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Topic: Tracklisting Released at mikeoldfield.de< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 12 2005, 17:40

Quote (TOBY @ Aug. 12 2005, 21:19)
There the analogy works but if you want to look fundamentally enough at anything you'll find parallels, I'm not so sure you can start justifying bad art or in this case music (if indeed it is bad, it may not be) this way.

But you've twisted what I said here. I was saying that just because Mike may use pieces of someone else's work to make his own, that doesn't, per se, mean that the result is likely to be bad - and I gave Picasso as my example. My point is that the basic materials that you start from are not the things that decide whether the art is good or bad. It's what you do with them that counts. If Mike has used a source that seems dodgy to us, it tells us nothing until we've heard what he did with it. (And of course it's perfectly possible to make bad art with bits of a bicycle!! )

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ps How on earth did Bob Dylan turn his back on traditional musicianship? He still played the guitar and mouth organ not to mention sang the most important lyrics in rock history.

In 1966 he played the second half of his shows with an electric band, very, very loud. The devotees of the folk tradition were appalled. They had gone to see him play alone with an acoustic guitar because that's how folk music was 'supposed' to be played. They walked out. They booed. One of them famously shouted 'Judas!'. They felt betrayed, because he was abandoning the accepted way of performing. But actually, he knew exactly what he was doing, and was inventing something completely new.

And that doesn't mean that I think Mike is teetering on the same brink of making musical history. I don't know whether he is or not, and suspect that he isn't. But my point is that if he were in fact on the brink of something great here, we would expect all these adverse reactions to occur, with lots of people wishing that he'd stick with the kind of music-making they were familiar with. The history of Dylan criticism is littered with the baffled comments of critics who wish he would sing like he used to - at every stage of his career!!!
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Aug. 12 2005, 18:09

I agree completely that its what you do with something, a sample in this case, that counts more than the source of the material. However if this track turns out to be the best on the album then that to me would be a bit worrying. I suppose its all about context and and try as he might Mike will never be out of the context, in my mind, of his greatest works, which are to me the benchmarks for all his artistic moves, and to most people here by the looks of things.

What I like about the idea of sampling, as far as DJ's and dance musicians are concerned, is the idea that they spend hours trawling through tons of records and discover some long lost gem of music and use it to build something of their own. This is where sampling works at its best. To most people involved in dance music the art of sampling comes from the originality of the find, the atmosphere it creates, and also the age of it. Its interesting to note that a lot of samples used in dance music are actually quite old.

So maybe for Mike it is experimental to nick a bit of software demo and use it as his own. But in the context of the amount of experimenting and groundbreaking originality he's accomplished in his career its got to be pretty much at the bottom of the barrel, I think thats my point.
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Moonlight-Shame Offline




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Posted: Aug. 12 2005, 18:13

I must be stupid... Where can I download the soundsamples from the new album?
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captain cavern Offline




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Posted: Aug. 12 2005, 18:23

here: http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/bison4um/
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Glorfindel Offline




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Posted: Aug. 12 2005, 18:31

Strange how I find myself more excited for the release of the Exposed DVD than the new album  :/
Maybe I have a been a fan for far too long and wallow too much in classic years.  :/
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Moonlight-Shame Offline




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Posted: Aug. 12 2005, 21:47

thanks for the link.

I think the music wasn't really that bad especially the second part of the track that lasted for over 6 minutes. But the drum-loops and style sadly made it sound very dated. Although I loved TSODE when it came out, it's style was close to being dated even when it came out in... what is it? 11 years ago?

I haven't read all the posts in this topic so you guys probably have spoken about this already but isn't it weird that Oldfield rather want's to sound like the 90´s than the 70´s... Who would want that???

I feel Mike needs some new musical inspiration. Someone should raid his home and throw away all his Enigma-CD´s and replace them with something far more creative and fresh. At least can't someone tell him that dolphins, 90´s-drumloops whispering voices and chants are a thing of the past. Time to move on. Maybe at least change that pad-sound that he's been using since TSODE.

For every new album he releases a new complex album seems more and more distant. Not that he couldn't create complex music, I think he's just decided to take the easy route. I don't think he's interested and burning for what he does anylonger. He just doesn't bother.

