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Topic: Children's Music, Mike?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Music, the ancient language... Offline




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Posted: April 26 2003, 11:48

A few months ago I had some friends over at my home. We had a good time, until I played "On Horseback" on the cd-player. "Why are you putting on children's music?" was the reaction, en then I got really mad   :(  because IMO children's music (especially the over-commercialised ones) is the most terrible kind of music.
I recently got over it  ;) , and I'm wondering: can some of Mike's music be classified as children's music? I'm asking it, because I can't judge it objectively as I love Oldfield and hate children's music. What do you think?


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BOOsTER Offline




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Posted: April 26 2003, 14:49

not at all ;)

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Music, the ancient language... Offline




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Posted: April 29 2003, 08:23

I'll add something to my question.
A few years ago in my country, some young female singer had covered 'In dulci jubilo'. Stupid child-like instruments, and an irritating girl's voice singing 'falala' on it or something. So what aspect of Mike's music seperates it from children's music covers, you think?


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Vinz Offline




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Posted: April 30 2003, 05:56

Mike did some children songs...
"On Horseback" is one of them...
Don't forget also that "Blue Peter" is a music for a children TV Show on BBC.
And what do you think about "Froggy Went to Courting", "Don Alfonso", "In Dulci Jubilo", "Silent Night" and "Cuckoo Song" ?


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Music, the ancient language... Offline




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Posted: April 30 2003, 10:02

On horseback??? Never!! It's the finishing touch of Ommadawn!! :(  (If I only had some decent arguments... :/ )

Or maybe I have one: if the ones you mention are children songs, why are they on albums or singles with non-children tracks? MO's single, Boxed, Elements, Ommadawn, The Complete. That would be a commercial blunder, no? And silent night children's music??? Come on, you can't be serious! Such a lovely electric guitar playing a cultural theme! Aren't you just confusing 'happy' with 'children songs'?
Do you classify 'Vivaldi Concerto in C' and 'Polka' also as children's music then? :O


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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 30 2003, 10:26

I suppose the only way of defining what's children's music is to ask whether it was intended for or made by children. I'd say there was a difference between children's music and childish music, and that children liking something doesn't make it children's music.

On Horseback certainly has childish elements (I don't mean that in a negative way) and it also contains children singing, but whether that makes it children's music is a different matter.

I don't necessarily think that something being children's music has to be a negative thing, either - music meant for the enjoyment of the very young doesn't have to be the patronising rubbish it often is...
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Holger Offline




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Posted: April 30 2003, 12:37

Quote (Music, the ancient language... @ April 30 2003, 10:02)
On horseback??? Never!! It's the finishing touch of Ommadawn!! :(  (If I only had some decent arguments... :/ )

You might argue it's the finishing touch of Ommadawn because it is a childrens' song.
I also very strongly disagree that a piece of music written primarily for children has to be rubbish. I had a cassette of a childrens' radio play as a child that had this wonderful title melody, and to this day it is one of my very favourite pieces of music.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: April 30 2003, 14:09

If your so called friends don't like 'On Horseback' then obviously they're the wrong friends. I would say ditch them all and get new ones. :cool:
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Music, the ancient language... Offline




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Posted: April 30 2003, 14:47

Quote
If your so called friends don't like 'On Horseback' then obviously they're the wrong friends. I would say ditch them all and get new ones.  


Believe me, I felt like it at that moment! :D

Maybe there's a cultural issue here. If you say in Belgium something is children's music, that you mean it's the rubbish of rubbish, the cancer of the music market, low-quality noise for the idiots, made for the really intellectual inferiors, meant to wack your head while listening, etc... Or maybe this is a worldwide problem? Don't know. If it is, then my problem is just myself I guess.


