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Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: June 27 2007, 08:35 Reading the discussion in the topic about "Mike's mental state" while writing / recording Incantations got me curious to try and find out which parts of the album were actually written before and after the Exegesis course, respectively; not so much from a psychological but from a musicological viewpoint. First, I'll repeat what was said in that topic: Quote (larstangmark @ Feb. 01 2006, 20:02) From what I've read Mike only wrote part 1 and 4 after his exegesis course. I think you can hear a difference. Parts 2 and 3 are more dreamlike. Parts 1 and 4 are more bouncy and energetic. There's almost a disco-like rhythm towards the end of part 1. At the time Mike said his favorite part of Incantations was the beginning of part 4 - and there's almost a jazz/fusion influence there. Quote (hiawatha @ Feb. 01 2006, 20:26) I think it might be mixed. Only the middle of part 3 can be described as "dreamlike" to me. Sections of part 4 are, I think, the oldest parts of the album. Quote (myself @ June 25 2007, 15:00) Wow, this is very interesting. After listening to the album yesterday I felt I had finally figured out that parts 1 and 2 would have to be the pre-exegesis parts, and parts 3 and 4 the post-exegesis ones. I think it's striking how much a lot of those latter parts sound like QE2 (not so much Platinum, interestingly); whereas the former parts sound more similar to Hergest Ridge and, to a lesser degree, Ommadawn, than to any of his other albums IMO. Right, so I've listened to the whole album again, and the conclusion I came to is that, most likely, - all of parts 1 and 2 are pre-exegesis except the "Diana, Luna, Lucina" section of part 1 (8:57 to 15:12), and - all of parts 3 and 4 are post-exegesis. I'm basing these assumptions mostly on whether I find the sections in question to be more similar in feel to Hergest Ridge and Ommadawn, or to Platinum and QE2. I feel the presence of a drum kit, for one thing, is a good indicator of a post-exegesis section, but not the only one. I also feel the way the bass is handled is different in the (assumed) post-exegesis parts; for example, the "Ode to Cynthia" section of part 4 (19:21 to end) is of course a reprise of the "Song of Hiawatha" section of part 2 (10:37 to end), but the bass playing in the latter is much more reminiscent of Mike's post-Incantations work. Also, many sonic textures appear for the first time in Mike's work in the two latter parts, for example 9:51 to 11:40 in part 4 sounds like something right out of Platinum, and other sections are very reminiscent of QE2. I could give more examples but this has gotten pretty long already. Of course I could be completely wrong, and only Mike himself could provide the definitive answer here. I'd be interested in hearing, for example, which sections of part 4 Hiawatha thinks are the oldest parts of the album? And also other people's opinions of course. I'll repeat that I'm not so much interested in the psychology of "Mike's mental state" here, but rather in a stylisic analysis. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1763 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: June 27 2007, 10:25 Quote from a 1979 interview: "I must explain," he said, "that the most important parts are the flute solo and the vibraphone solo, and the guitar solo which is next to the vibraphone part. The rest of it is a load of rubbish." As I see it, this indicates that Part 1 (which is what the "flute solo" must refer to) and part 4 are the parts that Mike was happy with post-exegesis. And I think that makes it likely that these are the parts he recorded post-exegesis. This has been discussed before, and I know some disagree with me. The interview is here: http://64.233.183.104/search?....1&gl=se -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

