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my name is beowulf Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: Oct. 2004 Posted: Oct. 15 2004, 21:03 i had first thought i hear the choir blurt out "fuck" randomly towards the 45 minute matrk or something, but then i found out its "fa" -------------- vive amarok Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: Oct. 18 2004, 06:19 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 15 2004, 13:06) Anyway - do you hear 'bugger' as well as me? Not sure about 'bugger'.  I'm listening out for a 'sod' and a couple of 'bastard's though. Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 18 2004, 10:38 Well, with all this discussion I decided I had to get a copy (I never replaced my Amarok LP with a CD because I'd given up on it, and I no longer have an LP player). But my copy is taking forever to arrive from Amazon. I never thought there'd be a day when I was actually impatient to listen to Amarok again (though admittedly for mostly the wrong reasons! ) Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: Oct. 18 2004, 11:46 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 18 2004, 10:38) I never thought there'd be a day when I was actually impatient to listen to Amarok again (though admittedly for mostly the wrong reasons! ) "Wrong reasons"?  Not at all - I'd call it "detailed linguistic research" - something that should be commended. Jules -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 22 2004, 10:44 Well, my copy of Amarok finally arrived, and I gave it my first re-listen for several years. Two points: 1. About the words that occasionally stutter their way through the performance. 'Happy' is obvious; so is 'Busy'. But so, surely, are 'Bugger' and 'Fuckin' 'ell'? There doesn't seem to be any doubt about those at all. And this time around I'm not so convinced about 'arsehole'. I think the first time we hear them it's 'soh fah', or 'fah soh'  and then near the end we hear a kind of variant or development from that: 'soh hey lah'. I still have the suspicion that both are inspired by messing around with 'arsehole' however - a bit like being given the variations without stating the theme! 2. The music. It's more heartbreaking than I remember - heartbreaking because there are in fact some terrific passages of music in there, destroyed by the smashes of discord that turn the listening experience into a painful one (for me, at any rate). I presume the title is some kind of blend of 'amok' and 'rock'? The 'amok' aspect sounds appropriate. I have the feeling that months of work were brough to a conclusion by someone almost literally running amok - throwing completed sections together, chucking discordant clashes in almost at random and ruining any sense of continuity in the music. Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Oct. 22 2004, 11:19 I recall someone a couple of years ago offering a "bowdlerized" version of Amarok with (supposedly) the discordant noises either removed or reduced. I never checked it out. I suppose it would be like listening to "A Day in the Life" without the orchestral roaring. For some of what you are saying, I disagree. While there are some places with loud guitar noises that are indeed disconcerting, many of the added noises fit in quite well. The toy dog at the end of one section ("Lion", I think?) nicely. In "Africa", the music paves the way for the Piltdown Man, telephone, and morse code noises, which seem right at home there. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 22 2004, 12:38 Quote (hiawatha @ Oct. 22 2004, 16:19) I recall someone a couple of years ago offering a "bowdlerized" version of Amarok with (supposedly) the discordant noises either removed. I never checked it out. If anyone can offer a copy of that, I'd be really interested. I agree that some of the noises are no worse than minor irritations - like someone crunching sweets in the seat next to you at a concert, it's possible to live with them, maybe. But some of the loud interjected squealing stuff is just horribly out of tune. Trouble is, I don't at all understand how to get past the pain barrier in order (possibly) to understand why he might have done that. Someone earlier in this thread (Holger I think) said it isn't like Ommadawn, and of course it isn't - except there's a distinct musical quotation from Ommadawn in at least one place. Or then again, wait a moment. The over-riding emotion I sense here in this music is anger. But whereas in Ommadawn the feeling of anger in the famous climax is aroused by wonderfully, artfully controlled music, the anger that keeps breaking through here seem more like a series of tantrums. The music is going along nicely and then: 'ALRIGHT THEN I'LL TEAR UP MY COMICS!' and wham bam here we go. Back to top

