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Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 04:09 You can read it online here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,1008870,00.html I particularly like the 'couple of comments' bit...I mean, come on Mike, there are pages of them here, there were a load on the Amarok mailing list, loads on the German fan forum I looked at and I've got a whole folder full of emails sent to me about it. I've never seen so many complaints about the manufacturing quality of one of his albums (especially when combined with the numerous other manufacturing mistakes made). It's easy to say that people aren't buying records because it's so easy to copy them. I actually think that the issue is far more complex than that (indeed, there are even some analyses of the figures which reveal that the record industry isn't losing nearly as much as they may want to make people believe). Yes, various illegal methods of gaining music are going to be having an effect, I'm not going to deny that, but also to be considered is the general attitude of the record industry. Perhaps people just aren't interested in buying the watered down trash which they're attempting to shove down the public's throats, just the same as the way people have been deserting places like McDonalds in droves. McDonalds have had the business sense to change their product range to suit demand...what are the large record companies doing to move with public demand? Mike is totally, totally wrong in thinking the reason that people are complaining is because they can't make 50 copies of the album for all and sundry. I'd like to see him stand face to face with those people whose players have been damaged by his album, and tell them that their problem is that they just want to break the law. Does he really not get it? People are complaining because they can't play the album! Anyone who wants to make 50 copies of the album will be able to do so easily...anyone that determined to make a copy will go round to all their friends who have computers until they find one which will copy the disc (and by all accounts, it seems like about 50%, maybe more, maybe less, will do so happily). Mike's statement that it won't copy digitally is completely false - I can arrange for a demonstration if he likes, as I know of plenty people who have had no trouble at all (indeed, I think I could have sorted out a way myself. Why didn't I? Because if you want me to duplicate CDs, you either have to be a friend or a client, as well as being the copyright owner. If Warner want me to correct the corruptions in their CDs so they play properly, I'll do so happily, but I'm not going to pay them for the priveledge - they're going to have to pay me). So Mike, I congratulate you on so confidently accusing your fans of being nothing but a bunch of mass-pirating thieves. Some people may remember that next time they consider whether to buy yet another repackaged edition of something from your back catalogue. Some of us may even bear it in mind when considering whether or not to buy your future releases. P.S. does anyone want to buy a cheap copy of Tubular Bells 2003? Only, I've got 50 of them here and... Back to top

Fingers Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 04:50 I'd like to reiterate a major point that was glossed over a little earlier in the thread. If I am a home user who wants to play the music on various of my own sources for my own benefit only - I am breaking no laws by copying that music to mp3 or any other format. This copy protection makes it awkward for me to do this. If I am a CD pirate, who wishes to make copies for his friends or to sell then I hook up any sound system to the audio ins of my computer, boot Sound Forge, record the audio as high quality .wavs, break it into tracks, and save as MP3's. The copy protection in no way hinders me - just made it slightly more awkward - but given I'm going to make money doing it.. i'd take the time... So the commercial pirate is not stopped by this software - but the legitimate owners life is made more awkward. Someone who writes copy protection software has a very good salesman working for them who has convinced warner that this is a worthwhile cost. It's not - and sooner or later Mike Oldfield will have to drop the company line and think this through for himself, because he seems to be sadly missing the point. A great shame. Back to top