nushky Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: Nov. 2005 Posted: June 27 2007, 11:12 To sum up brieflly from what I remember from his autobiography, he explains that finishing Incantations after the exegesis seminar was really a hassle as he didn't feel like working on it (I don't remember why though, will have to look at the book). So, maybe motivation was low after the seminar, or it was mainly motivation to finish the album, so maybe the best or more brillant work may not have been done after this seminar. This is only an assumption of course. Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: June 28 2007, 16:10 Quote (larstangmark @ June 27 2007, 16:25) The interview is here: http://64.233.183.104/search?....1&gl=se Very interesting, thanks for the link. I had heard about that interview, but had never actually read it. But isn't it interesting how he contradicts himself there? How can it be "very, very rewarding" for those who want to hear it, if it is "a load of rubbish"? Unless you're really big on rubbish, of course. Also, if he was so unhappy with part 3, isn't it a bit odd that, two years later, he'd release an album that was more or less a direct continuation of that style (QE2)? Honestly, I have a feeling he was just pulling Karl Dallas' leg with that interview. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: June 28 2007, 17:06 I'm afraid we weren't getting the full picture here: Quote "I must explain," he said, "that the most important parts are the flute solo and the vibraphone solo, and the guitar solo which is next to the vibraphone part. The rest of it is a load of rubbish." Really? "And all my works have been a load of rubbish." By what standards? "By standards of me fully expressing myself, rather than expressing my hang-ups, my happiness, my disappointments, my pride, what I thought of myself, all that sort of rubbish." So he isn't talking about "rubbish" as in "not good music", but just not fulfilling his own, personal, peculiar, hard-to-understand standards. I can kind of understand where he's coming from, but of course, there's a lot of his own, personal interpretation of the albums, which I probably have nothing to do with. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 28 2007, 18:31 Gosh, that interview is very hard going. Thank goodness he's come a long long way since then. I can believe that the exegesis might have been a turning point, but it's alarming how he talks as if he's 'solved' the problem - in the same way as you might close a door or change a light bulb. He talks as if he's gained enormous insight into himself and the way things are, when actually he seems to have merely disassociated himself from them (which is a potentially risky psychological manoeuvre, I should think). So what comes out is mostly nonsense - I'm sure it made a kind of sense to Mike at the time, but I doubt if it made much sense to anyone else. I wouldn't trust anything he says in that interview, in terms of shedding any light on the music. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: June 28 2007, 21:42 Quote (Alan D @ June 28 2007, 18:31) I can believe that the exegesis might have been a turning point, but it's alarming how he talks as if he's 'solved' the problem - in the same way as you might close a door or change a light bulb. He talks as if he's gained enormous insight into himself and the way things are, when actually he seems to have merely disassociated himself from them (which is a potentially risky psychological manoeuvre, I should think). Maybe this has something to do with the bad reputation that, um, therapy reportedly has... -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1763 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: June 29 2007, 03:22 Wasn't there an interview with Mike's engineer (someone namned Newell?) from that time in an issue of that fanzine (the Bell?). Didn't he say something there about the recording of Incantations? I've never read that interview myself, and I don't think it's on the net either. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