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alex Offline




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Posted: May 02 2003, 16:46

I know that few of You want to read this,but I suggest to do that anyway. It is a really good passage from Zarathustra which lets one see the problem from another side...
Sometimes it seems a bit funny,but generally why not to pass serious matters in funny way...
I wish You good lecture and no more doubts about our Master.
Friedrich Nietzsche.
(is he writing about Wagner?!! )



              1. The Three Metamorphoses

 THREE metamorphoses of the spirit do I designate to you: how the
spirit becometh a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a
child.
 Many heavy things are there for the spirit, the strong
load-bearing spirit in which reverence dwelleth: for the heavy and the
heaviest longeth its strength.
 What is heavy? so asketh the load-bearing spirit; then kneeleth it
down like the camel, and wanteth to be well laden.
 What is the heaviest thing, ye heroes? asketh the load-bearing
spirit, that I may take it upon me and rejoice in my strength.
 Is it not this: To humiliate oneself in order to mortify one's
pride? To exhibit one's folly in order to mock at one's wisdom?
 Or is it this: To desert our cause when it celebrateth its
triumph? To ascend high mountains to tempt the tempter?
 Or is it this: To feed on the acorns and grass of knowledge, and for
the sake of truth to suffer hunger of soul?
 Or is it this: To be sick and dismiss comforters, and make friends
of the deaf, who never hear thy requests?
 Or is it this: To go into foul water when it is the water of
truth, and not disclaim cold frogs and hot toads?
 Or is it this: To love those who despise us, and give one's hand
to the phantom when it is going to frighten us?
 All these heaviest things the load-bearing spirit taketh upon
itself: and like the camel, which, when laden, hasteneth into the
wilderness, so hasteneth the spirit into its wilderness.
 But in the loneliest wilderness happeneth the second
metamorphosis: here the spirit becometh a lion; freedom will it
capture, and lordship in its own wilderness.
 Its last Lord it here seeketh: hostile will it be to him, and to its
last God; for victory will it struggle with the great dragon.
 What is the great dragon which the spirit is no longer inclined to
call Lord and God? "Thou-shalt," is the great dragon called. But the
spirit of the lion saith, "I will."
 "Thou-shalt," lieth in its path, sparkling with gold- a
scale-covered beast; and on every scale glittereth golden, "Thou
shalt!"
 The values of a thousand years glitter on those scales, and thus
speaketh the mightiest of all dragons: "All the values of things-
glitter on me.
 All values have already been created, and all created values- do I
represent. Verily, there shall be no 'I will' any more. Thus
speaketh the dragon.
 My brethren, wherefore is there need of the lion in the spirit?
Why sufficeth not the beast of burden, which renounceth and is
reverent?
 To create new values- that, even the lion cannot yet accomplish: but
to create itself freedom for new creating- that can the might of the
lion do.
 To create itself freedom, and give a holy Nay even unto duty: for
that, my brethren, there is need of the lion.
 To assume the ride to new values- that is the most formidable
assumption for a load-bearing and reverent spirit. Verily, unto such a
spirit it is preying, and the work of a beast of prey.
 As its holiest, it once loved "Thou-shalt": now is it forced to find
illusion and arbitrariness even in the holiest things, that it may
capture freedom from its love: the lion is needed for this capture.
 But tell me, my brethren, what the child can do, which even the lion
could not do? Why hath the preying lion still to become a child?
 Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a
game, a self-rolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.
 Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy
Yea unto life: its own will, willeth now the spirit; his own world
winneth the world's outcast.
 Three metamorphoses of the spirit have I designated to you: how
the spirit became a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a
child.-

 Thus spake Zarathustra. And at that time he abode in the town
which is called The Pied Cow.
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oblique Offline




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Posted: May 02 2003, 17:18

Quote
to create itself freedom for new creating


This is where I'm at right now.
Thanks Alex. Very enlightning.