Over and out.
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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 01:40

Quote (Alan D @ Aug. 12 2005, 13:23)
And why, please tell me, is the use of a computer an indication of laziness? Wind the clock back and imagine the first reactionary responses when people started fitting pickups to guitars and changing the sound electronically. The whole battery of audio development that's been going on for decades could be seen as a slide down towards ever-increasing laziness, if that's the way you want to see it.

30 years ago I used a typewriter to write articles; now I use a computer. Does this make me lazy?

I'm confused! What I do know, that I will love this album no matter what. My personal reservations have not come from the music, I would not judge the album until I heard the whole thing, but by the interview that Mike has given. But I have the sort of emotional attachment to things that could inspire me to keep wearing my favourite pair of faded blue denim jeans even if they turned pink overnight and were coverd in sprinkles!

I think one glitch in Alans point is that a computer is a natural technological progression from a typewriter. But some people think machinery IS a natural progression from a real guitar and some don't. I DON'T. I LOVE dance/trance music, and I have no objection to computerised sounds, SODE is in my top 10!. But IMHO it is a different art form to playing an instrument, it takes different skills. The fact that some people can do one of these things well but not the other proves it. If Mozart was alive today and you took away his harpsichord and gave him a piano, he could still play, but put him in front of a synthesizer and he will go HUH! I do not see it as a NATURAL progression, I see it as a distraction or a career change for a 'real' instrument playing musician. In effect, if this is a NATURAL PROGRESSION then by definition ALL musical instruments will one day become obsolete! Why not, they already have in the home of the greatest musical instrument player in modern society as far as I am concerned. Did I read this correctly? Did Mike say that he has only ONE instrument, a piano, left in his home!!! I want to cry. It is not the sounds that I object to, or the end result. It is the decision by the one who does it best, that what he does has become obsolete. And I fear, all in the name of Success and Fame, a desire to be modern. Mike, leave that to the new upcoming young musicians of today, a new breed, talented performers with exciting visions, it is a beautiful art form. And your 'source of secrets' excerpt on The Essential cd is one of my favourite tracks. But I want my eclectic hippy back, he WAS young and hip and can still be. In the immortal words of Ricky Bling, "folky, rocky, bonkers throw in a couple of geese & dog barking music". Lots of other people can do what Mike is doing now, did he get sick of being unique. His promo shots were of motorbikes!! nothing musical, nothing ethereal, nothing unique, just a boy playing with his toys. What is his album cover going to look like, a horses head! As I was saying earlier, I'm CONFUSED! Pretend I didn't say anything, sorry.


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 04:13

Quote (TOBY @ Aug. 12 2005, 23:09)
Mike will never be out of the context, in my mind, of his greatest works, which are to me the benchmarks for all his artistic moves

But I think it's almost certain that you and I would disagree quite sharply about what his greatest works are. So the benchmarks you speak of are not absolute things. Remember, I think MVR is probably the most exciting and life-enhancing new art form I've encountered in a long time. So what you will tend to see in the context of the fag-end of a musical career, I see as an accompaniment to something wider and bigger and (I hope) still growing.

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So maybe for Mike it is experimental to nick a bit of software demo and use it as his own. But in the context of the amount of experimenting and groundbreaking originality he's accomplished in his career its got to be pretty much at the bottom of the barrel, I think thats my point.

But I say again that you're making the judgement before you've given the art a chance. If you'd heard that Picasso had been making sculptures from bicycle parts before you'd seen it, you would have said exactly the same thing.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 04:25

Quote (TubularBelle @ Aug. 13 2005, 06:40)
I think one glitch in Alans point is that a computer is a natural technological progression from a typewriter. But some people think machinery IS a natural progression from a real guitar and some don't.

What is a real guitar? What is a real instrument? Between you and the vibrating strings of Mike's guitar is a great mass of electronic 'machinery', but it doesn't bother you. In order for the music to reach your ears, machines have transformed the mechanical vibrations into electrical ones, chopped them up into digital bits, transformed them in very substantial ways under the control of a sound engineer, stamped the result onto a CD, and then all your own audio machinery has reversed the process to give you, eventually, what you're happy to accept as the sound of Mike playing.

