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Topic: I am taking my copy back for a refund, Quality and Copy protection< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
sunjammer44 Offline




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Posted: July 26 2003, 05:14

Quote (Fox @ July 25 2003, 08:57)
 We Americans complain faster--and louder--than any other nation, so they'll definately hear from us if they make the same mistake twice  haha!

Not sure I totally agree with that - we English can be a nation of groaners.  The Aussies don't call us 'whinging Poms for nothing!'  :D


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Chic
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Posted: July 26 2003, 18:08

All you guys that say TB 2003 is a botch up.  Has it ever occured to you that Your CD players are utter shit.  Play TB 2003 on a normal CD player and you wont have any problems mony cunts.  Mike Oldfield is a legend, mandolin twice might be a mistake that Mike heard but thought it added some fun.  I hope you guys do not get a refund for being petty little pricks.  Imagine how ridiculous you guys will look when explaining your reasons for refund.  Get a life!!!
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Fox Offline




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Posted: July 26 2003, 18:29

You're right, I do need a life ;-), but that point aside, I use my computer as my stereo.  And everyone will tell you it sounds bad played from one of those.  I only want a copy that doesn't pause at every track to load the next, and that I can rip to my hard drive so I don't have to insert the CD.

Yes, I did explain my reason for my return.  Becuse of the software, it won't play properly on my computer.  It's the truth.

Besides, I'm buying the Canadian release, so the company (and Mike) gets the money either way.

We're not making anal-retentive complaints; we only want something that'll play in our computers.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 26 2003, 19:04

It's nice to see board users talking in a respectful way to each other, isn't it?

Whether it plays well or not has nothing to do with the cost of the CD player - many extremely inexpensive systems will play the album fine, while I've heard from some people with ridiculously expensive players which don't want to know.

There are numerous reasons why it may not work in a particular player, and yes, the quality of the player's lens is likely to make a difference to whether the system causes noise on playback or not, as is the sophistication of a player's error correction.
Many of the other problems have nothing to do with the quality of components, however - problems with it stopping part way into a track, or not playing the disc at all, are going to be down to the way the player reacts to the corrupted table of contents present on the disc. It's only if the player is designed in a way which ignores that - and this has nothing to do with player quality - that the disc will play.

But yes, there is something badly manufactured involved in all cases where the album hasn't worked for someone - the CD. The system is badly designed, and almost deliberately so. Of course they want the album to work in as many conventional players as possible, but really they've put the design effort into the parts which stop the disc from playing, rather than the parts which make it compatible with CD players (once upon a time there used to be this thing called the red book, and every CD and every CD player complied with it and they all got along fine...but we've moved on since then, it seems...).

I personally think that copy protection is a rather wasted effort on the part of the record company (of course, it's not a wasted effort for the developers; they'll be making a fortune out of this) - it's not stopping what it's intended to, so what's it for?

Record companies may not stop at this in their efforts to control how their music is used - some companies already send out pre-release CDs sealed inside a portable CD player, in an effort to stop them being bootlegged. The idea that they might try and control the consumer market in a similar way seems ridiculous, but then these are desperate times...
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qjamesfloyd Offline




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Posted: July 27 2003, 10:00

i have'nt contributed to this argument for a while because i believe it is a stupid argument,and it works fine on my computer,car stereo and home stereo,lucky i guess,and it is the UK edition,but it seems like people are upset because they are not aloud to break the law!!!!!because ripping CD's is breaking the law,but because everyone has been doing it freely upto now,everything has been fine,but all of a sudden you can't get your own way!!!!.I'm sure if any of you own'ed the copyright to TUBULAR BELLS or your own music,then you might get a bit pissed of with not getting all the money that is meant to come your way.The fact is that Tubular Bells 2003 is a great record,all this crap about mistakes and MANDOLIN for the second time is crazy,because the origanal Tubula Bells has far more errors in it than the new one,but untill the new one came out,it was most peoples favourite album,and a stone cold classic!!!.I have just had new 200 watt Kenwood speakers put in my car,and the new album at high volume is astounding,i can't wait to listen to Mike's other albums in the car too.All this talk is worthless,just imagine how pissed off you would all be if Mike said that he is never going to record a note of music again,because remeber one day he will stop making this crazy wonderful beautiful music we all adore.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 27 2003, 11:06

But the people who want to break the law are freely able to - like you said, you can get it to play in your PC fine, so can many of the people who want to make illegal copies of it.

