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Topic: What is real?, A philosophical question inspired by MVR< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Ugo Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 07:11

I'm not sure whether this is the right place to put this. If it's not... admins, please move it. ;)

Yesternight I hosted a wonderful game of Tr3s Lunas where I was joined by Alan, Gary and Maria. At one point we decided to have a trip down the canyon and we agreed to meet up at the table with the mantis on it. Someone (maybe Gary, I don't think it was Alan) remarked that the mantis looked especially thin. I replied that a real mantis looks like that, to which Alan reacted by saying that the mantis he saw is not real. While the mantis itself (the one in the game) is very obviously not real and, being oversized and motionless, not realistic either, this sparked a philosophical discussion. I, taking into account the fact that we were all in a virtual reality game [by the way, "virtual reality" is an oxymoron, a paradox in itself, because 'virtual' is the opposite of 'real'], stated that here (i.e. in the game) nothing is real, like in Strawberry Fields... and I quoted the chorus of the well-known Lennon/Beatles song. :) Alan, instead, stated that the MVR/Tr3s Lunas world actually exists as a fully developed world within a game, so everything within it is just as real as everything that's outside of it, in the so-called "real" world. The discussion was short-lived (it got pretty much dissipated by the time we came to the Indian village), but it was nevertheless very interesting, at least for me.

So now I would like to ask to all the philosophers in here to give me a very basic, down-to-earth definition of what is real, of what constitutes reality. I'm not talking about any context in particular, I mean in general.

All replies are very welcome. :)


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 07:15

Quote (Ugo @ Feb. 27 2011, 07:11)
So now I would like to ask to all the philosophers in here to give me a very basic, down-to-earth definition of what is real, of what constitutes reality. I'm not talking about any context in particular, I mean in general.

All replies are very welcome. :)

After 2000 years there's no consensus, Ugo. An author/philosopher called David Lindsay believes that there's a mystical, transcendent reality of which we only get a glimpse by means of music!

By the way if MVR wants to start up a TL game instead of Maestro, I don't mind. I know you don't like Maestro...
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 07:47

Quote (Ugo @ Feb. 27 2011, 12:11)
Someone (maybe Gary, I don't think it was Alan) remarked that the mantis looked especially thin.

Yes, it was me. I was just messing about though, pretending to show a concern for the mantis as if he were an old chum. Which, in a sense, he is.
Quote
I replied that a real mantis looks like that, to which Alan reacted by saying that the mantis he saw is not real. While the mantis itself (the one in the game) is very obviously not real and, being oversized and motionless, not realistic either, this sparked a philosophical discussion.

By this time I was getting slightly alarmed, because in truth I was just being a bit silly!
Quote
Alan, instead, stated that the MVR/Tr3s Lunas world actually exists as a fully developed world within a game, so everything within it is just as real as everything that's outside of it, in the so-called "real" world.

Did I actually say that? I was still in a phase where I wasn't quite sure whether we were all now being silly, or being serious, and really I was 'pretending' to be surprised to learn that the world of Tr3sLunas was only an illusion.

Quote
So now I would like to ask to all the philosophers in here to give me a very basic, down-to-earth definition of what is real, of what constitutes reality.

Impossible to answer, I should think.  Dr Johnson, when asked how he would refute the idea that there was no reality 'out there', but only mental activity, replied 'I refute it thus, and kicked a stone. That, though witty and fun, was really an evasion of the question, but for most of us, I suppose we do the same.

The only thing we can be sure of, I think, is that every mental conception we have of the world is only that - a conception - a kind of mental map. This desk here in front of me is, I'm sure, nothing at all like my conception of it. The very notion of 'desk' is conceptual - and has no existence, 'out there'. We can talk about its constitution in terms of atoms, and so on, but that really just pushes the questions deeper in. We feel as if we've found some answers, but we haven't really. The nature of reality simply can't be known, I think. We just change our mental maps as we test the world and get different responses. The two are obviously linked (I mean the world out there, and the mental maps) but I can't imagine what the relationship is, except in Dr Johnson's stone-kicking pragmatic sense.

Maria is a real philosopher - she might have more to say.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 07:57

An afterthought:

We were talking the other day about who 'The Spirit' is, in Tr3s Lunas, weren't we? It's possible to see how the whole Plato v Aristotle thing could find itself working itself out within the world of Tr3Lunas. We might ask, is there really an 'ideal Tr3sLunas world' that exists somehow, of which the 'Spirit' is perhaps some manifestation? Should we really concern ourselves only with the rocks and plants and 'materiality' of the Tr3s Lunas world as we see it? Or are they merely the flickering shadows on the walls of the Virtual Platonic cave?