If you go down the 'no machinery' road you end up with the only authentic experience being to sit in the same room while Mike plays acoustic guitar. Which would of course be very nice, but that's not my point!
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 04:38

Quote (TubularBelle @ Aug. 13 2005, 06:40)
If Mozart was alive today and you took away his harpsichord and gave him a piano, he could still play, but put him in front of a synthesizer and he will go HUH! I do not see it as a NATURAL progression, I see it as a distraction or a career change for a 'real' instrument playing musician.

I actually doubt it.

He'd of course not be immediately familiar with the synthesiser, but neither would he be immediately familiar with the piano and the use of its pedals. Mozart also played the organ, so I imagine he'd already have been familiar with the concepts of presets and sound layering, and that of playing sustained sounds on a keyboard (which he wouldn't have been, had he only played the harpsichord).
Synthesisers aren't electronic mutants that have sprung up from nowhere - they've been designed as instruments, for playing music. Anyone familiar with the concepts of playing music will also be familiar with the majority of the parameters of the average synthesiser (there are always obscure ones which nobody knows the functions of). That's not to say that the functions of everything will be immediately obvious, but rather that they're designed to give control over musical parameters - pitch (including vibrato, and the way pitch alters over time), volume (and the way that also alters over time) and timbre (and yes, you guessed it, the way that alters over time). That's the same as all instruments, though some don't offer the ability to control all of those things. Nothing that would seem odd to Mozart (things like the built-in reverb which some have might seem unusual to him, as the concept of artificial reverb would be entirely new to him, but he'd certainly understand the effects of reverb on sound), though of course, the electronic nature of the instrument would seem very strange to him. I'm not suggesting that he, or any other musician raised on acoustic instruments, would understand it immediately - there are lots of things on synthesisers which would be quite alien to those not used to them, but there are things on any instrument which are alien to those not used to them (consider a violinist's reaction on being sat at a pipe organ...also consider how players of each of those instrument would find the others' instrument to be disappointingly lacking in areas they might consider quite important to their enjoyment of playing).

In saying he has only one real instrument left, Mike is contradicting himself. He's played a lot of guitar on the album. Remember, when he says things like this, that he's a man who claimed to have bought his first studio computer in 2002 - he'd been using an Atari since the 80s, then a Mac...the device he was referring to as his first computer wasn't even a computer as such, but rather a hard disk recorder. Remember also, when he wildly sings the praises of Fl and how he can do everything with it, that he's probably being paid by them to say so (he's been featured quite heavily in their recent advertising, and quite likely has some kind of endorsement deal with them). He often goes back on such statements later - he once said that with his previous software, Logic audio, he had no trouble using it, because he'd been using it since it was first released, so he knew what it all does. On his switch to FL, he then said that he found Logic too complicated.

Let's not ignore what he's said about a complex Tubular Bells type album being too bound to the 70s...er...was Tubular Bells itself not too bound to the 70s, then? If it was, it didn't stop him re-recording and releasing it a couple years ago. If it's the case that music with that kind of structure is too bound with the 70s, why is it that Amarok sounds far more timeless than the at the time 'contemporary' (can't say it really was, but it was an attempt at being that) Earth Moving?

It's amazing they can still interview Mike sitting down, without his answers getting muffled by the cushion...
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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 04:41

@ Alan. Nor was it my point, I have said more often than not I have nothing against technical wizardry. I think what I am trying to say is that I feel Mikes use of it has indeed made him lazy in some respects. I have no doubt that he works physically and mentally just as hard as he ever did but perhaps not emotionally or purely. Indeed he is keeping up with the times as we all should and would want him to do. I think I finally realise that the truth is that technology has taken over, bringing with it a whole world of new sounds and experiences but also taking away the sounds and experiences of the past that we all know and love. All I am actually trying to say (I think) is that technology has changed Mikes way of thinking with regards to music, quite obviously, and I prefered his old way of thinking.