raven4x4x Group: Members Posts: 1535 Joined: Jan. 2002 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 07:17 Frankly, I find Mike's comment on the copy protection fiasco apalling. I have E-Mailed mikeoldfield.org about this issue, and I hope they take it to heart. Here is the E-Mail, which may in some way capture the views of everyone who has been affected by this copy-protection. Hello everyone at mikeoldfield.org I read with interest the interview with Mike on the Guardian webiste. It is great that Mike was invited to do an interview with such a respected newspaper, however I take issue with his comments on the Tubular Bells 2003 copy protection issue. I found his comment that "..a couple of people have complained on the fan website because they can't copy and pirate it," extremely offensive and insulting to the vast majority of his fans. Has he read any of these complaints? I am an active member of the forum at http://tubular.net and I can tell Mike that these complaints are not about piracy. They are about CD's which people have bought which jump, skip, stop, refuse to work altogether and in some cases even damage the CD players. If you read some of the comments at http://tubular.net/cgi-bin....SF;f=53 you will see the huge amount of complaints about disks that do not work in the manner which they should. I might go so far as to question the legality of CD's which are deliberately designed with faults and errors so they do not play. I wonder if Mike realises that he has called a vast majority of his fans pirates and law breakers. There is no law against ripping a song from a CD to a computer, or burning that song onto a compilation CD for my personal use, as I have no intention of selling or distributing that song. Nor is it illegal to copy a CD incase the original is damaged or lost. If there must be some form of copy protection, Warner should at least use a system that works. The only copy-protected CD I have plays perfectly on all CD players apart from the computer. It does not skip, jump or break my CD player. Even then, this is not a perfect solution. The majority of computer games nowadays have copy protection systems in which a copied CD on a CD-R will not run, but the original CD works perfectly on any computer. Why can music CD's not use the same system? I hope that Mike, as well as all of you at mikeoldfield.org, realise why people are so upset about this fiasco, and I hope Mike will think twice before agreeing to such a flawed system again. Alex Holman -------------- Thank-you for helping us help you help us all. Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 08:16 Well said chaps, I hope we get some sort of response. Back to top

Gandalph Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: Aug. 2002 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 08:44 How to sell records 101: lesson 1. Insult all your fans by calling them pirates and thieves. Even though you have no evidence to support your theory. Like several other people here, I too find Mike’s attitude totally offensive. I and many others here have stated the reasons why we object to copy protection so I won't repeat them again. If Mike thinks there has only been a couple of complaints and doesn’t understand what the complaints are, then he must be illiterate. That is the only thing that would explain it. The music industry seems to be forgetting one important point. We have a free choice as consumers whether to buy a CD or not. If we want it, it is sold at a fair price and is of acceptable quality we will buy it. If the product is faulty and refuses to work correctly we won't. There is no law that forces us to buy faulty products. By making faulty discs you are automatically going to reduce the number of discs sold. I can't see how this is magically going to save the record industry. Quote (Interviewed by Chris Price @ Thursday July 31, 2003) Broadband? I don't have it. I don't really feel the need for it because I don't download big things. BT seems to be so inefficient -I'm still arguing with them about phone bills from last year when they suddenly decided I owed £3,000. I think Mike is just a thieving B@$t@£d trying to rip off BT. Pay your phone bill you low life scumbag. (See how easy it is to make a sweeping generalisation) -------------- Yet Another Mike Oldfield Web Site - http://www.dbennett.karoo.net Back to top

Tati The Sentinel Group: Members Posts: 3360 Joined: Feb. 2002 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 09:04 Hum...so Mike knows about the fuss about CP! Well...CP is bad since we can't play TB in some CD players and/or listen to it like a normal CD.That my complain.Just these one. About the piracy thing...ask Mike is his music is SO popular nowadays that most people is going to buy non-official MO CDs in the web,on the street,since they can't buy his CDs since the original is more expansive than the piracy copy? I don't think so.We're not piracing MO's CDs to get money,it's only for personal use!And tell me Mike,how can some of your fans could get some rare tracks like B-sides and other stuff you've released that we don't find on the CDs and a CD version of it? Come on... In my case,I got TB2003 from the web,because I wanted to listen to it,here in Brazil it would take ages to get the CD.But I finnaly bought TB 2003,original,from Canada,without CP(well,I don't like to get a product that would have problems when I'm using it!.My entire MO CD collection are all original,although in the past I've donwloaded some of his CDs I didn't have,made a copy for personal use only,and when I had the chance to buy the original,I did it. I personally think that CDs are not cheap enough,so many people can buy then since they can't buy! And the artist does get just a little bit from all the selling(just remember the royalties case between Mike and Virgin in the past),the Record Companies gets most of the money! That's not fair! I vote for less expansive CDs,less money into Record Companies and more money to the artists.That would be okay. And piracy will be in a minimmum or even stop. Okidoki...let's wait the next chapters... Just my pennies on. -------------- "But it's always the outsider, the black sheep, that becomes the blockbuster." - Mike Oldfield, 2014 "I remember feeling that I'd been judged unfairly and that I was going to prove them wrong." - Peter Davison, 2011 Back to top

Blue Dolphin Group: Members Posts: 1232 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 09:26 I'm wondering: how many cd-players of you people actually broke down playing the copy-protected TB2003 cd? Please tell me how much and which brand the cd-player was. -------------- -The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it- Mike Oldfield - 1980 Back to top