Marky Group: Members Posts: 390 Joined: Sep. 2005 Posted: June 29 2007, 03:54 I think Mike said (and did) a lot of things post-Exegesis that were confused or a reaction to his therapy and "coming out" (if you see what I mean...) that have to be discounted at least in part. All that matters with Incantations, surely, is whether we like it and perhaps why. Then it can be as rubbish as you like and not matter at all! On that subject, to put it briefly, I find parts 1 and 4 are the strongest compositionally although part 3 is the rock stuff which for me is well played but not Mike's most interesting material, and part 2 is lovely until the over-long Maddy Prior Hiawatha section, which would have been fine at say 3-4 minutes.  Parts 1 and 4 however, I think are beautiful and exciting and the use of orchestra and percussion is outstanding with his playing. The percussion work in particular is what I hope he'll not lose sight of with this new Spheres work! http://markcslattery.spaces.live.com/ Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1763 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: June 29 2007, 05:07 My personal opinion is that part 1 is quite different to anything else on the album. The other three sides are more in the traditional "let's-put-stuff-together"-style that he (very succesfully) applied on the first three albums. Side 1 of incantations is a flow from the first note to the last. Even though I love the whole album, I think there are pieces that could possibly have been extended in order to fill up each side; the oddly long guitarsolo bit in part 3, the infamous everlasting Hiawatha Section and the vibraphone section in part 4 that gets a less effective (and overlong) reprise with synthesizer and rhythm guitar. This is the best album I have ever heard, and still I have complaints! I guess that says a lot about who I am. :-/ -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: July 23 2008, 02:07 Quote (Alan D @ June 28 2007, 18:31) Gosh, that interview is very hard going. Thank goodness he's come a long long way since then. I can believe that the exegesis might have been a turning point, but it's alarming how he talks as if he's 'solved' the problem - in the same way as you might close a door or change a light bulb. He talks as if he's gained enormous insight into himself and the way things are, when actually he seems to have merely disassociated himself from them (which is a potentially risky psychological manoeuvre, I should think). So what comes out is mostly nonsense - I'm sure it made a kind of sense to Mike at the time, but I doubt if it made much sense to anyone else. I wouldn't trust anything he says in that interview, in terms of shedding any light on the music. This is an old topic, but it touches on my own response to Mike's music: I love the vast majority of his post-exegesis music, while the majority of the pre-exegesis music leaves me cold. Something definitely changed him. After Incantations I didn't bother even to listen to another MO record for years and years - and I couldn't believe, when I did, that his later records were by the same person. They seemed so much better, at least according to my own taste! So I'd say Mike knew exactly what he was talking about! Who better to know his own thoughts and feelings than himself? Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: July 23 2008, 02:31 If you need any convincing that the pre-Exegesis and the post-Exegesis Mike are poles apart, you have only to compare the cover art of Incantations and of Amarok. The person on the cover of the former is peering diffidently out at us as if to say, "Please world, don't hurt me", while the god-like figure on the cover of the latter is full of confidence, saying "Watch out world, or I'll kick your arse!" And similarly with the music. Mike's story, of battling his demons and the world, and winning triumphantly, is something of which he should be very proud. It's what the human spirit is all about. Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 23 2008, 08:01 Good point but the cover of Incantations was shot around 3 weeks after the seminar as it says in Changling.  Maybe a better comparison would be Ommadawn and Amarok. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: July 23 2008, 10:00 Quote (The Caveman @ July 23 2008, 08:01) Good point but the cover of Incantations was shot around 3 weeks after the seminar as it says in Changling.  Maybe a better comparison would be Ommadawn and Amarok. True, although the shot would have been planned some time before. Presumably, too, it would take Mike a while to get used to his new found power and ability. As God in Kinsley Amis's  excellent novel The Green Man says, "It took me a long time to work out who I was and what I could do". Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 23 2008, 11:35 Again good point.Reading what Mike said about this point in his life he says he was full of confidence straight after the seminar and set about immediately starting a new life.  It's purely a perception thing though.To me he looks like a very confident person in that picture.He also always meant Incantations to be performed live and planned the tour right down to the catering himself with very little outside help.It almost bankrupted him in the process but this was all within months of his 'rebirth'.He couldn't go to the shops before without getting the horrors so to plan a tour demands someone with a lot of confidence.  He also posed nude within a few weeks of Incantations being released for Sounds to promote Incantations.Pretty confident I'd say (although the exact reason he did this i never could find out).  He seems to have regretted his frankly wierd behaviour later (the quote from Sir M bares it out.Read the full interview in the Article section....he is very very odd at that point)as when the initial zeal wore off a few years later he came back to earth with a serious bump. He was by then a million miles from the shy,mumbling and obviously troubled (and slightly p*ssed maybe?)young man on the All You Need Is Love.I can't help feeling sorry for him by then cos he obviously just doesn't get the world at all. -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: July 23 2008, 12:52 I have a friend in a similar position at the moment, i.e. not getting the world. I have tried sitting him down and explaining to him that it's about accepting the cage; society is the way it is and there's nothing any one can do to survive beyond those bounds. Having said that, it is always the radical thinkers who laugh in the face of the norm that bring about changes to Life, the Universe and Everything. I am still somewhat troubled with his inability to focus and his constant worrying (even though he wouldn't admit it) but I guess he will need to sort himself out much the same as Oldfield did. I can only hope that it doesn't take my friend as long. There is another argument that no-one truly knows themselves until the moment they die. Philosophy aside, I'm rather more interested in being able to get through the here and now. Being a dreamer, which I am and my friend is, can sometimes lead to great things, but remembering that you still have your feet on the ground when you gaze at the sky is always the better way. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4761 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: July 23 2008, 20:24 Quote (The Caveman @ July 23 2008, 11:35) He also posed nude within a few weeks of Incantations being released for Sounds to promote Incantations.Pretty confident I'd say (although the exact reason he did this i never could find out). You can guess at the symbolic reasons: if you strip yourself naked, you're showing not only that you are no longer hiding but also that you no longer care about hiding. I imagine escaping from those dorky Incantations clothes would be quite a relief! Back to top

The Caveman Group: Members Posts: 2178 Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: July 24 2008, 02:39 Lol.I thought the white sports jacket was quite a good look (did anyone mention JMJ?) -------------- THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH. Back to top

Delfín Group: Members Posts: 667 Joined: Nov. 2000 Posted: Sep. 08 2009, 22:27 Quote (nightspore @ July 23 2008, 08:31) If you need any convincing that the pre-Exegesis and the post-Exegesis Mike are poles apart, you have only to compare the cover art of Incantations and of Amarok. The person on the cover of the former is peering diffidently out at us as if to say, "Please world, don't hurt me", while the god-like figure on the cover of the latter is full of confidence, saying "Watch out world, or I'll kick your arse!" And similarly with the music. Mike's story, of battling his demons and the world, and winning triumphantly, is something of which he should be very proud. It's what the human spirit is all about. Oh, that is definately a beautiful way to put things down. -------------- The most precious thing I possess, is knowing the answer's yes Back to top

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