Welcome to the MusicVR Virtual Philosophy Club.
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Drealm Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 12:06

I would say that reality is not so complicated after all.

For example, we all share this planet as human beings; this is a reality we can all agree about. This have been verified and tested for centuries.

I don't think, for example, that 1/4 of humans on earth would say that we are actually living on Pluto instead of earth.

My point is that if you can verify the reality with millions of other persons saying that they are too in this same reality, we have a real reality here. And also, if this reality is long enough for us to be sure. I mean a dream (while sleeping) can last very long, but I always end up stopping this "dream reality" by waking up, again, here in my house with all the same things and persons around me that have been here for years. So this reality is very persistent...always coming back!

Basically, we only have 5 senses so there may be a lot of phenomena that we are not aware of just because we can't "grab" them. For example, millions of TV, portable phones and satellites are sending waves everyday, but we would never know if we did not have the technology to verify it. Like a bat who uses ultrasounds.

Maybe there's an afterlife so ghosts roaming around that we are not aware of; or a parallel universe. And for unknown reasons, maybe some humans can grab it.

But, if there's another reality, why the hell is it so hard to see, sense, go there, have simple proofs? That's why I tend to think that there's basically just one reality, the one we are experiencing right now. The fact that any other supposedly existing realities are nearly impossible to grab makes me wonder "hey, maybe we just have a big imagination"; thus the creation of virtual reality. May be a story in a book or a video game.

But in the end, one fact remain: I can't prove that no other reality exist, so it leaves me with infinite possibilities. One thing is sure: one day I will face the reality of death and I have hopes that something unexpected will happen, like death being a transition to another world.

The great everything can't be just about atoms materials?!
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maria Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 15:34

Quote (Alan D @ Feb. 27 2011, 07:57)
An afterthought:

We were talking the other day about who 'The Spirit' is, in Tr3s Lunas, weren't we? It's possible to see how the whole Plato v Aristotle thing could find itself working itself out within the world of Tr3Lunas. We might ask, is there really an 'ideal Tr3sLunas world' that exists somehow, of which the 'Spirit' is perhaps some manifestation? Should we really concern ourselves only with the rocks and plants and 'materiality' of the Tr3s Lunas world as we see it? Or are they merely the flickering shadows on the walls of the Virtual Platonic cave?

Welcome to the MusicVR Virtual Philosophy Club.

That's a way of seeing it.. then we would be in a cave within a cave... interesting..

If Plato had the chance to try Tr3s lunas, I don't think he would enjoy it... He might say that the game is an imperfect copy of the real Idea of Tr3s lunas; yet that Idea would not be a Spirit, but the Perfect concept of Tr3s Lunas: round, eternal and never reachable by the senses.
He would consider the game on a lower level of the reality, being the Idea on the top place. The only way to really know that perfect Idea would be by leaving the game, as the cave in his story, to go find and face the bright Sun out there, the true Idea of Tr3s Lunas.
It doesn't sound fun to me... unless that bright sun were somewhere behind the barriers...

On the other hand, I think Aristóteles would enjoy it. From his philosophy, I guess he would try and find the essence in every single bit in Tr3s Lunas world, he would experiment to get its essence, as he doesn't think there's an Idea outside there, of which the material beings participate. He thinks the essence is within the being along with its matter.

If I could choose, I'd call Aristóteles in for a game :)


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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 17:48

I wonder how Nietzsche would feel about Tr3s Lunas...
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 17:55

Quote (Syd B @ Feb. 27 2011, 17:48)
I wonder how Nietzsche would feel about Tr3s Lunas...

