Tubular.net :: Mike Oldfield Forums Discussion, news, reviews, fan music, and more.
	Search :: Members :: Help :: Guidelines

Pages: (7) < 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 > [ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 11:54 Quote (raven4x4x @ Oct. 26 2005, 05:48) But that is totally subjective! I'm sure there are a lot of people who have the same opinion of that track as Alan does of Amarok, namely "what the hell?". Without wanting to be insulting, but wherever those people are, I'm sure that if music was in their hands, Rock music would have disappeared decades ago. Quote There's no way that those people are going to say that this anything other than 'fooling around'. I still don't know the criteria for choosing between fooling around and experimenting. You don't think the vocaloids are justified in terms of experimentation. I'd like to know what they would have to do in order to be justified. It's a bit of a very delicate affair, you know, to consider just what is experimental and what isn't. To put it simply and mildly, though, experimentation goes beyond "In the Nightshade... ... ... In the Nightshade..." and "Reeee-solution... ... ..." and "An-guh-meek, an-guh-meek..." if you understand me. Quote I remember when Revolver came out - I was about 17 I think - and we all listened to the weird stuff on Tomorrow Never Knows, and boggled at the weird coolness of it, and how profound it must be. I was as convinced as anyone else at the time. But actually, it was the Beatles just messing about. Definitely. But when a band is high on the weed, they kind of take their goofing off as a serious affair, don't they? I'm always reminded of John Lennon saying he wanted his voice sounding like a choir of Tibetan monks. It probably meant nothing, but they believed it did. And if it was just goofing off, I think George Martin wouldn't have put such an immense amount of care and effort into his work with them. If the Beatles didn't know, then he knew the potential of the music he was producing. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 12:42 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 26 2005, 10:36) ...while all our discussions go on in their endless circles. Absolutely. I'm beginning to realise how futile discussing this is becoming. It's back to the same old chestnut: perception. There's nothing more complicated. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 12:56 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 26 2005, 16:54) Without wanting to be insulting, but wherever those people are, I'm sure that if music was in their hands, Rock music would have disappeared decades ago. It's not insulting, but it does seem daft to suggest that those who are sceptical about the profundity of the gimmicks on Tomorrow Never Knows are the would-be stiflers of the progress of rock music! Come on Sir M - you know perfectly well that that stuff on there was just a bit of fun with little substance. Because it was the Beatles, and because they were talented guys, it was entertaining fun and at the time I really enjoyed it. I was there, and it was great! But forty years on, it wears a bit thin to be honest. Not because it's incomprehensible (after all, Dylan is incomprehensible often, too) but because it's a bit vacuous, really. If you find some value in it yourself, that's great. But Alex is quite right. It's purely a subjective matter, even though you insist it isn't. Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 13:01 Now now, guys, let's play nice. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 13:06 Quote (arron11196 @ Oct. 26 2005, 17:42) It's back to the same old chestnut: perception. There's nothing more complicated. Yep. Everything comes back to perception in the end. Clarity of perception is one of the things we most need, and one of the hardest to achieve. Blake: 'If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear as it is - infinite.' Ruskin: 'Hundreds of people can talk for one who can think, but thousands can think for one who can see' [or hear, one might add]. I suppose in all these discussion roundabouts, we're hoping for that moment of seeing something clearly that will make sense of things that have baffled us. And certainly one of the things that has baffled me, and still does, is my ambivalent response to L&S (to return to the topic! ) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 13:40 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 26 2005, 12:56) It's not insulting, but it does seem daft to suggest that those who are sceptical about the profundity of the gimmicks on Tomorrow Never Knows are the would-be stiflers of the progress of rock music! Come on Sir M - you know perfectly well that that stuff on there was just a bit of fun with little substance. Because it was the Beatles, and because they were talented guys, it was entertaining fun and at the time I really enjoyed it. I was there, and it was great! But forty years on, it wears a bit thin to be honest. Not because it's incomprehensible (Dylan is incomprehensible often, too) but because it's a bit vacuous, really. Well, substance is not in question here. I don't think the Beatles were real pioneers in terms of substance - apart from a couple of John compositions, their real revolution was in form, in the shape of the rock music to come. It was up to other bands to insert real content into the music the Beatles helped consolidate. Tomorrow Never Knows is pretty much that - form, sound, attitude, ideas. And just look at how many bands were influenced, directly or indirectly, by those ideas. If the reaction of the public and of the bands of the time was that kind of "horror", or that kind of "indifference" that Mike's work with Vocaloids causes in me, their revolutions would just disappear. And if the Beatles caused such reactions, what to think of The Velvet Underground? Pink Floyd? I'm not questioning whether such thing would be good or not - it just happened. And if the Beatles made such a feat, it's because their music did mean a lot to many people. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 13:44 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 26 2005, 16:54) Without wanting to be insulting, but wherever those people are, I'm sure that if music was in their hands, Rock music would have disappeared decades ago. Well you know, I think if rock music was solely in the hands of many of the people who have been fuelling the more extreme discussions about Light + Shade, rock music would have disappeared up its own backside years ago, a tragic reverse fart of nothingness. Profound nothingness, of course, but also egotistical, becoming boring on repeated listenings. It's amusing how all of Mike's perceived negative qualities are reflected in the fans who point the finger at them, actually. However, whether there's anyone out there disliking virtual vocalists for being a synthetic replication of a human, yet at the same time enjoying a different kind of synthetic replication of a human, I'd really not like to speculate... Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 13:52 Good point. So when does having an opinion blur into showing a 'nastier side' then Korgscrew? -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 13:54 Quote (Korgscrew @ Oct. 26 2005, 13:44) Well you know, I think if rock music was solely in the hands of many of the people who have been fuelling the more extreme discussions about Light + Shade, rock music would have disappeared up its own backside years ago, a tragic reverse fart of nothingness. Profound nothingness, of course, but also egotistical, becoming boring on repeated listenings. In another topic, that guy is looking for names for his new progressive rock band. I think you've just found a good candidate. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 13:56 Again you display your ability to make me laugh until I cry, Hiawatha. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 13:59 Quote (arron11196 @ Oct. 26 2005, 13:52) Good point. So when does having an opinion blur into showing a 'nastier side' then Korgscrew? Praising Radiohead's "Fitter, Happier", perhaps? -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 14:15 content deleted. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

