Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

 

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

Topic: Two microphones in the early Seventies..., Why< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Ugo Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 5495
Joined: April 2000
Posted: Dec. 09 2008, 18:49

[@ admins: if you feel this is out of place here, please move it.]

On some Genesis concert footage from 1973, which I have on the Selling England by the Pound DVD, Peter Gabriel is seen using two identical microphones taped together with adhesive tape, and Phil Collins is too. Does anyone know for what reason? It can't be that one of the mics goes through some effects or filters and the other does not [the singer from an Italian contemporary band, Subsonica, does that], because both Pete and Phil sing into both microphones at all times, and the sound that's heard is always the same. So why there are two? Is it because of stereo? And if so, why are just the vocal mics the ones being coupled?

By the way, it's not only Genesis who used two mics that way. I also saw that in some concert footage of Free singing "All Right Now", in some Who footage, in an early Pink Floyd performance... it's something that looks typical of the era (early 1970s). If anyone here could give me some sort of explanation, I'd be very grateful.


--------------
Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
Back to top
Profile PM 
larstangmark Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1759
Joined: Mar. 2005
Posted: Dec. 10 2008, 06:47

What if they used a separate desk for monitoring and had one of the mics connected to that one? Sounds crazy, but hey we're talking the 70s now.
I have no idea really...


--------------
"There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste"
Mark E Smith
Back to top
Profile PM WEB 
Ugo Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 5495
Joined: April 2000
Posted: Dec. 10 2008, 17:39

Well, using a mic as a monitoring device sounds really weird to me. I agree with you that the 1970s music world is very far from ours, both technically and musically, but to me there seems to be no plausible reason for which they would 'waste' a mic (so to speak) just for monitoring. And however, this theory clashes with the fact that the doubled microphones are just the vocal ones, i.e. the ones that Peter and Phil (and Tony) sing in. No other microphone is doubled, and there are lots of them (on the amps and the drums). If one of the mics in the couples was indeed connected to a separate desk, does this mean that the second desk only handled the vocals? That'd be weird. :D

--------------
Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
Back to top
Profile PM 
Scatterplot Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1980
Joined: Dec. 2007
Posted: Dec. 11 2008, 00:47

Maybe they needed a hotter signal. Maybe each mic had a different frequency response curve but when combined gave a nice flat response. Kind of like 2 different pickups on a guitar.

--------------
We raise our voices in the night
Crying to heaven
And will our voices be heard
Or will they break Like the wind
Back to top
Profile PM 
larstangmark Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1759
Joined: Mar. 2005
Posted: Dec. 11 2008, 05:17

Scatterplot's theory sounds better, but having a second "monitor mike" only for the vocals does makes a bit more sense than you give credit for. The other instruments are amplified and are heard on stage for natural reasons (the drums weren't even miked a lot of the time!;).

--------------
"There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste"
Mark E Smith
Back to top
Profile PM WEB 
The Caveman Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 2178
Joined: Jan. 2008
Posted: Dec. 11 2008, 08:19

Hi.It's more likely that one mic was for the sound desk and out to the PA and the second was for the recording and would have been routed to the recording equipment.

--------------
THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Ugo Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 5495
Joined: April 2000
Posted: Dec. 11 2008, 16:38

@ Caveman: thanks very much for your attempt, your theory seems the most likely, to me. But it still doesn't explain why the vocal mics are the only doubled ones. Weren't the amps (connected to the guitars and the keyboards) and the drums being recorded as well? According to your explanation they should've been doubled as well - and yet they aren't... :)

--------------
Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
Back to top
Profile PM 
larstangmark Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1759
Joined: Mar. 2005
Posted: Dec. 11 2008, 17:00

Actually, the more mikes you have the better you sound. This jaded singer knows about that;



--------------
"There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste"
Mark E Smith
Back to top
Profile PM WEB 
Ugo Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 5495
Joined: April 2000
Posted: Dec. 11 2008, 18:19

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe. :laugh: :laugh: Good one. :D

--------------
Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
Back to top
Profile PM 
Scatterplot Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 1980
Joined: Dec. 2007
Posted: Dec. 12 2008, 01:06

Looking around at a couple of articles I found some things. I think the 2 mikes, even placed together in front of one voice were routed L/R so as to make a minimal stereo effect on each voice as well as improve S/N. This piece of an article was interesting:

COINCIDENT As the name suggests, a coincident pair is two microphones positioned so that their capsules are as close to each other as possible. This closeness, or coincidence, ensures that the left and right signals have no phase differences and thus maintain their frequency response when summed to mono.
In coincident pairs, the stereo spread is created by amplitude alone. Directional microphones are most sensitive to sound coming from directly in front of the capsules (on axis) and are less sensitive to off-axis sound. In other words, the mic "hears" lots of sound coming from the front and much less from the sides. Therefore, sound sources positioned in the center of the angle between the two mics will appear in the center of the stereo field, whereas sources off to one side or the other will appear more on-axis to one microphone and thus will be reproduced louder on that side.

