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Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 14 2008, 13:13 Years and years ago I made a really big effort to enjoy opera. I was successful with Wagner, and I was successful with Puccini, but made almost no headway with anything else. In fact, I found most opera to be almost unbearable to listen to. So I moved on. But a few months ago I heard a bit of Massenet's opera Cendrillon (Cinderella) and thought it sounded surprisingly lovely, so I started digging into other late nineteenth century French operas, and found myself shocked by how much I was now able to enjoy them - shocked partly because I'd allowed my prejudice to blind me for so long, but also shocked by the stunning quality of the music, which is so very, very French, and like nothing else I know. All this exploration was through recordings of course. Well, a couple of days ago I discovered that Gounod's Romeo and Juliette was on at the Lowry Centre at Salford Quays, performed by Opera North. I'd already missed the first performance, but they were doing it again (for the final time) last night, so I took the plunge. It was just fabulous. Three hours may sound like a long time, but it just whizzed by in a brilliant lyrical outpouring of music that leaves me aching for more. It's a long time since I went to an opera, so I didn't know that these days there are screens with English subtitles - very unobtrusive, but clearly visible even from the most distant, cheapest seats (like ours! ), and just a glance whenever necessary is enough to understand completely what's going on. It was alarming to see how many empty seats there were. Opera has had a bad press for so long (for various reasons) that I can understand why people would stay away; and yet I was astonished by how easy it was to enjoy this. There was nothing highbrow, nothing snooty about it. The subtitle screens mean you don't actually need to know anything about the plot beforehand. It wasn't even expensive - tickets only cost half as much as the last Dylan show I went to. But I fear for the future of such things with so many empty seats. But the main reason I'm posting this, apart from the pleasure of just chatting about something I enjoyed, is that, gloriously, you never can tell what may lie around the next corner. Things can and do happen that shake our prejudices - and suddenly this vast landscape of new music has opened up which at the moment seems inexhaustible, and which just a year ago was an entirely closed book. The moral seems to be: never write anything off, once and for all. Always keep an open mind. You never know how you may change. Now, where's my Amarok CD? Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: June 15 2008, 02:00 I certainly have my own blinkers. As much as I enjoy some light/comic opera, I get a strong urge to run the other way whenever I get a mere whiff of serious opera. This may be due to one of my earliest exposures to opera being Richard Strauss' Elektra. As a young teen, I'd watched it on PBS and was deeply disturbed. Mostly by the story content, but also by the lack of catchy tunes! Much of my exposure to French opera is limited to film soundtracks and TV commercials ("Flower Duet", anyone?). I do have a CD set of Auber's "Le Domino Noir" and a compilation CD "Carnaval!: French Coloratura Arias" performed by Sumi Jo. One of my favorites on the latter is Gretry's "Je romps la chaine qui m'engage". -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 15 2008, 05:11 Elektra would be a tough ride at any stage, let alone so early, I think! The flower duet is one of those things that's so exquisite that it can survive the commercial hammering it's taken (if only just). Have you heard the whole of Lakme? It's non-stop tunes from beginning to end - one of the most continuously lyrical things I know, and there's a superb recording of it with Natalie Dessay, see here. I don't have Sumi Jo's 'Carnaval', but I do have her 'Les Bijoux' which is a similar collection. She has a towering reputation, I know, but my ears find her a bit piercingly shrill, and I veer more towards singers like Frederica von Stade (whom I'd gladly walk over hot coals to hear). Her early collection of French arias is one of my tiptop favourites - see here. You might like to try the samples of tracks 4 and 5 (though they're ludicrously short) to get a sense of what she sounds like. Very different to Sumi Jo! My guess is that our tastes in this area may only slightly overlap (with things like Lakme), at least at present. I go for the later 19th century stuff, because I still have a lot of difficulty with those florid yodel-like soprano embellishments you tend to get in the earlier operas - but I think you may be more firmly planted in that earlier era, SP. Yes? Back to top