Well, Nietzsche offers a choice between "passive nihilism" (the world is meaningless so let's curl up in a corner and be miserable) and active nihilism (the world is meaningless so let's go out and enjoy ourselves) - so enjoying the game would fit right in with his position  :)
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ex member 892 Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 18:26

I thought Nietzsche's philosophy was about overcoming nihilism... or is that what you mean by "active nihilism"?
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Feb. 27 2011, 19:21

I'll try to track down the reference for you, Syd... It might have been in Beyond Good and Evil. But yes, active nihilism is as you say.
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14al Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2011, 03:45

Thinks less, just feel it. ;)
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Feb. 28 2011, 13:19

You said it, Ron. :) So reality is what you feel? Well, in this case, Tr3s Lunas is very real because we feel it in our minds and in our souls. :)

@ nightspore: I never happened to have any indeep studies of Nietzsche's philosophy. All I studied of him was his Übermensch concept, and how various historical figures, such as Hitler and Stalin, (mis)interpreted it. I never went into his thoughts on nihilism. They're interesting. ;)


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HR lover Offline




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Posted: Mar. 06 2011, 17:39

I have thought long and hard about this. The perception of reality is linked to our senses. A human has 21 senses but we can only see and hear the game. The fact that Tres Lunas looks nothing like our surroundings doesn't make it fake because humans adapt in different situations. Most animals see things in a different way we do but that's their perception of reality. A certain disbelief could be created when we arrive in a world that looks different to ours and adapting can take some time but the time that take to adapt depends on your age. The younger you are the easier you adapt. We don't get enough stimuli for Tres Lunas to be real the way our world is. Note that this is only the perception of reality. We don't know what real is. Strong feelings and interaction can make you feel alive but that doesn't mean it actually is real. I think it was Descartes who said that animals are robots. I however, go a step further and believe that humans are robots too (I also believe that humans are animals). Robots are purpose built. Humans are not purpose built (I know: contradictio in terminis). I don't believe that humans are here to procreate. We are here because life mutates and the strongest species survive. I don't look at nature as this collective thing but as a lot of individuals. Because humans are robots, there is no reality. Then we have the spiritual believers and people who have had spiritual experiences. Evolution hasn't stopped with us, it is still continuing. It is possible that some people who are mutants have this hormon in them that doesn't work properly yet or is triggered only in certain cases, feel this feeling they have never felt before and therefore think it's part of something higher. Or it could be that we are on the brink of creating a 22nd sense. I have felt feelings with Incatations that have felt otherworldly but perhaps Incatations has a certain musical sequence in it which helps me create a hormone.

Well I hope this answers your question.


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Mar. 06 2011, 22:18

Quote (HR lover @ Mar. 06 2011, 17:39)
perhaps Incatations has a certain musical sequence in it which helps me create a hormone.

A whore-moan? Shocking!  :O  :laugh:  :coyote howl:

Oops,wrong thread... :laugh:
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ex member 892 Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2011, 08:44

Quote (HR lover @ Mar. 06 2011, 17:39)
I have thought long and hard about this. The perception of reality is linked to our senses. A human has 21 senses but we can only see and hear the game. The fact that Tres Lunas looks nothing like our surroundings doesn't make it fake because humans adapt in different situations. Most animals see things in a different way we do but that's their perception of reality. A certain disbelief could be created when we arrive in a world that looks different to ours and adapting can take some time but the time that take to adapt depends on your age. The younger you are the easier you adapt. We don't get enough stimuli for Tres Lunas to be real the way our world is. Note that this is only the perception of reality. We don't know what real is. Strong feelings and interaction can make you feel alive but that doesn't mean it actually is real. I think it was Descartes who said that animals are robots. I however, go a step further and believe that humans are robots too (I also believe that humans are animals). Robots are purpose built. Humans are not purpose built (I know: contradictio in terminis). I don't believe that humans are here to procreate. We are here because life mutates and the strongest species survive. I don't look at nature as this collective thing but as a lot of individuals. Because humans are robots, there is no reality. Then we have the spiritual believers and people who have had spiritual experiences. Evolution hasn't stopped with us, it is still continuing. It is possible that some people who are mutants have this hormon in them that doesn't work properly yet or is triggered only in certain cases, feel this feeling they have never felt before and therefore think it's part of something higher. Or it could be that we are on the brink of creating a 22nd sense. I have felt feelings with Incatations that have felt otherworldly but perhaps Incatations has a certain musical sequence in it which helps me create a hormone.

Well I hope this answers your question.