Gandalph Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: Aug. 2002 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 20:01 Only a couple of fans complaining about copy protection hu? Well to add to the four websites already campaigning against copy protected discs listed on my site (http://www.dbennett.karoo.net/Warning.htm) I have now added a fifth: http://www.amadian.net/ And a couple of other websites that are not primarily connected with Mike but never the less have complaints about copy protection on TB 2003: http://speedysnail.com/2003/infotech.html http://www.livejournal.com/users/dreamingchristi/ -------------- Yet Another Mike Oldfield Web Site - http://www.dbennett.karoo.net Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 20:25 This article by Jim Peters is a good source of information on the damage being caused by copy protected CDs. The reports are relatively few in number - it's not a huge problem which affects almost everyone, by any means, but there shouldn't be any problem at all. The troubles I've personally had reports of have all been DVD-based machines - one DVD ROM drive and two DVD players. It may be easy for some to evade the issue and say "Well, it's for playing DVDs, go and buy a CD player if you want to play CDs" but that misses the point. These are machines that have been designed to be fully compatible with Audio CDs, and Tubular Bells 2003 is an object disguised as an Audio CD, it should work perfectly in all players designed to work with Audio CDs, and it should damage no players at all. So, three people, not a hugely high percentage (but it's not such an insignificant percentage of the total number of complaints I've seen). But I've never heard of ordinary CDs doing this. The chances of a copy protected CD damaging your player are far higher than those of winning the lottery...and a lottery it is. That's the problem - nobody can say "If you use X to play it, it will break". It's not that simple...most people with any particular model of DVD player will probably be able to play the CD fine (the two with problems were both from Pioneer, if that's of any interest), but maybe one or two will have more serious problems... I suspect that what happens is that something in the player gets pushed beyond its normal limits. Remember, the copy protection system employs various things designed to confuse certain designs of reader. When some devices encounter these errors, they'll try reading it again and again, and that seems to push some machines over the edge. That, in my opinion, is to be blamed on the CP system and not the drive - they were never designed to cope with the things that the CP system throws at them. Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Aug. 01 2003, 20:36 Quote (raven4x4x @ Aug. 01 2003, 12:17) There is no law against ripping a song from a CD to a computer, or burning that song onto a compilation CD for my personal use, as I have no intention of selling or distributing that song. Nor is it illegal to copy a CD incase the original is damaged or lost. This actually depends what country a person is in - in the UK, it's illegal to make any sort of copy. Recording things from the TV is also illegal (I wonder if Mike does that...). Of course, whether it's 'wrong' to make copies under such circumstances as you mention is rather open to debate (and some countries I believe have various fair use laws to accommodate that kind of thing), but that's the law as it stands in the UK... Back to top

Mikes greedy attitude Unregistered Posted: Aug. 02 2003, 18:01 Talk time: Mike Oldfield Interview Mike Oldfield's album Tubular Bells, Virgin Record's first release, sold 16m copies Interviewed Thursday July 31, 2003 The Guardian Is the internet a threat to the music industry? You only have to look at the front of Music Week to realise the music industry is in crisis. People aren't buying records because it is so easy to copy them. They download all their tracks and listen to them for nothing. What if people could pay for music online using services such as Apple's iTunes? You can already buy albums from Amazon. But if people want to buy tracks online I don't see a problem. It's just the piracy - it's massive in Europe. That's why record sales are down 50%. Why were so many fans outraged when Tubular Bells was released recently with digital copyright protection? If people are used to buying one copy and then making 50 copies on their PC, they are going to be a bit fed up, aren't they? They can still copy it with analogue. It just won't copy digitally. It has only caused a couple of comments on the fan websites because someone can't copy it and pirate it. Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Aug. 02 2003, 18:33 It's more than just a greedy attitude - it's ignorant as well. As for 'someone' can't copy it...it sounds like he's referring to one person, doesn't it? I have made no attempts to distance myself from the anti-copy protection campaign, and have freely associated my name with it. Inferring that anyone associated with the campaign is a pirate border on libellous. Mike's in for some fun, I've not lit all the fireworks yet. Back to top