ATTMO Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: June 2004 Posted: Oct. 22 2004, 15:31 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 22 2004, 16:44) 1.I think the first time we hear them it's 'soh fah', or 'fah soh'  and then near the end we hear a kind of variant or development from that: 'soh hey lah'. I still have the suspicion that both are inspired by messing around with 'arsehole' however - a bit like being given the variations without stating the theme! actually it is "son de la" which means something like "shine you who is almighty" -------------- "Such is life; and we are but as grass that is cut down, and put into the oven and baked" - Jerome K Jerome Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 22 2004, 16:41 Quote (ATTMO @ Oct. 22 2004, 20:31) actually it is "son de la" which means something like "shine you who is almighty" Thanks. That seems to be a killer blow to my 'arsehole' theory! Back to top

olracUK Group: Members Posts: 1683 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2004, 20:17 Talking of discordant interruptions, and I may have mentioned this before so scroll past if you have, but I always laugh out loud when it comes to the "tea break" section. The sound of spoon on teacup, the satisfied "ahhh". All that's missing is a chocolate hobnob (and if you're not familiar with british biscuits you are missing something there) being dipped into the tea. mike set out to challenge with Amarok. Challenge Virgin to put it out following the euro-rock they had demanded of him. challenge himself to get all those new and old themes into one place. Challenge cloth eared nincompoops to sit and actually listen to a whole album in one go. love it or loath it, Amarok does just what it says on the tin. -------------- The answer is 42 - but what is the question? Back to top

familyjules Group: Members Posts: 1190 Joined: May 2004 Posted: Oct. 23 2004, 05:24 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 22 2004, 10:44) It's more heartbreaking than I remember - heartbreaking because there are in fact some terrific passages of music in there, destroyed by the smashes of discord I listened to Amarok again last night. You know, try as I have done (and still do) to love Amarok, I do keep returning to a point of view not too dissimilar to the one I'm quoting from Alan's post.  There's all these really great themes on Amarok, loads of 'em, which are broken up before they've had a chance to establish themselves, and I can't help but think that that is a bit of a shame.  The record still frustrates me more than it delights me at this stage. -------------- I like beer and I like cheese Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 23 2004, 05:29 Quote (olracUK @ Oct. 23 2004, 01:17) Amarok does just what it says on the tin. Doesn't say on the tin it'll break your heart though... I bleed for some of the music that's on that album, effectively ruined by the smash and grab effort. (Minutes later): You must have been writing your post Jules at the same time as I was writing mine. Yes, yes - it's quite upsetting, really. The good things are so much better than I remember them to be - and that makes the ruination harder to take. Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Oct. 23 2004, 05:42 It's easy to see where you're coming from, but prehaps the 'discordant' bits are why I love Amarok so much: it's the fact that he's managed to put all of these unmusical and downright strange elements into an album and still make it work. Of course, you won't agree with me if you don't think it works... You will find that Amarok has its own strange kind of continuity, where a melody will be interrupted by another, but 10 minutes later it will be back in a totally different musical guise. There are a few (can't think how many) themes that keep returning throughout the piece; the 'fast riff' theme that opens the album is an obvious example. Prehaps that isn't continuity in the literal sense: the individual sections chop and change madly, but I'm sure none of you can say that Amarok is in the least bit traditional. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is up to you. -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 23 2004, 14:03 Take it as a psychological landscape, because that's what it is. That's the only advice I can give. Another is to drop the idea of different "sections" and "themes". It's all one unbreakable thing, and if one "section" seems "broken" by "another", the two different "sections" are really one. They're natural extensions of each other. If they seem weird, it's because that's the way human nature is... -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 23 2004, 15:44 Hell guys, now I've spent good money (again! ) on the damn thing, I'm going to listen to it at least a few more times I guess; but ... I don't know how to explain this, except by saying that I don't 'trust' it. I mean - to engage properly with any art, you have to try to set aside your prejudices and sink into it even if at first it repels you, in a kind of act of faith - otherwise you can only stay 'outside' and that way you never understand. But of course there's a risk in this. You don't know at the outset that any particular piece of art will repay your trust. Now, how many times have I listened to Amarok since it was released? Twenty? (Not bad going for a piece of music that upsets me so much.) And each time I try to tell myself that the discords and the noises and the chopping up of beautiful music and the daft Thatcher chat are there for a purpose, and I should just try to accept them. Let them in. And each time, an hour later, I just feel so sad/frustrated/angry because I feel I've been trying to engage with a spoiled thing. A glass crystal that the maker shattered; a daffodil that the gardener stamped on. I just don't see me getting past this, really. Back to top

