Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

Pages: (8) < 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 >

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

Topic: Good\Bad guitarist< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Sir Mustapha Offline




Group: Musicians
Posts: 2802
Joined: April 2003
Posted: Jan. 04 2005, 08:53

Well, Raven, I wouldn't say the guitar is being ignored. But in fact, I'd say the guitar is being raped nowadays. If you look closely, many pop "bands" or such do use a guitar. But what you hear is always the same power chords tearing into the big, bombastic chorus. It's always the same thing, and it does annoy me immensely.

And now... the difference between today and in the 70's is that now, we have MTV. The world is smaller, the population is bigger, and fashion sells like water. It wasn't quite like that in the 70's. The world is indeed falling.


--------------
Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
Back to top
Profile PM WEB 
Alan D Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 3670
Joined: Aug. 2004
Posted: Jan. 04 2005, 13:08

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ July 20 2004, 12:43)
I, personally, think we just don't need people like Britney in this world. There is such an industry behind her, such an ugly, disgusting scheme, a cold, mechanised business, that I'm positive we don't need her. It's not art, it's not culture, it's truly not a honest business.

Couldn't you have said the same about Elvis? I mean - if those are the reasons for dismissing Ms Spears (and I wouldn't know whether she should be dismissed, because I don't listen to her) - then aren't they also reasons for dismissing (for example) Mr Presley? (He also was 'just' a performer.)

It's never been an honest business, has it?
Back to top
Profile PM 
^NabLa^ Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 187
Joined: Oct. 2001
Posted: Jan. 04 2005, 13:54

Comparing Spears with Elvis is not fair. First of all, Elvis was a groundbreaking freakin bastard on the stage... back in 1960 I mean. Not only he sung good songs, he wrote most of them. Britney is only a couple of breasts that can barely sing in only one music style, gifted with little brain and no compositive skills (and no hope of ever getting them). Nothing more. There's no possible comparison between Britney and Elvis. You can, of course, compare the industry behind them. Because, decades aside, it is the same.

--------------
^NabLa^
Back to top
Profile PM WEB 
Korgscrew Offline




Group: Super Admins
Posts: 3511
Joined: Dec. 1999
Posted: Jan. 04 2005, 18:07

Andrés Segovia famously called the electric guitar an abomination. If we go by his reckoning, the guitar's been being raped ever since the early pioneers of the instrument put electric guitars in the hands of the masses. Perhaps he had a point...

Of course, dismissing the electric guitar as an abomination would also be ignoring the skill and beauty in the playing of people like Mike. It can be a hugely offensive sounding instrument, but it can also be an incredibly delicate sounding instrument - it depends whose hands it's in.

As jsamsworth pointed out (paraphrasing Mike) in the first post in this thread, though, rock guitarists can be quite a backward lot sometimes. The majority of players do just bash out chords, or run up and down the same pentatonic scales...that's been going on ever since it became a 'popular' instrument, one which people feel they don't have to sit down and study in order to be able to play, one which doesn't have such a 'serious' atmosphere surrounding it which puts of anyone who doesn't have a view of becoming a virtuoso. It's not wrong...it's fun...
It's not a new thing that such music gets recorded and sold either - the punk music of the late 70s saw a rise of anti-virtuosos. People enjoyed the music because it was loud and had attitude, and expressed things which the listeners could relate to, rather than because they were blown away by the skill and complexity of the playing. Record companies were standing by to cash in on that movement (that was one of Mike's big complaints about Virgin, the fact that they turned so quickly towards punk and away from him), and they continue to do similar with modern groups which are popular with the young. It does become formulaic, but pop music has been for ages - sure the 60s had The Beatles, but it also had a whole shedload of singers, who'd sing numbers written by industry songwriters and played by session musicians (usually the same session musicians - the hits recorded in the UK in the 60s were mostly performed by a very small selection of musicians from off the session circuit)...all done to the same old pop formulae. It may have got worse, become exaggerated, but such phenomenon aren't really anything new.

It is partly just an instinct thing...people follow...some of it's to do with the way people are brought up, though not exclusively. People learning the guitar very often want to learn to play like the artists they listen to, and often they don't progress a lot further, so the same things get passed down from one generation to the next.

