!!  I noticed more detail and found it a bit more moving and interesting.  Maybe it's the nostalgia of vinyl or a nice break from overly digitized music, I don't know.  I like what I heard better than the new version of Incantations, fixed or otherwise!   What do you think about vinyl vs digital?  Just curious.  Please be objective and not partial to what you grew up with, as many of you grew up with vinyl.  I grew up on the change over between vinyl and digital.  So, I find myself partial to technology.  However, recently, that attitude is changing. Back to top

Bell Boy Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: June 2009 Posted: Sep. 23 2011, 19:50 Vinyl v Digital.... Ive just bought a turntable 2 weeks ago after a friend showed me the light... I have dug out my MO collection...and its a whole new world.. I re-discovered a sound I had forgot,... CD is flat,harsh and lifeless... Vinyl is warm,dynamic, and such depth..BUT Scratches and static. Its a tough one.... As CD really does murder the sound,especially all the re-mastered versions that squash the life out of the dynamics of the recordings.. I cant believe that we have really gone backwards with sound recording really..Vinyl -CD-Mp3...bizzare.. You would think that with technology that we would have been able to match the sound of vinyl..in the 20 years of CD.. Instead we have gone backwards to Mp3...that kills the recording all for ease of use... I love having to open a vinyl,clean it and take the time to place it on turntable and change side A-B... It makes you realise its there and treat the music with some respect ...as apposed to picking something on an MP3 player,where you are unaware of who,what and when it was made....WE so undervalue music at the mo.. I hate,the scratches and pops and static...nightmare,.... but its closer to the sound of what the artist wanted YOU to hear...cannot be matched at the mo... It was like an old friend that you hadn't seen for a long time, it all made sense..QE2,Platinum..sounded so fresh and alive..Unlike the sterile CD's... ENOUGH of a rant !!!..TRY it for yourselves... Back to top

christopher Group: Members Posts: 270 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Sep. 23 2011, 23:34 Bell Boy, thank you for the analysis  It is well said and I quite agree.  It's very odd that we should go backwards.  I'm finding this in alot of area's outside of music.  I feel fortunate that I don't get any pops or crackles with my turn-table.  It's very solid and pure  I love the bit about how you have to acknowledge that the music is actually there rather than putting on an iPod and soon it becomes background noise.  Brilliantly said! Back to top

pauken Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: May 2005 Posted: Sep. 26 2011, 14:40 Quote (Bell Boy @ Sep. 23 2011, 19:50) Vinyl v Digital.... CD is flat,harsh and lifeless... Vinyl is warm,dynamic, and such depth..BUT Scratches and static. Ooh! We should start another topic about this really. I agree, cheap and nasty CD players can sound cheap and nasty but a decent CD player with a suitably good amplifier and speakers can sound absolutely wonderful provided the CD itself is well mastered. A well mastered LP played with a decent cartridge and turntable etc. can also sound absolutely amazing. There's a lot of misty-eyed nostalgia attached to vinyl and I am prone to it myself, I LOVE LPs and everything to do with old analogue music playback - I recently bought a Revox A77 off eBay to record my spotify playlists on to. Mad? Probably. I don't think CD remasters murder the sound, I think possibly the murdering is being done before the CDs or vinyl get made perhaps... I played the remastered Incantations LPs recently and loved them (glitches aside) but I loved the CD just as much but I have a really nice system for listening to CDs on. I do agree that the general trend to package music in a convenient consumable way has led to a real compromise in quality but it comes down to the consumer. Old farts like us want to engage with the music we buy and we sit around with our LPs and remastered CD box sets of music from 30 years ago trying to recapture that excitement we felt when we bought the first LP and that's all we listened to for weeks at a time. The kidz however just want to grab some tunes for their phone or iPod and listen to it in the background while they're out and about looting shops and kicking old ladies in the street. Perhaps I'm generalising too much... However! I love Spotify. I really like being able to search for music and just listen to it there and then, it's amazing really. But it's not the same as how it was when I grew up. But then neither are a lot of things, it's important to keep perspective. Nor sure if I had a point to any of this but there you go. Back to top

equinoxe Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: Aug. 2011 Posted: Sep. 26 2011, 15:50 Agree. A good hi-end cd-player can reproduce sound in the best possible way. Vinyls has that "warm" touch, but honestly i really prefer a cd, because of all those crackles on the vinyl. Sorry, but i never reconcile with this attribute of the vinyls. I prefer the sound exactly like it was intended to listen to. Crackles are additional side effect that i just can't stand. It's not a part of the original (intended) sound, so it's not perfect. CD has, ofcourse compressed digital sound (as any digital format has), but those imperfections in sound is just not audible; it's perfect to me. Anybody hear in a different way, so that's way everyone likes something different. BTW mp3 format in any compresion doesn't exist to me as a serious audio format. FLAC (or other uncompressed formats) ofcourse yes, but only with a hi-end audio card connected to a hi-end amplifier. Back to top