Blue Dolphin Group: Members Posts: 1232 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Aug. 02 2003, 19:46 Well, c'mon. He's right about the recording company being in a lot of trouble. If people wouldn't share so much and buy records more, they would probably infest in fresh new talent. Problem is, as discussed here, their method of attacking the sharing; the copy protection. Also, the price of the cd is waaaay to high. This is also to be blamed to the goverments of the countries and their absurt high taxes. But that's not going to change for a while looking at the economical state the world is in today. Personally, I didn't have any problem with this so far (except for the price of the cd) and I still am continuieng buying Mike Oldfield's records in the future! -------------- -The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it- Mike Oldfield - 1980 Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Aug. 02 2003, 21:23 Quote (Blue Dolphin @ Aug. 03 2003, 00:46) If people wouldn't share so much and buy records more, they would probably infest in fresh new talent. The sad thing is, I don't think they would. The industry always has preferred safe bets over risks... The industry says it's in trouble. One problem is I don't think they're giving honest figures - certainly some analyses of industry figures has shown that some of the reason for the drop in unit sales is that not so many records have been released as in previous years. In some areas it also appears that sales are rising rather than falling, though I've currently done little of my own research on this matter, so I can't speak with much authority on it. Figures from the record industry certainly have to be questioned - when audits are done at large record companies, all sorts of discrepancies have been revealed (though again I should stress I've not audited record companies myself, so this is hearsay coming from those who have), and curiously always in the company's favour... I still suspect that much of the drop in sales comes because people don't feel that the music on offer is worth being paid for. I will admit, however, that there are a certain number of people who just want to get something for nothing - I do know some people who own copies of albums on CDR (and no, I won't make any for them when they ask...that probably offends some people, but I won't do it), but then...I also knew people who had large collections of illegal tapes, and they were perfectly happy listening to those instead of buying them on vinyl. Some of the figures that the record industry give out are based on the numbers of CDRs sold. That's making the assumption that all CDRs are used to pirate music. That's not true - I use a fair number of CDRs, for storing data and transferring audio which I have full permission to copy, and I know I'm not the only person who uses them for those sorts of things. The fact that I know how much they like to distort their figures means I can't really believe anything they say. I'm sure that piracy is damaging sales, as it always has done, but the question is, just how much? The fact that some piracy is occurring also doesn't give Mike the right to accuse everyone of pirating his CDs without good reason to. He's just trying to avoid the real issue, as the record companies are. Back to top

Fox Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: Aug. 03 2003, 00:55 Doesn't sound greedy to me.  Sounds more like uninformed.  If you take the name Copy Protection Software, it doesn't sound fendish, does it?  If someone told you the software "Simply prevents pirates from digitally copying the CD," you wouldn't think that's a bad thing. The problem is if you ask the question "how?" More than likely that's all they've told Mike (the results without the question of how it works...or doesn't work), and because there doesn't seem to be reason for concern I'd bet Mike hasn't tried to play the CD on a computer CD-ROM drive. After all, if he was ignorant of the fact that Tres Lunas wasn't released in the USA, why should we expect him to be informed of how the cp works and what it does? The moral of this interview is obvious: find out before you comment.  I hope to live up to my own advice someday Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Aug. 03 2003, 03:40 I agree that it's uninformed. But I'll stick with ignorant - the fact that he knows there's been some fuss shows that he's seen the complaints. He obviously hasn't read the complaints, and I'd say that it looks an awful lot like he's chosen to ignore them (though if I wanted to make a comment in a similar vein to Mike's, I'd say he just thinks that because he can't read). The fact that he chooses to ignore them speaks volumes - I'd say it's his business to be concerned about whether people are enjoying what he's producing. If he's not concerned about the fact that people aren't able to enjoy his music because they can't play it, he might as well not bother putting any music on the CDs in the first place. If people aren't happy with what he's producing, it'll end up reflecting in the sales (looks like it already has, considering that it gained lower chart positions in many places than Tres Lunas). I would agree that he's probably been told very little by the record company. Macrovision have produced a very slick FAQ about the system, which sounds very reassuring, but at the same time gives away virtually no facts at all. The question which he should indeed have asked is "How does it work?", as he should really be asking about any 'enhancements' proposed by the record company (I'm surprised he hasn't learnt from his experiences with Virgin how shifty record companies can be). It does sometimes rather look like he's just ignoring that there might be a problem because he is concerned not with quality but simply with making money... Back to top