arron11196 Group: Members Posts: 826 Joined: April 2005 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 14:26 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 26 2005, 13:59) Quote (arron11196 @ Oct. 26 2005, 13:52) Good point. So when does having an opinion blur into showing a 'nastier side' then Korgscrew? Praising Radiohead's "Fitter, Happier", perhaps? Funny you should mention that... I think Fitter, Happier is one of the most intruiging 'songs' I've ever heard. I also rarely ever play it. It certainly has quite a message. -------------- Arron J Eagling Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature. (insert the last 5 mins of Crises here) Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 14:34 Quote (arron11196 @ Oct. 26 2005, 14:26) I think Fitter, Happier is one of the most intruiging 'songs' I've ever heard. I also rarely ever play it. It certainly has quite a message. Yep, indeed - except I do listen to it, when I put on OK Computer. To me, it's a great use of a synthetic voice as an artistic statement, and I only mentioned it in here because I think I mentioned the song before in another thread, and I didn't want to be thought of as a contradictory and/or hipocrytical. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

jeremyroberts Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: June 2005 Posted: Oct. 26 2005, 19:15 Quote (raven4x4x @ Oct. 25 2005, 05:48) And on point three, can you please point me out an example of dodgy timing or sloppy guitar work anywhere on the album? Angelique 3'19": a big flaw. It's the only obvious one. I noticed it immediately. Back to top