Holger Group: Members Posts: 1506 Joined: Feb. 2003 Posted: Oct. 23 2004, 15:57 Quote (familyjules @ Oct. 23 2004, 11:24) The record still frustrates me more than it delights me at this stage. I recommend you pick up QE2 and / or Five Miles Out, occupy yourself with those wonderful pieces of music for a while (I think you will find them far less frustrating), then maybe return to Amarok when you feel like it, and you might or might not hear it differently next time around.   Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 23 2004, 18:56 I think I understand you, Alan. I think there are two things you may do: 1) Stop listening to Amarok. If you keep insisting, it won't work If you leave it aside and keep listening to other music, you might start to want to listen to it again - naturally, not forcedly. Then it may click on you. OR... 2) You can pick up "Trout Mask Replica" by Captain Beefheart, or "The Third Reich 'n' Roll" by The Residents, to see what truly shattered, wicked albums THOSE are. Amarok will sound like The Monkees next to those puppies, and you may feel a bit better about it. Who knows, you may enjoy it then? -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

ATTMO Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: June 2004 Posted: Oct. 23 2004, 21:13 Quote (familyjules @ Oct. 23 2004, 11:24) You know, try as I have done (and still do) to love Amarok, I do keep returning to a point of view not too dissimilar to the one I'm quoting from Alan's post.  There's all these really great themes on Amarok, loads of 'em, which are broken up before they've had a chance to establish themselves, and I can't help but think that that is a bit of a shame.  The record still frustrates me more than it delights me at this stage. well you and alan d (and many others) are somehow trying to force yourself to get into amarok and this will probably not work. I could not get used to amarok at the beginning, tried a few times and then let it go. After reading lots of opinons of people fascinated by it i gave it another try. I left it running in the background and did not care very much of it when i got hooked by the guitar in minute 22 or something. Still I found the rest weird. As I have done some personal studies into composing I was quite fascinated by the amarok analysis by Brian Farrell ( http://members.madasafish.com/~urbangeo/amarok/ ). I listened to Amarok on headphones (I like to do so now still as one does not lose any detail) and then I was completely overwhelmed and I am ever since every time I listen. Well what did I want to say? You cannot force your way into Amarok. Hopefully you will get into it sometime. When I started to love Mikes music (TB2, SODE, QE2 were my favourites back then) I did not like Amarok and it was quite an evolution. And it is worth it. "By taking a closer look at these cross-references and motivic variations in the following analysis, I hope to go some way to attesting to the fact that, absurd as it may seem, Amarok does indeed make sense. And a glorious one at that. As for its meaning, I'll leave that up to you to figure out. " (from Bryan Ferrells analysis) -------------- "Such is life; and we are but as grass that is cut down, and put into the oven and baked" - Jerome K Jerome Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Oct. 24 2004, 00:00 Giving an album a complete rest before listening again is something I do regularly (often by accident, as I just don't get around to listening to them often enough), and it usually helps. Yes, I do understand Alan D that this is exactly what you have done! Which particular bits do you like? I would personally suggest the Africa sections at the end to get to know (the ones with the african drums), as they don't have a huge amount of discord (excepting the phone call of course) and a huge amount of wonderful music. They would be my choice if I was forced to only listen to a small section of Amarok. Reading that Amarok analysis has if anything increased my admiration for this album. It seems hard to believe that all of this can fit in 60 minutes. This really is one of the most wonderous musical achievements of all time (I'm talking of the album itself here, but writing the analysis can't have been easy either. Well done Bryan!! ) -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 24 2004, 05:29 Quote (Holger @ Oct. 23 2004, 20:57) I recommend you pick up QE2 and / or Five Miles Out, occupy yourself with those wonderful pieces of music for a while Been doing that for over 25 years, Holger..... and with all the rest of the MO albums too. If it were any other artist I'd have abandoned Amarok years ago (well, as it happens, I did - though even now I returned to it, as you see). Back to top

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