MO fan Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: Aug. 03 2003, 12:18 Quote (Korgscrew @ Aug. 02 2003, 18:33) Mike's in for some fun, I've not lit all the fireworks yet. Well I hope you can do something about it (any hints ?), because as individual buyers of records, we cannot make our opinions felt, except to comment here and return the Copy protected CD. Which I and many others have. What worries me now, is that this copy protection will continue on to Mikes next record. As going by the Guardian, he does not seem to give a monkeys about his fan base. Yet we see the 'frustration and anger' caused over this, just by looking at this site and other similar ones. If this copy protection continues and we cannot play future albums correctly, as we want, then it will unfortunatly force us all to become what they dont want, pirates of music. The music industry seems to be going down a very suicidal path. Cheers MO fan   Back to top

maria Group: Members Posts: 928 Joined: July 2002 Posted: Aug. 03 2003, 16:33 i didn't take my copy back as it works both in my portable player and in my computer, played in the computer i've got the jump between tracks but i was told it was not a fault of the cd and well as i've experienced the same with other albums i found honest to keep it even being annoying. then what i want is just to state my opinion about the guardian's interview cause when i've read it, i've been shocked by such an unpleasant attitude... i can't believe he is ignorant about what has happened with the copy protection in his case, damaged equipment and a lot of people put off by the low quality of the music finally got through the copy protection system. i simply don't believe that. what i think is that he's angry about and has tried to get rid of the guardian's question answering with the most obvious and easy answer "copy protection is for avoiding pirates, so just pirates are supporting this campaign" would be the sum... i think he must be puzzled by all this and has avoided facing the most important thing about the absurd of that system that is what has made this campaign be born, the fact that the people who has supported him along years buying all his stuff is who is being damaged, not pirates. it's so simple to understand... i honestly don't think he is unaware of that... i know he's human, like someone said, but for me that answer has been a great mistake cause now, if he were really honest and brave, should be trying to fix that damn problem that is making his beloved dream become a nightmare instead of speaking on a newspaper like through the company's throat... in that poll about copy protection i said that if the cd didn't play in my equipment i would ask for the refund. now i want to add that i will never buy again a copy protected cd, of course, not even his. i'm starting to think that maybe some people are right saying that he's losing "something" and believe me when i say i'd be sad about it. -------------- ...morning and evening i'm flying, i'm dreaming... Back to top

oldfield_fan Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: May 2001 Posted: Aug. 03 2003, 18:17 Hm... this is indeed a sad situation, but I don't think it's fair to blame people copying CDs now and then, as soon as the sales go down. Of course the music industry has its ups and downs, and there may be many reasons. You won't prevent the thiefs that sells music illegaly in a big scale by using a simple copy protection like this, so why restrain the usual customer? Personally I think a reasonable amount of "piracy" to the circle of acquaintances will only benefit the artists in the long run. One reason may be that the high prices of music CDs has increased the competition with DVDs. I also think people are simply starting to get bored with compilation albums, like best of the decade and various themes with mixed artists that has been selling so much lately. At least to me, it's more appealing to put together an album with my very own favourites. Also, when buying a commercial compilation I rather feel I'm supporting the record company than a certain artist, and I don't like that feeling. Anyway... In general I don't have anything against copy-protection as long as it works, but in the case of protecting music I haven't seen any acceptable solution yet. So please, don't bother with protection if it doesn't work. If you don't want to listen to this advice, then at least make CDs suffering from todays destructive copy-protection much cheaper than a normal quality CD. (heh, like that's going to happen...) I was a bit surprised of your statement, Mike. I admit, I do copy your music sometimes, but please don't call me a pirate! With all respect, it's often the best way to promote you and your music, and I would never do it if I thought it would be to your disadvantage! Best wishes / Johan Back to top

Tati The Sentinel Group: Members Posts: 3360 Joined: Feb. 2002 Posted: Aug. 04 2003, 12:22 Is it nice to see that Tubular Bells 2003 is not in the charts anymore in the UK,because of all that fuss about CP,Mike? TB II and III did the charts.... -------------- "But it's always the outsider, the black sheep, that becomes the blockbuster." - Mike Oldfield, 2014 "I remember feeling that I'd been judged unfairly and that I was going to prove them wrong." - Peter Davison, 2011 Back to top

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