Miguel Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 27 2005, 01:44 Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 26 2005, 05:38) His playing of 'Let there be light' at Katowice is on the brink of genius, despite what you call 'dodgy timing' etc. It's probably the most powerfully affecting piece of guitar playing I've ever heard. There are many times when any artist has to make a crucial choice between polishing and leaving alone. It's a very fine balance. Too much polishing takes the life from the work; too much roughness takes it over an edge where most people probably can't follow. The greatest work teeters on that brink - the rough edges are what Ruskin calls 'savageness'; it will be found in all the greatest works of art, where the artist has been working close to his limits. Listening now to the playing in No Man's Land Reprise, I find myself disagreeing with you completely. From the moment that acoustic guitar begins, it breathes life into the music and entirely captures my sympathy. The whole piece, short though it is, is for me one of the most moving pieces in the whole of Mike's oeuvre (yes, complete with saxotar) and a wonderful conclusion to the album (I switch it off at that point). Perhaps it needs to be listened to with the heart, rather than the head. That's one of the problems with L&S, I believe. A lot of it is too much craftsmanship and too little art. The clinically perfect timing of the synthetic instrumentation is like a piece of furniture that's had the life sandpapered and polished out of it. Ok, i don't really want to disapoint you but, although i LOVE that show and his performance on "Let there be light", notice for example that he plays some wrong scale notes on that solo(5:53/57). It's clearly a huge and risky mistake on his improvisation and its not the only one on that show. There's  a lot of mistakes, even in some simple melodies during that concert. I mean, Mike is claimed to be a respected guitarist/composer. I think he should be more carefull when he's playing... I also share the same opinion as you about the balance between roughness/polishing on music and art in general but you have to agree that roughness is not the same as "wrongness". Wrong notes or sloopy time playing as nothing to do with rough sound/play or rubato interpretation wich is something that i actually like... About the No Man's Land Reprise, well,i dont mean to sound pretencious but that was not an opinion. That was a fact! The rythm of his solo doesn't match with the rythm of the harmony in many spots of the song. But that's ok cause i still think that this track is one of Tr3s Lunas most inspired moments. It's very very beautiful but it should have been played more carefully, not only with his heart but also with his head to!   Greetings! Back to top

Miguel Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Oct. 27 2005, 01:58 Quote (jeremyroberts @ Oct. 26 2005, 19:15) Quote (raven4x4x @ Oct. 25 2005, 05:48) And on point three, can you please point me out an example of dodgy timing or sloppy guitar work anywhere on the album? Angelique 3'19": a big flaw. It's the only obvious one. I noticed it immediately. That's true, but maybe we are getting a little bit cruel on this one, i think.    I mean, it doesn't seem a flaw so big as you say. I can clearly notice it, but its perfectly bearable i supose...but yes, it's there indeed!   Back to top

jeremyroberts Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: June 2005 Posted: Oct. 27 2005, 03:28 yes it's not a wrong note, but it sounds like a short hesitation in the middle of a fluid solo. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 27 2005, 04:05 Quote (Miguel @ Oct. 27 2005, 06:44) About the No Man's Land Reprise, well,i dont mean to sound pretencious but that was not an opinion. That was a fact! The rythm of his solo doesn't match with the rythm of the harmony in many spots of the song. I can see what you mean - and I'm not disputing the existence of those slight drifts in timing. But they don't seem to me to be 'wrong'. It doesn't seem like carelessness, just part of the expression of some very sensitive playing, where the sound of the guitar is allowed to expand and breathe. Actually, it's the apparent lack of these slight (and human) drifts that causes problems for me in L&S and makes it sound too clinical. About Katowice: I think we must surely remember that this was a live show, not officially released, and not intended to be listened to over and again (as indeed I do). So I do think it needs a different approach. For me, the one or two bloops in Let There Be Light are a small price to play for the depth of feeling that he wrenches from his guitar on that occasion. He gets the depth of feeling because he's on the edge and willing to risk those mistakes. If you force him to play more safely you'd gain the perfection you want, but you'd lose the very life breath - that sense of being at the edge of what's possible - that makes it so special. (Incidentally I do think the later parts of the show fall off - as if he can't sustain that level of intensity.) Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 27 2005, 10:07 Miguel, I'm really interested in carrying on the discussion about the Katowice 'Let There Be Light', but I appreciate that it's way off topic for this thread - so I've picked up the story in a more suitable place, here: http://tubular.net/forums....ry56457 Back to top

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ] Pages: (7) < 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 >

Forums | Links | Instruments | Discography | Tours | Articles | FAQ | Artwork | Wallpapers
Biography | Gallery | Videos | MIDI / Ringtones | Tabs | Lyrics | Books | Sitemap | Contact


Mike Oldfield Tubular.net