christopher Group: Members Posts: 270 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Sep. 27 2011, 01:30 Thanks for the feedback  I have a really high end system for my main system, and other, around the house, type of systems (Bose Home Audio) and various outlets of CD players, Blu-Rays, and the like, not to mention just about every Apple product that is available.  Something is missing in all of this digital music... warmth.  Maybe the small crackles are warm like a fire, in my mind... who knows.  Every record that I have put on doesn't contain any crackles.  Maybe I'm fortunate in this aspect.  As someone on this forum pointed out, about twelve years ago... listening to Tubular Bells 2 on vinyl vs CD, more hidden items were found in the vinyl and it had more life than the CD.  Not a direct quote, but something to that effect.  Clearly, there must be something other than nostalgia for people int he States, because more and more vinyls are being pressed of new releases and record players are showing up everywhere among students and professionals of all ages  Here's hoping the younger generations, and I'm in my early 30's, learn what it is to appreciate music as more than just a grab and go item! Back to top

Bell Boy Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: June 2009 Posted: Sep. 27 2011, 04:34 I know were off topic now...but its interesting... Ive been making music for 20 years professionally and vinyl is the closest to"what the artist originally intended" (-scratches). Even Cd is a massive compromise...as most studios record at 24bit (sorry for the tech talk)..then all CD are 16 bit. The difference when you listen to what happens when you convert from 24 to 16 is huge. The sound becomes thin and not as open.This is all before we murder it to MP3. The answer is NOT vinyl..the answer is a more high end music storage device like BLU RAY..( or direct delivery via broadband) BUT !!!!! The public will not stomach another format rip off and re buy. 20 years Cds have been with us...so we are all using an OLD technology... and realising that its flawed. Music has become thow away, and not valued by a generation..so there is no incentive to give better quality.. I hope that with super fast broadband, that it will allow delivery of the actual sound files that are made in the recording studio, direct to the buyer... this will finally match what the artist heard to what the buyer gets..... Back to top

equinoxe Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: Aug. 2011 Posted: Sep. 27 2011, 10:11 I think CD format is best option when we will take quality, availability and a costs aspects together. I know, ofcourse, the future lies in higher resolution formats like blu-ray or 24bit FLAC, but hey, for the most people the sound of the CD is just perfect. There is a small number of people, who has that possibility to distinguish 24bit sound from 16bit. 16bit's is just far enough. Well, the truth is that mp3 with 320kbps or even 256kbps is perfect to most people, so i really don't think we need 24bit music. There isn't any sense to intruduce blu-ray to the music industry as a new audio format (but i will happen some day, i think). Back to top

Highlander Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: June 2010 Posted: Oct. 04 2011, 04:31 Quote (Bell Boy @ Sep. 27 2011, 04:34) I know were off topic now...but its interesting... Ive been making music for 20 years professionally and vinyl is the closest to"what the artist originally intended" (-scratches). Even Cd is a massive compromise...as most studios record at 24bit (sorry for the tech talk)..then all CD are 16 bit. The difference when you listen to what happens when you convert from 24 to 16 is huge. The sound becomes thin and not as open.This is all before we murder it to MP3. The answer is NOT vinyl..the answer is a more high end music storage device like BLU RAY..( or direct delivery via broadband) BUT !!!!! The public will not stomach another format rip off and re buy. 20 years Cds have been with us...so we are all using an OLD technology... and realising that its flawed. Music has become thow away, and not valued by a generation..so there is no incentive to give better quality.. I hope that with super fast broadband, that it will allow delivery of the actual sound files that are made in the recording studio, direct to the buyer... this will finally match what the artist heard to what the buyer gets..... I think you're spot on with that - but I'll miss the physical format, but with the information available on the internet together with top quality sound, the future isn't as bleak as I once feared for the quality of recordings. Back to top