Whoa.
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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2011, 14:12

Everything is real. I used to think in terms of the pot smoking scene in "National Lampoon's Animal House" with the students smoking pot with Donald Sutherland: "Uh, cough, maybe, cough, we're just like, uhhh, a molecule in some uhhhhh, larger person's like, fingernail? Uh, could you sell me some pot?" Nah. It's all real kids. Even virtual reality scenarios are real, created by real people with real tools created by other real people with the engineering tools to construct said real tools. I was once the jokester of tubenet, I guess I'm now the grim reality guy. Music is real. Ommadawn is real despite how much you can get lost in it. Created by a real entity on real physical manufactured equipment. Enjoy the fantasy of it while your young(if you are young). Getting into reality is more conducive to enjoying the fantasy of the unreal. Mike knew that in '75 doing Ommadawn(or later making VR games). Now that there is proof that life exists off the Earth, there's a dose of reality. The Egypt kids get pissed, then all ends well, that's reality. Then everyone else decides to jump on the political unrest bandwagon and wreak havok on oil/gas prices for me, that's real. "Reality" is what you must endure but can't control, as much as you would like to try. The only "reality" is how every other jerk-off on the planet controls your reality. I can't say I give a shit about Lybia any more than they would me. Or Iran, or any other war-like species that canes their women for wanting panty hose. I entered 2011 thinking, "oh gee, the BP oil spill is over". But each new year, day, month brings new disasters and angry mo-fo's with their realities and "agendas" all fully intact. And all these "agendas" are in Conflict. That's real. Perhaps if these mo-fo's can be chilled out, I could more fully immerse myself in fantasy! But it goes on and on and on. And all centered on the middle East. What is it with them? I'm 50 and since I was a kid journalists use titles like "Middle East Unrest?" or "Unrest in the Middle East?" There -IS- no rest in the Middle East. Never was, never will be. And our fragile economy just now recovering is going to suffer or collapse. Thats real. You want a dose of fantasy? I'd love this: Let's get a Klingon bird-of-prey. Let's get in orbit over the middle east. And North Korea while were at it. And hell, let's squirt the entire planet with torpedoes to detonate at 3000 feet with opium/THC/barbituate mist. Chill these mo-fo's out. Then we are in a better position to examine reality vs. unreality. My 2 cent's worth, as idiodic(or as realistic) as this post may seem. Folks need to chill, and I mean this. In 1969 when Apollo 11 landed on the moon, the population of this planet was 1/2 what it is now. When you double that number and place so many in juxtaposition each with his/her own agenda, you will have "unrest". That's real.

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14al Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2011, 15:29

Talked to my cat about this reality thing and you know what?
He doesn't give a damn about it.
He is to bussy getting enough sleep, live is short.
Don't understand those animals.
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Drealm Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2011, 17:27

Quote (Scatterplot @ Mar. 07 2011, 14:12)
Now that there is proof that life exists off the Earth, there's a dose of reality.

Heu...

One of my greatest dream would be proof without any doubt that there's actually life anywhere else in the universe. (I personally think that it's very probable, but I don't have proof yet)

You know, there is so much speculations, secret truth, movies about real events, area 51, all these things that entertain our dreams about other life but, in the end, I've never seen anything that actually convinced me 100% about ET life.

The way you say it makes me want you to say your sources for being so sure about that.

Maybe your sources will change my life and give me the proofs I need about extraterrestrial life.
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2011, 17:38

@ HR lover & Scatterplot, you are using other words to raise the same point I raised in my original post. Of course the world within the Tr3s Lunas game is real - it's a perfectly constructed and perfectly structured world which is very much real in its own context, i.e. in the context of the game. Outside of the game, of course, it stops being real and it becomes a fantasy world, just like Tolkien's Middle Earth or Michael Ende's Fantàsia (in The Never Ending Story - the book, not the shitty Eighties film! :D). Those are worlds that are thoroughly real in their own contexts - Middle Earth even has its own languages, which are completely different from any language we know in "our" world. But they stop being real as soon as we move out of the books in which they are described - as soon as we do that, those worlds stop being real because they are in the realm of fantasy, which by definition is the opposite of reality. :) So, in your very detailed and (particularily Jim's) very well supported and substantiated replies, you didn't really answer my question... you just re-stated my original point. My question was to give a definition of what is real - of what is reality made of. And none of you, so far, actually answered it. @ Leon/HR lover, the perception of reality has nothing at all to do with what reality is. If you talk about perception, you go back to the original starting point and you start walking round and round without ever getting anywhere. :) @ Jim, I didn't ask to define the things that are real. What I asked was a definition of reality in general. :) To me it's not true at all that reality is what you can't control - I, as a teacher, can control the way a child learns, and that to me is very much a reality.

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bee Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2011, 18:24

I think if something 'feels' real to you, then that is all that matters.  We believe what we want to believe, we make our own reality.

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