    Seems to me these guys (Genesis) always went the extra mile with recording technology. It would make sense the 2 mikes were to create a "spatial" effect, or to improve sound or both. If the singer moved from side to side, this would "sort of" be in stereo depending on his position. I remember primitive stereo tape recorders from the '70's that had a double mike in one plastic piece. But the mikes were angled from each other, say 30-45 degrees so as to make a bs stereo recording on two tape tracks. Yall have fun,
Jim
Jim


--------------
We raise our voices in the night
Crying to heaven
And will our voices be heard
Or will they break Like the wind
Back to top
Profile PM 
Ugo Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 5495
Joined: April 2000
Posted: Dec. 12 2008, 19:19

Very nice, Jim. Thanks a lot. ;)

--------------
Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
Back to top
Profile PM 
Korgscrew Offline




Group: Super Admins
Posts: 3511
Joined: Dec. 1999
Posted: Jan. 29 2009, 02:19

In the days before transformer isolated splitters (and after that, the days before it was common practice to have them available), having a second mic was the best way of getting a second feed. It does seem like the most common reason to do it was for recording purposes (having not seen that Genesis DVD, I don't know what they would have done about the other instruments...it's possible they were recorded by other means, or that - particularly believable in the case of guitars - weren't going through the PA).
It would equally have given a good way of feeding the vocals to a separate amplifier so that the singers could hear themselves better, in days when monitoring was still in its infancy (and really, using a mic for that isn't wasting it - they 'waste' a whole mixer and engineer for monitoring these days! ). I don't know what kind of set up Genesis would have had at that stage, but my guess is that they probably would have had more sophisticated monitoring arrangements than that in 1973, but that really is only a guess.

The two mic technique for recording still gets done now, usually for a different reason. Hayley Westenra sang into two mics at the Music of the Spheres premiere - one was a studio condenser (a C414 if my memory serves me correctly) for the recording and a less sensitive and feedback prone Sennheiser dynamic mic for the PA. I have a feeling that at least some of the instances of two mics taped together in 60s/70s concerts have been condenser/dynamic combinations, in fact.

There are some other reasons two mics might be used on one singer, though I don't think any apply here.
Having a pair angled inwards towards the singer is sometimes done in a classical setting, to help give even coverage when the singer moves his/her head; it's a common one with politicians as well (though as a side note, the two SM57s on the US president's podium are apparently used to provide separate feeds, as well as being there in case one fails - that's why they're right next to each other, pointing forwards; the basic setup hasn't changed since 1968). That's always done with them more distant, though.

The same goes for stereo recording - they need to be a certain distance away for it to give anything like an accurate image. It's also important that the spacing and angle (and they do need to be angled to make a useful coincident pair) between them remains constant, which means putting them in a stereo mount of some description - gaffer tape really isn't good enough (though it might work if the mics aren't going to be touched at all). Miking a singer in stereo at a rock concert would cause all sorts of problems later on in the mix, though and in terms of a PA mix, it would be fairly disastrous - the important things like vocals need to be kept at the centre of a live sound mix so that people get a good balance even if they're right over by one side of the stage...you can get away with using a bit of panning as a special effect, but going much further can be asking for trouble.

Yet another technique involves having one mic to sing into and another picking up ambient sound - the polarity of one is then reversed so that, in theory, the ambient noise gets cancelled out and all that's left is a nice clean vocal. The Grateful Dead used this technique in the 70s, but I've read that they didn't manage to avoid the thin vocal sound that resulted from the vocals getting cancelled as they were picked up slightly by the second mic. Their mics were also on a rigid double mount rather than taped together.
All three of those techniques need the mics to be matched, so condensers are normally used (you can do stereo with ribbon mics, but that's a whole different story...).

So...clumsy as it may seem, the separate feeds explanation is actually the most likely.
Back to top
Profile PM 
Ugo Offline




Group: Members
Posts: 5495
Joined: April 2000
Posted: Jan. 29 2009, 18:55

Thanks a lot, Richard. You're very, very kind.

--------------
Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
Back to top
Profile PM 
12 replies since Dec. 09 2008, 18:49 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track this topic :: Email this topic :: Print this topic ]

 






Forums | Links | Instruments | Discography | Tours | Articles | FAQ | Artwork | Wallpapers
Biography | Gallery | Videos | MIDI / Ringtones | Tabs | Lyrics | Books | Sitemap | Contact

Mike Oldfield Tubular.net
Mike Oldfield Tubular.net