Matt Group: Admins Posts: 1186 Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: June 15 2008, 05:44 Quote (Alan D @ June 14 2008, 18:13) But the main reason I'm posting this, apart from the pleasure of just chatting about something I enjoyed, is that, gloriously, you never can tell what may lie around the next corner. Things can and do happen that shake our prejudices - and suddenly this vast landscape of new music has opened up which at the moment seems inexhaustible, and which just a year ago was an entirely closed book. The moral seems to be: never write anything off, once and for all. Always keep an open mind. You never know how you may change. I want to agree with what you say here Alan but I know my own prejudices can be hard to overcome at times. I find the vocal style of opera singers - particularly female - too "warbly". Hayleys various performances of "On My Heart" are a good example, I love the sound of her voice on the studio version but find she is heading into warbling territory on the Bilbao performance and I am not enjoying it as much. I have always, as far back as I can remember, liked a "purer" sweeter sound than you tend to find in Opera.  I am not sure that this personal preference will ever change. Doesn't mean that I have no respect for opera. I am sure it is very well constructed, performed and emotional for those who can appreciate it. I think this links to another thread going on here at the moment. I can respect it but that doesn't mean I will necessarily ever like it myself. But I accept it is a worthy sentiment that we should I suppose *try* and keep an open mind to appreciating something we usually don't find enjoyable. Just in case! -------------- "I say I say I say I say, what's got three bottles and five eyes and no legs and two wheels" Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 15 2008, 06:48 Quote (Matt @ June 15 2008, 10:44) I am not sure that this personal preference will ever change. I've been saying the same, myself, for about 30 years, so this was quite a shock to my system! But it's hard to express the delight of suddenly finding that the barriers (which seemed so immovable for so long) have simply fallen down with almost no effort on my part. It seems that we change despite ourselves! Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: June 15 2008, 15:21 I've not heard all of Lakme, and now I'm wondering why, especially since I have Delibes' Coppelia. The first time I heard "The Flower Duet" was in the film "I've Heard the Mermaids Singing" from the late 80s. I don't remember a whole lot about the story, now, but that song stuck with me for years. I think I understand what you mean about Jo and shrillness. I was more attracted by the material than by the performer, though I do admire her ability. I'm sure I've heard Frederica von Stade, but she's not on any of my recordings. I agree - her voice is easier on the ears. There are times when I find "those florid yodel-like soprano embellishments" tiring, as well, but it's true that I often enjoy them. And I think my preferences are, in some ways, shaped by my limited experience in opera; I have yet to thoroughly explore. I have another compilation, Simple Gifts, which has some later French pieces I like, particularly Canteloube's. But, in Lesley Garrett, there's another voice that - while I think it's lovely - is not exactly to my taste. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: June 15 2008, 15:30 Quote (Matt @ June 15 2008, 05:44) I know my own prejudices can be hard to overcome at times. Same here, Matt. I like to think I have a broad range of musical taste (thanks to the influence of older brothers and access to the local library), but I know I still have issues with some things like Grand Opera, Country/Western, and Hip-Hop/Rap among others. At the same time, a part of me niggles at the back of my mind saying 'there's good stuff in there - you just gotta dig for it'. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 15 2008, 16:34 Quote (Sweetpea @ June 15 2008, 20:21) some later French pieces I like, particularly Canteloube's. Canteloube's Songs of Auvergne, you mean? There's nothing in the whole of music quite like them, is there? There's an outdoor feeling of wide skies and green breezy meadows about many of them, and the subjects are so strange. There's one which is basically about 'watching my dog running'; and another terribly cruel, really quite heartbreaking one, about a girl who wants to cross a river but can't because she has no boat, and is told that if she were pretty, she'd have a husband who would have bought her a boat by now. All the songs are full of the joys and hard knocks of life. Quote in Lesley Garrett, there's another voice that - while I think it's lovely - is not exactly to my taste. Yes, I know - the relatively small difference from one soprano voice to the next can be the difference between heaven and hell. And what's heaven for one person can be hell for another. The whole thing is very finely tuned. Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: June 17 2008, 02:10 Quote (Alan D @ June 15 2008, 16:34) Canteloube's Songs of Auvergne, you mean? There's nothing in the whole of music quite like them, is there? There's an outdoor feeling of wide skies and green breezy meadows about many of them, and the subjects are so strange. There's one which is basically about 'watching my dog running'; and another terribly cruel, really quite heartbreaking one, about a girl who wants to cross a river but can't because she has no boat, and is told that if she were pretty, she'd have a husband who would have bought her a boat by now. All the songs are full of the joys and hard knocks of life. There you go again making me want to run out to get a CD with your descriptions! I only have "Bailero", "L'aio De Rotso", and "Pastourelle", and haven't heard the rest of Songs of Auvergne. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 17 2008, 03:50 Quote (Sweetpea @ June 17 2008, 07:10) I only have "Bailero", "L'aio De Rotso", and "Pastourelle", and haven't heard the rest of Songs of Auvergne. Then I foresee a good deal of smiling in your future when you hear the others, SP. But trust me in this: get Frederica Von Stade's collection. Sony (the fools) seem to have allowed it to drift out of print in the States (though not in the UK) but you can still get a good used copy cheaply here. I have two other fine collections (by Veronique Gens and Netania Davrath), but they don't come even close to Frederica's ravishing evocations of love and loss, of sunshine and the freshness of morning dew, all sung by a voice that itself sounds like a warm breeze in the trees. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 26 2008, 04:48 Well, this thing is rolling downhill out of control. A few days ago the afternoon was sunny and warm, so I took a cup of coffee into the garden with a set of headphones, portable CD player, and a 2CD set of Massenet's Sapho. [A brief diversion about this dubious 'Opera D'Oro' 2CD set is in order: it's a very poor recording, originally taken from a 1973 radio broadcast; but the master tape must have been unavailable and so the transfer to CD was done from vinyl. The sleeve doesn't say this (it claims to be 'remastered' ), but the intrusive surface noise, spits and pops, and flabby bass tell me all I need to know. Also, the cast is pretty undistinguished - no big stars. The point is - these CDs put quite a few hurdles in the way of the listener.] Anyway, so there I was, basking in the sunlight, libretto on my knee, being drawn deeper and deeper into this musical drama, despite the poor recording and the undistinguished performances. By the time I got to the last act, I was actually weeping - throat choked up, tears flowing involuntarily, and this continued right through to the end. And this is not an isolated occurrence. The next day, Massenet's Manon had the same effect (if you get the chance to see the recent production on DVD, with Natalie Dessay, don't pass it up). There's something about these operas that evokes an aching sense of bitter-sweet, and a poignant heightened awareness of the sometimes inescapable tragic consequences that our actions and decisions can have. It's completely different to the vast suprahuman sweep of Wagner, or the strident melodrama of Puccini. These seem to come closer to the human condition as we really live it. But in truth I'm struggling to express all this. The source of the emotional upheaval isn't the libretto (invariably corny); the tears often come at moments when a mere hint of a motive is heard in the orchestra, recalling an incident from earlier in the opera that just touches the heart and releases the floodgates, but it seems like musical magic to me. I think I'm undergoing one of the most profound musical transitions of my life - and I'm shocked to discover that it's happening with music that I'd written off as 'unlistenable' decades ago. Back to top

Sweetpea Group: Members Posts: 1476 Joined: April 2007 Posted: June 27 2008, 16:50 It takes something special to draw such strong feelings, I think. And I wonder why music pulls my emotions more intensely than, say, images? After all, I don't recall ever weeping over a painting. Of course, combining the two can create even more powerful results. I've often wept during movies, usually when it has a stirring soundtrack. But then, I cried while watching "Kung Fu Panda", yesterday, so I may not be the best judge. Cinema is like opera, I guess - there are multiple mediums involved: music, visuals, and narratives. I think I was aiming for something profound, here, but my thought process has fizzled out. I'm enjoying Frederica's Songs of the Auvergne. I'm not reading the translations, yet, as I'm just absorbing the sounds, for now. It's really nice to make new discoveries like this, so thanks for the recommendation, Alan. -------------- "I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 27 2008, 18:21 Quote (Sweetpea @ June 27 2008, 21:50) I don't recall ever weeping over a painting. Pass the box of tissues, SP: I have, I'm afraid, and more than once. It usually happens when I come upon something unexpectedly - I remember a notable moment when I came across a Cezanne still life that I'd never seen before and hadn't expected to see, and then suddenly WHAM there it was, and in an instant its sheer perfection - the totality of it - the perfect juxtaposition of one form against another, of one colour against another, and the whole representing an extraordinarily lucid vision of what the world had the potentiality to be - I guess all those things hit me in one tidal wave of perception, and I just blubbed, there and then! The weird thing is that when it happens, we go back for more! We read it as a sign that we've really tapped into something powerful and life-enhancing - at least, I do. And yes, I agree about the cinema - that multimedia aspect of it means that it's a powerful assault on the senses when all of them come right. Quote I'm enjoying Frederica's Songs of the Auvergne. I found I grew to enjoy those Songs of Auvergne more and more as I became more familiar with the idiom. I wonder what it is about them that makes me think of 'outdoors'? Does that happen for you, too? Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4766 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 29 2008, 21:15 Quote (Alan D @ June 14 2008, 13:13) . Opera has had a bad press for so long (for various reasons) that I can understand why people would stay away; and yet I was astonished by how easy it was to enjoy this. There was nothing highbrow, nothing snooty about it. Is this the case in the UK? I was at a performance of The Magic Flutelast month (I had listened to "Taurus 2" earlier so was able to compare the two glockenspiel solos in close proximity!, and the theatre was full of people of all ages, all enjoying themselves. But then, The Magic Flute is an opera with something for everyone. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4766 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 29 2008, 21:23 Quote (Sweetpea @ June 15 2008, 02:00) IThis may be due to one of my earliest exposures to opera being Richard Strauss' Elektra. As a young teen, I'd watched it on PBS and was deeply disturbed. Mostly by the story content, but also by the lack of catchy tunes! I didn't like Elektra the first time, either, but I was expecting another Salome, which is one of my favourites. (The music when the executioner goes down into the cistern to decapitate John the Baptist is truly spine-chilling.) But I love it now, especially when Orestes goes in to murder Aegisthus with the axe. Truly operatic heavy metal!. I'm actually a bit of a Richard Strauss fan, possessing Ariadne on Naxos, Daphne, Die Agyptische Helena, Capriccio, and Die Liebe Der Danae. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 30 2008, 05:19 Quote (nightspore @ June 30 2008, 02:15) Quote (Alan D @ June 14 2008, 13:13) Opera has had a bad press for so long Is this the case in the UK? I think it's just a general (and largely incorrect) impression among people at large. There are a few opera venues where it's exclusively expensive, where it matters how you dress, and so on, and where I can tell from the tone that I'd feel uncomfortable there, even if I could afford it. And when opera goes through one of its periodic financial crises, the letters pages of newspapers often carry comments about its exclusivity, and dismiss its concerns because they affect only a tiny number of people. So there seem to be still a lot of people who think (mistakenly, on the whole) that 'it's not for the likes of me'. But generally speaking this isn't an issue in practice. I've just booked tickets for La Boheme at Blackpool and Carmen at Liverpool for later this year, and there's no suggestion of this sort of thing at such places. And the cost (even for really good seats) was only about the same as for a Dylan show. Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4766 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 30 2008, 07:51 Quote (Alan D @ June 30 2008, 05:19) . And the cost (even for really good seats) was only about the same as for a Dylan show. And given that a ticket has to go towards paying the salary of 50 to 100 people (the members of the orchestra, singers, conductor) rather than that of just one (who already has far too much money, at least by the social justice criteria expressed in his songs), the price of opera tickets is not unjustified at all. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: June 30 2008, 14:07 Quote (nightspore @ June 30 2008, 12:51) And given that a ticket has to go towards paying the salary of 50 to 100 people (the members of the orchestra, singers, conductor) rather than that of just one (who already has far too much money, at least by the social justice criteria expressed in his songs), the price of opera tickets is not unjustified at all. Exactly so. There's also a world of difference between the total box office revenue from an arena selling in excess of 10,000 tickets, and the small fraction of that at a typical opera performance. (To mitigate Dylan's case a little, I should point out that these days he always performs with a band - so it's half a dozen, not one. And of course he's now moved on a long way from those overtly socially conscious songs of the mid-60s. But, as with most artists who hover in 'genius' territory, I wouldn't want to be driven to defending them on any grounds other than artistic ones.) Back to top

nightspore Group: Members Posts: 4766 Joined: Mar. 2008 Posted: June 30 2008, 22:58 Quote (Alan D @ June 30 2008, 14:07) (To mitigate Dylan's case a little. . . . he's now moved on a long way from those overtly socially conscious songs of the mid-60s. But, as with most artists who hover in 'genius' territory, I wouldn't want to be driven to defending them on any grounds other than artistic ones.) So he no longer thinks social justice worth singing about? That's even worse! I think Dylan will be remembered, if he's remembered at all, as someone who simply reflected the spirit of his time. It's true that his lyrics are anthologized in respectable poetry publications (and so far as I know no one has made claims for Dylan's genius as a musician, only as a lyricist); but their complexity is often embarrassingly at odds with the extremely simple melodies (an example: Mr Tambourine Man) and end up sounding ironic. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: July 01 2008, 02:58 Quote (nightspore @ July 01 2008, 03:58) Quote (Alan D @ June 30 2008, 14:07) (To mitigate Dylan's case a little. . . . he's now moved on a long way from those overtly socially conscious songs of the mid-60s. But, as with most artists who hover in 'genius' territory, I wouldn't want to be driven to defending them on any grounds other than artistic ones.) So he no longer thinks social justice worth singing about? That's even worse! I think Dylan will be remembered, if he's remembered at all, as someone who simply reflected the spirit of his time. It's true that his lyrics are anthologized in respectable poetry publications (and so far as I know no one has made claims for Dylan's genius as a musician, only as a lyricist); but their complexity is often embarrassingly at odds with the extremely simple melodies (an example: Mr Tambourine Man) and end up sounding ironic. I'll choose not to rise to this bait, which seems deliberately provocative to me. Back to top

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