@ Korgscrew, are you saying that Mike himself is a little confused as to where his loyalties lie? Has this album been made all on machinery or not? Does he still own guitars? Amarok certainly is timeless and why is that? because it is so unusual and so complex that it doesn't easilly fit into any genre or time frame. Even you seem disillusioned with Mikes direction or attitude at this time. I dare you to make your last comment your signature! hehe.


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I hate getting up early. I didn't even realise there were two 6 o'clocks in one day!
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 06:00

Quote (TubularBelle @ Aug. 13 2005, 09:41)
I think what I am trying to say is that I feel Mikes use of it has indeed made him lazy in some respects.

Most people ignore MVR as though it was some kind of aberration, but you don't invent a new art form and develop it over a period of years by being lazy. You're only looking at one part of what he's done and rejecting (or ignoring) the whole MVR dimension, which only became possible through computers. That's clearly helped him to develop an extensive vision about what he thinks can be achieved through computers. There's nothing superficial about MVR. He put his heart and soul into it.

His use of computers doesn't mean he's lazy. It just means he's not doing what you want him to do in the way you want him to do it - which of course is what you said here:
Quote
All I am actually trying to say (I think) is that technology has changed Mikes way of thinking with regards to music, quite obviously, and I prefered his old way of thinking.

Obviously you prefer what you prefer and there's an end to it; but to conclude on that basis that Mike is being lazy is quite unjustifiable.

And at the risk of becoming a bell sounding one note myself: was Picasso lazy when he picked up a bike handlebar and saddle and put them together to make a bull? Or was he being a genius and using a lifetime of experience to see something that no one else had ever seen before?
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 08:06

Well Picasso was being a genius in seeing what no one had seen before and circa 1973 and for a few years thereafter Mike was doing the same in the world of music. But what is he doing now that no has ever done before? His music to a fair degree could be written by anybody. Like I said before if sampling a riff from a software demo is defined as music experimentation then as far as Mike is concerned its bottom of the barrel stuff.

On the separate subject of MVR there was a lot of debate about it on these boards at the time of its release and the general conclusion was Mike didn't really invent any new art form with MVR There were similar virtual reality experiments involving music done by others in the years preceding it, not that that should necessarily detract from what he achieved with MVR.  Personally I did really enjoy MVR, there was a genuine excitement in playing it for the first time and discovering all the new music and worlds he created. I'm not sure it had any artistic depth to it and certainly no emotional depth but perhaps that would be missing the point of it. It was just great, reletively mindless fun. I can't say I've played it for a few year and can't say I'll play it again but I always thought it was a worthy little side project. However I agree with majority of fans who pointed out that they came to Mike because of his music not his skill in being a games developer.
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Blue Dolphin Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 08:45

Korgscrew, you're finally here! I was already wondering when you gave your 2 cents. ;)

But ... what if Mozart has this? What if Picasso did that? Why the hell are we talking about people who are already dead...? That's history. We don't know what they would have done if they had modern equipment. There are philosophy websites for these sort of discussions.

What I am trying to say people: aren't we going (slighty) off-topic here?


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Ian Too Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 09:57

Hello everyone, I've been reading your comments here with interest and damn it, you've got me excited about the new album. I haven't felt that in some time.

To those of you who wish Mike wouldn't use computers and take a more traditional approach, I think Mike is always going to disappoint you.

I have been a fan since 1980 and the impression I get from having read all those interviews over the years is that Mike isn't a traditionalist in that sense at all. As far as I can tell, Mike doesn't care how the sound is created, as long as it achieves what he intended. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard the disappointment of people on hearing that he recorded some peices of Tubular Bells at half speed, because he couldn't play them full tilt - and he did this at the earliest oppertunity...

It seems, having listened to Angelique and Our Father, that Mike's guitars are quite safe from the attic just yet. In fact I'd say his playing is tonally and emotinally glorious. I've just listened to Angelque six times in a row, so I guess you can say I'm hooked!  :D

I'm speculating here, but I imagine that the Light half of this album is the third part of Mike's WEA deal, which for some reason they decided not to publish. Because Mike owns his material, he would be quite at liberty to offer it to someone else once his contract expired, or if WEA released him from it.