It's not exclusive to guitarists though...an awful number of people making music with computers these days seem to end up creating stuff which mostly sounds the same. It's the same with all styles and methods of music creation, I feel - it takes an awful lot of effort to come up with something that doesn't come across as run of the mill.
Back to top
Profile PM 
raven4x4x Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1535
Joined: Jan. 2002
Posted: Jan. 04 2005, 20:36

After re-reading my previous post, perhaps I am guilty of complaining that the music that I love is no longer popular. Yesterday I watched an episode of the documentary series 'Dancing in the Street' about the development of popular music. It's quite an interesting series, and this episode was about punk music: the Sex Pistols, the Clash etc. While I was watching, I realized that fans of music that I might call over simplistic (or just plain unmusical) are looking for totally different things from their music. I happen to believe that being a good instrumentalist is important, and that music should have a certain depth and complexity to it like most of Mike's. However, genres like Punk and Pop are totally different styles of music, where different things are important. With punk it's the rebelliousness, the message of the words, making a statement etc. With pop the words also seem to be more important that the music, along with the image of the singer. We're all just looking for different things in our music, and calling a certain style of music bad when it doesn't give you what you want is kind of unfair, because it often doesn't want to give you those things either.

--------------
Thank-you for helping us help you help us all.
Back to top
Profile PM 
familyjules Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1190
Joined: May 2004
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 04:20

I think you're getting the hang of it there, Raven.  I certainly don't look for complexity in music - I look for artistic expression and this could be beauty or defiance or whatever.  I look for passion but I also favour melody.  The thing is that I can find melody in things that you may find 'unmusical' - we'd just have to agree to disagree.

One kind of music that bugs me is where there's lots of musical ability and complexity but no artistic expression or connection to my soul.  This music leaves me cold and I'd rather have some honest to goodness uncomplicated rock and roll music over it any time.

Jules


--------------
I like beer and I like cheese
Back to top
Profile PM 
Holger Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1506
Joined: Feb. 2003
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 04:29

Quote (^NabLa^ @ Jan. 04 2005, 19:54)
Britney is only a couple of breasts that can barely sing in only one music style, gifted with little brain and no compositive skills (and no hope of ever getting them). Nothing more.

Isn't that just what people said about Elvis at the time? (Except the part about the breasts of course.)
Back to top
Profile PM 
raven4x4x Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1535
Joined: Jan. 2002
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 05:18

Oh, I'm not saying I can't appreciate simplicity in music. Artists like The Who, Harry Chapin, Steeleye Span etc don't exactly do complex music, but they are all quality musicians playing quality pieces, whether songs or instrumentals, and I appreciate their musical ability. The reason I love these artists however, along with Mike, Pink Floyd, Yes etc is that their music has what I can best describe as emotional resonance. The music gives me feeling or imagery, whether sad, happy, energetic etc. This is all-important to me. Without this, I (usually) simply won't like it. Pop, rap, punk and other genres do not tend to have that emotional resonance for me, and the point I was trying to make above is that emotional resonance is not a vital component of these genres. The words, the message and attitude of the lyrics, and in pop's case the image and 'dance-ability' of the music are more important. That's what I meant when I said that pop fans and I are looking for different things in music. The point about quality musicianship was made because it takes a real musician to play with feeling, but anyone can pick up a guitar and sing about love.

--------------
Thank-you for helping us help you help us all.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Sir Mustapha Offline




Group: Musicians
Posts: 2802
Joined: April 2003
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 05:22

Well, nobody talks about Britney anymore - in a positive light, at least. That isn't true for Elvis. Besides, whatever Elvis was, he was playing music that was new and exciting, and it did influence certain major artists years later. He was a pop icon, of course, but you can't say he was just another one in the middle of hundreds of clones. The same can't be said about Britney. She was just a rehash of 80's female artists remade for the 90's. She was Kilye Minogue turned into Madonna, and nothing more.

About the guitar: the kind of guitar playing I was talking about - the one used by session guitarists backing pop musicians, for example - is incredibly annoying because it's NEITHER offensife, NOR delicate nor anything else. It's just the same power chords and the same tone, not an ounce of personality! I'd prefer Kurt Cobain smashing his guitar to pieces than some faceless drone treating it like nothing.


--------------
Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
Back to top
Profile PM WEB 
familyjules Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1190
Joined: May 2004
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 05:36

Quote (raven4x4x @ Jan. 05 2005, 05:18)
Oh, I'm not saying I can't appreciate simplicity in music. Artists like The Who, Harry Chapin, Steeleye Span etc don't exactly do complex music, but they are all quality musicians playing quality pieces, whether songs or instrumentals, and I appreciate their musical ability. The reason I love these artists however, along with Mike, Pink Floyd, Yes etc is that their music has what I can best describe as emotional resonance.