This reveals what's silly about the system - whether it's going to work in a particular device or not is entirely random.

If it won't play in one person's CD player, but they've bought the album and want to listen to it, it seems by all accounts that they're likely to do exactly what the record companies are trying to stop and make a copy of it...because a lot of people find that burning a CDR copy of the album, with the inherent errors of the original corrected, makes a copy which plays fine in their CD player.

I will however agree that there are some people who are complaining simply because they can't carry on with illegal activities. That certainly is not everyone, though. If you were the owner of an expensive CD player (or even a cheap and well trusted one which you had no intention of replacing) and a large collection of CDs, all of which play fine in that player, and suddenly along comes an album from your favourite artist, and you find it won't play, or worse it breaks the player, because the record company has deliberately corrupted that disc...wouldn't you feel a tad annoyed?

I would have no objections if the copy protection does what it says on the tin and stops people from illegally copying it. The problem is that it doesn't - it just stops people from listening to it.

If artists want to get the money they deserve, they should steer clear of large record companies for a start. Not only do they legally manage to wrangle as much money as they can from the artist's earnings (you'd be amazed at the twists and turns it all takes - it's nowehere near as simple as Mike getting a certain percentage no matter what the format...they take more money from the artist for releases on newer formats...with copy protected CDs being a new format, that probably means Mike gets less than for a standard CD), but the industry is absolutely crawling with fraudsters and large sums of royalties can often mysteriously go missing (of course, it only comes to light if someone does a full audit)...

Personally, if I was in Mike's position (or even in my position), I would be concerned with the quality of the product which reaches the end user, and as a result, this current system of copy protection would not make me happy at all.
It would certainly also not make me happy that some people were so lacking in respect that they felt it would be ok if they stole a copy of the album. However, I would be far more concerned with selling copies to more households, than trying to get one person to buy multiple copies of the album so that he/she can listen to it in the car, on an iPod, on the computer and so on, especially with my album sales in the hundreds of thousands. I'd much rather it was respectfully bought by more people, who are fully able to enjoy the album and listen to it in the way which they are able to most enjoy it in (I mean heck, if I wanted to control what people listened on, I'd put in a system that meant it could only be played back on the equipment I mixed it on and in the same acoustic environment...which would probably mean that nobody at all would listen to it, as anyone with a studio correctly equipped to play it would be working in there and not listening to albums). I think it's important to look when marketing a product and work out how people are going to use it - if it seems that people want to listen to it on computers, then they should be allowed to, but a proper system should be found that makes that a viable business proposition.
A very interesting website is http://www.weblisten.com - there you can legally download albums (including Tubular Bells 2003) for a small fee. Similar is Apple's iTunes store. Businesses like these are at least recognising that people want music on their computers and are trying to sell it to people in a convenient format (will people pay for it? They might be more likely to if record companies promoted such services more heavily, instead of wasting their money on copy protection which doesn't work).

So this debate as I see it is far from worthless - the way I see it, it concerns the future of the music industry. I personally believe that going down the path of copy protection could well lead to the slow but steady introduction of more restrictions - already it seems that the copy protection methods have become more extreme with more recent releases such as Tubular Bells 2003. When they see this system isn't working, they'll look for something more heavy duty...and when they realise that any CD player with an analogue output can be used to make a copy of an album...what will a desperate record company do then?
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Terminator
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Posted: July 27 2003, 19:17

"and suddenly along comes an album from your favourite artist, and you find it won't play, or worse it breaks the player, because the record company has deliberately corrupted that disc...wouldn't you feel a tad annoyed?"

Well said - This copy protection may eventually go a stage further if you do not nip it in the bud now.