I don't see this as reason think less of the album, but I would expect something similar to Tres Lunas; uninspiring over all, but I do listen to Thout Art in Heaven and Sirius, so it's not all bad.

I have higher hopes for Shade, because it might mean more interesting and emotionally varied music, especially if he was in the frame of mind to consider a longer peice.

On the subject of longer peices, there are advatages and disadvantages in both. Shorter peices are more accessible, but longer ones more involving and consistent emotionally - in that although they are emotinally varied, they don't change mood in an abrupt way. We've had short peices for quite some time now and I think it high time Mike did something at which he is the exemplar.

As for being behind the times, I can't say I give fig for the culture around music at all, but there is no doubt that finding a new sympathetic audience can inspire Mike - new audiences gave us both TSODE and Tub3, Mike's strongest recent albums. (TSODE, recent?)

I live in hope that Mike has some theme bouncing around in his head strong enough for him to develop in the way he did with Ommadawn. I've always thought that Mike shouldn't follow the crowd, but be a maker of manners and if that makes his music a little less accessible, then what of it?

(-: Ian :-)


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What Remains to be Discovered by John Maddox
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drystone Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 10:01

There seem to be a lot of negative comments already about the new album although we haven't heard it yet and I'm a bit confused by people's attitudes towards Mike's new work.

I gotta admit Mike's innovative style that made him such an icon in the first place seem to have taken a few steps back. His albums aren't necessarily as creative or original as some of his best albums, but still, I feel I always enjoy whatever this man puts out. Even though the overall creativity and the power of his music isn't as eminent as it perhaps used to be, the sounds and the moods Mike creates are always incredibly inspiring and beautiful. I don't think he'd be making music if he felt himself lazy, tired or unpassionate about what he's doing.

Mike's had an incredible career and with his music he has influenced my life in many ways. I bet lot of people can say the same. I personally can't really say a bad word about him or his music, even if some of his work wasn't 110% satisfactory. I still enjoy all of his records, some more than others, and I'm really looking forward to Light and Shade, as I'll again be able to put on my headphones and be transfered to another world.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 11:38

Quote (TOBY @ Aug. 13 2005, 13:06)
the general conclusion was Mike didn't really invent any new art form with MVR There were similar virtual reality experiments involving music done by others in the years preceding it,

The general conclusion is simply wrong. I don't believe there is another other piece of software I can install on my PC that will give me the uniquely imaginative artistic and musical character of the MVR experience - which has  charmed, thrilled and haunted me (and others) for several years now. (By the way, if there really were such alternative pieces of software, of comparable calibre, I'd be delighted! )

Quote
I'm not sure it had any artistic depth to it and certainly no emotional depth but perhaps that would be missing the point of it. It was just great, relatively mindless fun.

By contrast, I go on and on finding layers and layers of emotional and artistic depth to it; and the idea that it's merely 'mindless' fun is completely incomprehensible to me.

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However I agree with majority of fans who pointed out that they came to Mike because of his music not his skill in being a games developer.

There were probably fans of Picasso who were disappointed in his bull because they weren't interested in his skills as an arranger of bicycle parts. But that, surely, was their problem - not Picasso's?
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 11:47

Quote (Blue Dolphin @ Aug. 13 2005, 13:45)
What I am trying to say people: aren't we going (slighty) off-topic here?

No, not even slightly. We are very much slap-bang in the heart of the topic. It just isn't a simple matter.
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TOBY Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 11:55

This is going way off topic now. I can't really be bothered going through the same arguments that were had this time 3 years ago and I certainly can't be bothered talking about Picasso any longer chap.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Aug. 13 2005, 12:04

Quote (TOBY @ Aug. 13 2005, 16:55)
This is going way off topic now. I can't really be bothered going through the same arguments that were had this time 3 years ago and I certainly can't be bothered talking about Picasso any longer chap.

We reached this point because the issue was about whether in making the new album in this way, Mike was being lazy or somehow scraping the bottom of the barrel. My argument is simply that we have no evidence at all that his use of computers is due to any kind of laziness or creative bankcrupcy - my use of the Picasso and MVR examples being to illustrate that. But I entirely agree that enough has now been said.

And despite all these words, we still know very little about the actual music......
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