I mostly agree with what you're saying, just two points....

1) Personally I don't find Yes's music particularly emotional - so I suppose that emotional resonance is in the ear of the beholder...

2) To give Pete Townshend and The Who their due - some of Pete's stuff for The Who was fairly complex.  His chords are certainly too tricky for me to play along with much of the time and in his pioneering use of early synthesisers for the Who's Next album, Pete was surely pushing the envelope of rock music at that time.

Jules


--------------
I like beer and I like cheese
Back to top
Profile PM 
familyjules Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1190
Joined: May 2004
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 05:37

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Jan. 05 2005, 05:22)
About the guitar: the kind of guitar playing I was talking about - the one used by session guitarists backing pop musicians, for example - is incredibly annoying because it's NEITHER offensife, NOR delicate nor anything else. It's just the same power chords and the same tone, not an ounce of personality! I'd prefer Kurt Cobain smashing his guitar to pieces than some faceless drone treating it like nothing.

Amen to that, Sir M!!

Jules


--------------
I like beer and I like cheese
Back to top
Profile PM 
raven4x4x Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1535
Joined: Jan. 2002
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 05:39

Elvis was the first artist to popularize rock and roll. Yes, people said he was bad because he did things that no-one of his popularity had done before, and the traditionalists were frightened of this new musical style. They even said he was evil, with his provocative dancing ready to corrupt the minds of the young. But then again, they said jazz was evil.  

By the way, in response to the replies that were posted while I was writing this message, I was refering to Who albums such as Live at Leeds, the sort of rock songs without synthesisers or multiple overdubs that still sound great. And yes, emotional resonance certainly is in the ear of the beholder, or else we'd all like the same music and we wouldn't be having this discussion. And Sir M's point re-enforces my opinions on quality musicians, guitarists who can play with personality and self expression, not sounding exactly like those who have gone before.

Well, this has gotten on to a different topic than what was originally planned, probably because asking whether Mike's a good guitarist will really only get you one answer. Really, is there any fan who doesn't think he's a good guitarist?  ;)


--------------
Thank-you for helping us help you help us all.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Alan D Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 3670
Joined: Aug. 2004
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 07:28

Just to clarify: I wasn't comparing Elvis with Britney at all. I was just commenting that the reasons that had been given for dismissing her were also reasons that could be used for dismissing Elvis. My point is - they weren't good reasons for dismissing Ms Spears.

Back to the main course: Mike Oldfield as guitarist. He astounds me. His best guitar-playing lifts me out of myself into an awesome realm of music and emotion in a way that no other guitarist has ever even approached. So I guess.... well, he must be pretty good.

(Raven - we must chat sometime about Steeleye Span! )
Back to top
Profile PM 
familyjules Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1190
Joined: May 2004
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 07:36

Quote (raven4x4x @ Jan. 05 2005, 05:18)
The point about quality musicianship was made because it takes a real musician to play with feeling, but anyone can pick up a guitar and sing about love.

I just re-read Raven's post and noticed this point.  I don't agree.  I'm a very basic musician but I can play with great feel and emotion.  Neil Young isn't the most technical of players, but his feel is immense and overwhelming - so much so that he dwarfs more technically able musicians IMO.

And not everyone can pick up a guitar and sing about love, and even if they do, it's still hard to do well.  Some of my favourite songs are by guitar players singing about love - it's amazing just how many great variations can still be found on this most fundamental of themes!

Jules


--------------
I like beer and I like cheese
Back to top
Profile PM 
Ugo Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 5495
Joined: April 2000
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 19:48

I don't know whether or not this is worth anything here :), but I'll repeat something I already said somewhere else: I think it's somewhat wrong to judge how good or how bad is Mike as a guitarist, because he's a multi-instrumentalist. To me he's a good guitarist just as much as he's a good mandolinist, bassist, keyboardist, percussionist etc. :)

--------------
Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
Back to top
Profile PM 
raven4x4x Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1535
Joined: Jan. 2002
Posted: Jan. 05 2005, 20:51

Quote (Ugo @ Jan. 05 2005, 07:48)
I think it's somewhat wrong to judge how good or how bad is Mike as a guitarist, because he's a multi-instrumentalist.


I don't think it's wrong at all. Mike is one of the best guitarists I've ever heard, maybe the best, and being a multi-instrumentalist doesn't change that.