You may find in the near future that as a computer programs can be introduced in a CD to corect deliberate errors, then it would be easy for these manufavtures to introduce a virus in the CD that will monitor your computer for illegal MP3;s and then destroy your hard-drive.

Its a bit like the terminator films, its started as a copy protection disk, so its time to fight back now and refuse these unpure music CDs, corupted by hidden programs.

Otherwize the music industry will be full of these copy protection disks, ITS TIME TO SHOW THAT WE DO NOT WANT THEM.
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qjamesfloyd Offline




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Posted: July 28 2003, 06:19

Maybe Warners or Mike should take a leaf from Sony and Roger Waters,his last album "Flickering Flame:The solo years volume 1"has copy protection on it,and it would play at all on my computer,thus not damageing it,and as it does'nt play,so it does'nt stop half way through,but it will happily play on my home stereo and car stereo.So there are copy protection systems out there that will work.
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: July 28 2003, 06:55

There have been lots of articles in the local newspaper recently about the dwindling sales of CDs. I haven't looked at the weblisten site that Korgscrew mentioned, but I'll bet that the 'small fee' they charge is nowhere near the huge prices that get charged for CDs at the moment. Its just totally rediculous that I can buy a two-pack of CDs for $10 AUS, but for any new CD they want closer to $30 AUS. And they still complain that people don't buy?

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Fox Offline




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Posted: July 28 2003, 08:10

Whenever someone talks about the reasons we don't want copy protection, people who haven't experienced it think the reason is because we can't copy the music anymore.

It's easy to criticize someone for something you haven't personally been though, isn't it?

If a record company sealed a CD in a permanent CD player, or put the music on MP3 in its own unit so you can only listen to the music on *that* unit...do we really need to explain why this is absurd?

Do you want companies telling you how you can and cannot listen to music?  Of course stealing CDs is wrong, but should the honest people who buy the music have to suffer, too?  They seem to be the only ones who are, because the company is telling us how we can and cannot listen to it.

I buy all my music, and (I admit it) I rip the CDs to mp3s on my hard drive so I can listen to a dozen CDs back to back without having to change disks.  This is legal as long as I don't distribute the music.  I don't want record companies telling me I can't do this when I have broken NO laws.

As someone said, the copy protection doesn't work; rather it prevents honest people from listening to the music.  The trouble with measures trying to prevent theft is that so often they trample on the freedoms of those who haven't done a thing wrong.

Companies need to realize (I speak as a former computer programmer) that EVERYTHING CAN BE COPIED.  No matter what you do to prevent it, someone will find a way to copy it, and all it takes is one time and then they can distribute it to everyone else.  They need to work *with* this fact.

I like what someone else said earlier; but I can't remember who: Musicisans should make music that people will WANT to buy.  I mean, who feels guilty for stealing from Brittany Spears or any Rap singer?  What they make is just noise with curse words and lots of bass, and who would feel guilty for stealing noise?  The music isn't worth buying!

In the interest of balance, if the tracks hadn't linked together, would we really have noticed the copy protection?  The complaint has been that the music sounds broken because the recording pauses while the CD spins to load the next track.  If the tracks had been like TL (unlinked), would as many people be complaining?  Probably, because the recording still pops and skips in the middle, too.  I'd notice because I can't rip the music LEGALLY to my hard drive.  Others might notice because the CD won't play on all devices.

So it doesn't seem like a whining matter to me.  I say this is a matter of principle:  do we want companies telling us how we can listen to music that we pay for?  While I'm against people stealing music, I'm also against the measures preventing such theft preventing honest people from listening to music their way.


I've also heard that there are programs in testing stages that will destroy your hard drive if they detect illegal mp3 activity.  If this is true, doesn't anyone object?  Do you want to take the risk of that software making a false call (you having done nothing illegal at all), and erasing your hard drive?  How would you prove in court that you did nothing wrong when the evidence is gone?  How will the software detect illegal mp3 activity as opposed to legal mp3 activity?  What *else* will it detect besides illegal mp3s?