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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: May 02 2003, 22:13

Well, Mike did say several times he liked children's music a lot, so of course he puts some of that elements in it. It can be frustating for people who don't know Mike's music that they won't like (believe me, I've had the same experiences). ;)

Music the acient language--> Dus toch maar niet naar Sesamstraat kijken? ;)

alex---> don't you ever fall asleep reading that stuff??? (that was a joke) ;)


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Music, the ancient language... Offline




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Posted: May 03 2003, 10:46

Blue Dolphin:
Bwa, da's toch nog wat anders. Da's al van toen ik klein was. Op een wonderbaarlijke manier heeft dat een plaats gekregen in mijn onderbewustzijn, net zoals Samson en zo... 't Is vooral die verschrikkelijke kindergroepjes die tegenwoordig als onkruid uit de grond springen en steeds in de media blijven opduiken. Als ik een dictator was, zou ik het verbieden! ;)  't Is een werkelijke parodie op muziek! Ik haat het!  :(  Hebben jullie in Nederland daar eigenlijk ook last van?

Alex:
I've read it three times, and I think I understand most of it now. But I don't understand what it has to do with the topic yet :D


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alex Offline




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Posted: May 03 2003, 12:25

Well, I mean, many pitiful things (like children) while turned into symbols,may mean more and cease to be as pitiful as in their original meaning...
Then-the description of a child (a spirit as a child, exactly) does not really put it in negative light.
Symbols,double meanings,transpositions etc... and we have no problem with understanding it,since our Master is to some extent a symbolist.

Also,reading this passage we may come to a conclusion that the actions and creations of a spirit-child are not useless and out of any sense at all.Besides,they even have some impact on development...
I guess that those,who commented on On Horseback this way did not take such interpretation under consideration, but anyway there is some basis to doubt their judgement...

-Purely theoretical,I know...
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: May 03 2003, 12:39

Music, the acient language---> en of we hier last van hebben. Idols bijvoorbeeld, maar ik probeer er zo weinig mogelijk aandacht aan te besteden, alhoewel je er in de media ermee wordt doodgegooid.  :/

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-The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it-

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Holger Offline




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Posted: May 03 2003, 14:37

Ancient & Blue Dolphin, why don't you share that with us? My Dutch sucks!  :)
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Music, the ancient language... Offline




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Posted: May 03 2003, 15:27

Alex:
And then there's of course the question to what extend the theoretical world can be converted to the normal one.  ;)
Nice piece of text, though. It gives some depth to an ordinary discussion. :cool:

Blue Dolphin:
Hebben jullie dan kinderen in jullie 'Idols'???

Holger:
Well, I suck at being friendly to germans  :D
No, just kinnin', but I understand. If someone would start talking German, I would be iritated to. Meine Deutch is auch nicht so güt...
But don't worry. As soon as I talk about something what might be interesting for a broad audiance, I'll do it in English. We're only talking about Dutch television shows,  you see...


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oblique Offline




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Posted: May 04 2003, 04:34

Music, the only thing disappointing is that we lack original children-programs on Dutch TV.
All we've got is Studio 100 terror! ;)


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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: May 04 2003, 05:40

Yup, and that Idols that I was talking about... they can be counted as children ;)

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Vinz Offline




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Posted: May 05 2003, 05:23

Quote
On horseback??? Never!! It's the finishing touch of Ommadawn!!

So, tell me why finishing Ommadawn, On Horseback can't be a song for children ?

Quote
Or maybe I have one: if the ones you mention are children songs, why are they on albums or singles with non-children tracks? MO's single, Boxed, Elements, Ommadawn, The Complete

Don't you have kids ?? When you're a parent and you love Mike, you and your children listen to Mike together...
And, by the way, in 1975, Don Alfonso with In dulci Jubilo on B-side and In Dulci Jubilo with On Horseback on B-side were released as singles... If it is not a clue, what it is ?

Quote
And silent night children's music???

I said it was a song for children, not made by children !

Quote
Come on, you can't be serious! Such a lovely electric guitar playing a cultural theme

Why songs for children must have no "lovely electric guitar" ?
Isn't 'Silent Night' a song that you learned when you were very young ??

Quote
Aren't you just confusing 'happy' with 'children songs'?

No, I don't think I am... The songs I've mentionned have so silly words (Don Alfonso, Froggy), that I think that they can be appreciated by young people, that's all... Silent Night and In Dulci Jubilo are Xmas' songs...

Quote
Do you classify 'Vivaldi Concerto in C' and 'Polka' also as children's music then?

Absolutly not  ;)


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