<Edited much later in response to familyjules >

Quote (familyjules @ Jan. 04 2005, 19:36)
Neil Young isn't the most technical of players, but his feel is immense and overwhelming - so much so that he dwarfs more technically able musicians IMO.


My definition of a real musician has very little to do with technical ability. It is that ability to play with feeling that makes a musician good. There are very few musicians around with as much talent as Neil Young.

Quote (familyjules @ Jan. 04 2005, 19:36)
I'm a very basic musician but I can play with great feel and emotion.


Then maybe your a better musician than you think. I suppose the sign of real genius is if you can write music with feeling, rather than play other people's stuff. If you can, then you are really good.


Quote (familyjules @ Jan. 04 2005, 19:36)
And not everyone can pick up a guitar and sing about love, and even if they do, it's still hard to do well.


I'm afraid I really don't have anything to say to this point, because I still don't know how I truely feel. It's almost as if I'm making my arguement up as I go along  :p


--------------
Thank-you for helping us help you help us all.
Back to top
Profile PM 
moonchildhippy Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1807
Joined: Dec. 2004
Posted: Jan. 12 2005, 20:33

Britney Spears better than Mike Oldfield:O???????  What IS the world coming to!!!!!  Ms Spears is just a manufactured pop star.  I bet she won't be making a 30th Anniversary version of any of her albums   :O .

Sorry had to get that off my chest :D , back to the debate.  Iwould rank Mike up there with Jimi Hendrix, Brian May, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton and Dave Gilmour, as one of the greatest guitarists.  Mike always seems to be overlooked ,when it comes to guitarists :O .


--------------
I'm going slightly mad,
It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad

If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come.


I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health


"Part time hippy"

I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS

BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!!
Back to top
Profile PM 
familyjules Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1190
Joined: May 2004
Posted: Jan. 13 2005, 05:32

Quote (raven4x4x @ Jan. 05 2005, 20:51)
I'm afraid I really don't have anything to say to this point, because I still don't know how I truely feel. It's almost as if I'm making my arguement up as I go along  :p

LOL.  Fair enough - I admire your honesty!

Jules


--------------
I like beer and I like cheese
Back to top
Profile PM 
familyjules Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1190
Joined: May 2004
Posted: Jan. 13 2005, 05:33

Quote (moonchildhippy @ Jan. 12 2005, 20:33)
Mike always seems to be overlooked ,when it comes to guitarists :O .

Ain't that the truth?!?!  That always niggles me too.

:(

Jules


--------------
I like beer and I like cheese
Back to top
Profile PM 
Canadian Steve
Unregistered





Posted: April 14 2005, 21:29

As a person who has been playing for the better part of 15 years... all it takes is to influence one person to be great and obviously he has influenced so many.  It seems that most of the world's best guitarists have led obscure lives and rarely has seen the spotlight unless marketed to the mainstream public.. which Mike thankfully has not.

Hardly anyone knew about Stevie Ray until after he died....he is just one example of another guitarist who never saw the blessings he gave the world.  Mike has given so much to so many people.  All of my guitar playing has been influenced by three people.  I saw SRV live a month before he died and he made me want to pick up the guitar... I saw Tublular Bells 2 live on televsion at 2am in the early 90s and couldn't sleep the rest of the night because I was so inspired.  Mike has been a huge inspiration to my playing and much of the time I fool around with either copying his licks or making my own to his music.  I will admit however that it is hard to keep up with him sometimes.

To say he is a bad guitars is absolutely shameful... yes indeed he somewhat defys the classic guitar player by being such a well-rounded musician (capable of playing every instrument) and his music is often very different that what people would expect but he has always been true to himself and to his music.   I cannot think of anyone else who can so easily bring classical guitar style into new age, blues, rock, dance or whatever style he plays next and make it sound like it always belonged.

By the way.. the third inspiration is another obscure and relatively unknown guitarist who although being widely revered in the guitar world, the general public have no clue of the beauty of his gift... Eric Johnson.
Back to top
146 replies since Jan. 08 2001, 17:17 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

Pages: (8) < 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 >






Forums | Links | Instruments | Discography | Tours | Articles | FAQ | Artwork | Wallpapers
Biography | Gallery | Videos | MIDI / Ringtones | Tabs | Lyrics | Books | Sitemap | Contact

Mike Oldfield Tubular.net
Mike Oldfield Tubular.net