The software won't be released for that reason unless we allow it!!!!  Anyone with access to such software can not only erase your computer, but also copy it without your knowledge, enforcing laws within your home.  Almost sounds like 1984...and maybe I'm being a little paranoid, but is it really that far from possible?  (Can telescreens be far away?   haha)  If we *allow* someone to take away one little freedom, there's no telling what can happen from there.  Something as trivial as music can lead to anything.

This post is way too long, but I hope this touches on the real reason for this discussion.
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Gandalph Offline




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Posted: July 28 2003, 10:00

Quote (qjamesfloyd @ July 27 2003, 10:00)
it works fine on my computer,car stereo and home stereo,lucky i guess,and it is the UK edition,

Yes you are lucky that it works will all your systems, but after buying a CD should it be a random act of luck if the thing works or not? There is this little thing called the Redbook standard that guarantees all genuine CDs play in all CD players bearing the audio CD logo. The record companies are just taking the Michael by abusing the published standards.

Also can you guarantee that your copy will still play in a year or twos time when it gets a few scratches and the combined scratches and deliberate faults overwhelm the cd players inbuilt error correction?

And what about when Micro$oft release the next version of Windows, will the crappy Warner player still be compatible with that? And of course there is still the problem of it not working with non-MS operating systems.

You see once you start abusing standards by tagging new bits on to them too many problems occur and too many questions remain unanswered.

Quote (qjamesfloyd @ July 27 2003, 10:00)
but it seems like people are upset because they are not aloud to break the law!!!!!because ripping CD's is breaking the law,but because everyone has been doing it freely upto now,everything has been fine,but all of a sudden you can't get your own way!!!!.


I think you are being too arrogant making assumptions why some people are upset with copy-protected discs.

There are many reasons for wanting to make copies and rip it to mp3. For example making a backup copy in case the original gets damaged or stolen. Or ripping it to mp3 so that it can be transferred to an ipod or creative jukebox or other mp3 player, or listened to on a computer without having to have the hassle of changing discs. Some countries have a fair use law that specifically allows this. This does not deprive the record company or artist of income in any way. But by copy protecting a CD, the record companies are acting like they are above the law.

I do not condone people making copies and giving them away at all, in fact take at look at my attitude in this thread. But I cannot agree with copy protection on CDs because it does more to harm the honest record buyer than it does to prevent theft.


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Terminator
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Posted: July 29 2003, 12:36

I have now read four pages of pros (very little) and cons (very much) on this copy protection in the UK.

There must be some of us on this site that are close to the music industry buzz and especially Mike Oldfields ear.

Can they say if the 'mass returns of TB2003 and refusal to buy it' with copy protection in the UK is having an effect on sales and Warners attitude ?
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: July 29 2003, 12:51

Mmmm, I did buy a cd player now which plays the TB2003 without problems. So I'm happy now. *Happy?*

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qjamesfloyd Offline




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Posted: July 29 2003, 15:18

I'm happy for you Blue Dolphin ;)
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: July 29 2003, 15:49

jeeh, what a sarcasm ;)

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qjamesfloyd Offline




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Posted: July 30 2003, 07:22

I thought you'd like that :D
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: July 30 2003, 07:44

Yes!!!... uh... NO!! ;)

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Knife Edge
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Posted: July 31 2003, 10:29

Ehm, insert your TB 2003 in in your cd-rom drive (I think it is better in the cd-r), windows does not see the audio tracks, but Nero does. So open nero, click simply on the copy button, and voila! you have a perfect copy of TB 2003, including the protection!

So, this protection is totally useless, and it only causes problems with some cd reader... so, why use it? I hope some at wea will answer to this question.

Bye

Knife Edge
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: July 31 2003, 19:06

So Mike sounds a bit dismissive of us all in that Guardian interview. "..a couple of people have complained on the fan website because they can't copy and pirate it." Well Mike I can't even play your new album far less copy it and by the sounds of things I'm not alone, and also face facts chap it's more than just a couple of people complaining. Still I'm sure all this is just water of a ducks back isn't it?
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Terminator
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Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 02:33

As a lot of us don't ever read the Guardian, as in my case its the Beano, any chance of a few extracts from the Guardian interview to get a flavour of what Mike thinks of his fans suffering this copy protection fiasco ?
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