MikeArnold Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: Oct. 10 2011, 01:03 I live in Canada, and this latest Incantations release has not appeared in any of the record stores in Vancouver to date.  I eventually decided to order the deluxe edition from the Universal store.  Excellent delivery service. My copy was received very quickly and in good order. The cd's are good quality, with no noticeable skips, flaws or other detrimental issues. The real attraction with this package is Disc Two.  The remixes and extra material are really good, in particular Wrekorder Wrondo (finally on CD! and the two Diana mixes.  Though, Canon for Two Viraphones and Hiawatha are both a regrettable waste of space and add nothing of substance over and above Disc One. As for Disc One, the tracks come across as clear. The original intent and spirit of the music has been left intact.  I know that attempts have been made in the past to link Guilty with Incantations in some shape or form.  But, it just doesn't gel with me.  Guilty is far more of a precursor to Platinum than a parting shot at Incantations. So, it's bit weird to have this disco instrumental hanging on to the end of one of the best, most atmospheric pieces of music Mike ever put together. Disc 3 is fine enough. But, with the live version of Incantations included, it could well make purchasing an "Exposed" remaster (if it ever happens) a bit of a waste of time. All in all, this is a pretty good reissue, particularly Disc 2, with Mike at the height of his game. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 10 2011, 07:21 Quote (MikeArnold @ Oct. 10 2011, 07:03) I live in Canada, and this latest Incantations release has not appeared in any of the record stores in Vancouver to date.  I eventually decided to order the deluxe edition from the Universal store.  Excellent delivery service. My copy was received very quickly and in good order. The cd's are good quality, with no noticeable skips, flaws or other detrimental issues. The real attraction with this package is Disc Two.  The remixes and extra material are really good, in particular Wrekorder Wrondo (finally on CD! and the two Diana mixes.  Though, Canon for Two Viraphones and Hiawatha are both a regrettable waste of space and add nothing of substance over and above Disc One. As for Disc One, the tracks come across as clear. The original intent and spirit of the music has been left intact.  I know that attempts have been made in the past to link Guilty with Incantations in some shape or form.  But, it just doesn't gel with me.  Guilty is far more of a precursor to Platinum than a parting shot at Incantations. So, it's bit weird to have this disco instrumental hanging on to the end of one of the best, most atmospheric pieces of music Mike ever put together. Disc 3 is fine enough. But, with the live version of Incantations included, it could well make purchasing an "Exposed" remaster (if it ever happens) a bit of a waste of time. All in all, this is a pretty good reissue, particularly Disc 2, with Mike at the height of his game. @ MikeArnold: "Wrekorder Wrondo" is taken straight from the Take 4 vinyl release - you can hear clicks on it. About "Guilty", I always thoughts that, it spite of the disco beat, it's linked much more with Incantations than with anything Mike released after it, because it shares the same chords. Listen to the very beginning of "Guilty": it's the very same melody as the one found at the very beginning of Incantations. The bulk of Inc. and "Guilty" were, as far as I recall, conceived together. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

equinoxe Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: Aug. 2011 Posted: Oct. 10 2011, 12:06 'Wrekorder Wrondo' is taken from 'Take 4' ep, but i doubt they just used a vinyl as a source. I think, as a professionals, they for sure took the original master tapes and remastered it or something, because it would be very unprofessional and unfair way to get a vinyl, rip audio and put it on the deluxe edition without any improvements. Back to top

Ugo Group: Members Posts: 5495 Joined: April 2000 Posted: Oct. 10 2011, 17:56 @ equinoxe: no, they took the vinyl. Trust me. Do you want evidence? Put the CD track on, crank up the volume and you will hear the needle going into the groove, even if it's not a Madonna record , and then a click. If it was a tape you would hear no clicks, would you? It's not unprofessional at all to use vinyl as your source if you don't have the original master any longer, which is most probably the case here. What they did was just take the vinyl, digitalize it and remaster the digitalized version. The same thing was done with the original 1974 mix of HR, on the Deluxe Edition of that. Do you want evidence? Put Part 2 on from the second CD, crank up the volume and at 0:03 you will hear a click. As I said, there are no clicks on tape. -------------- Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian Back to top

stpaul Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: Feb. 2005 Posted: Oct. 10 2011, 20:06 @ugo If you are right, they have another vinyl version, because Mike's counting is on none of the vinyl versions that were released. Back to top

captain cavern Group: Members Posts: 267 Joined: Oct. 2003 Posted: Oct. 10 2011, 21:38 Wrekorder Wrondo : This click is was on the original recording. It's not due to a vinyl rip. There is other background sounds during Mike's counting > finger snapping ... HR Part 2 : I think this click was also on the original master. Take the original mix included on Boxed CD, you can hear the same click. Back to top

equinoxe Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: Aug. 2011 Posted: Oct. 11 2011, 03:22 @Ugo I really don't think so, the clicks on that track can be considered as a proof, they used vinyl as a source. Track has a different intro, and all has a lot better, clearer sound to that from vinyl, even when this was de-clicked and noise reducted. When you rip off a vinyl and than use a noise reduction and declicking on it, you always will get some sort of dry, distorted sound. Higher noise reduction level - more distorted and dry sound you will have, because noise reduction cut the particular frequencies, making the sound unnatural. The sound on the deluxe edition is wet, detailed even on high volume levels by the headphones it's very creasp and fresh. One or two cliks doesn't mean it was ripped off from vinyl. It could already has been on the master tape. Maybe those tapes were in very bad shape. Back to top

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