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TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: June 21 2003, 17:08 Yup there you have it. It would be interesting to know if Mike has ever approached the makers of Myst to see if they would be interested in getting involved with him or if they even know about MVR. I suppose it comes back round to Jerome C's valid point about Mike being unable or unwilling to let other people get involved at a conceptual level. It all hammers home the fact even more that people outside the fanbase arn't going to appreciate Mike's DIY efforts if there's already people doing a very similar thing with much better graphics. The fact that Mike's financing MVR himself and so obviously can't afford a huge team of programers may be appreciated by you and I but its not going to be appreciated by the sorts and numbers of people Mike needs to attract to turn MVR into a success story. Back to top

Mark 1 Group: Members Posts: 65 Joined: June 2001 Posted: June 21 2003, 19:44 The Myst games are all games based on a static pre-rendered gameworld. While very beautiful - it can't give the player the sense of freedom Music VR gives. I think the technical aspect of Music VR shouldn't be underestimated as I think the visuals may have been given too much an emphasis. Visually, Music VR is an interesting mix of dated material (the world itself) with the relatively contemporary (models and animation). But on the aspect of interactivity, it's rather unique. First of all - it's control system is very simple but allows for a lot of different actions. In fact, if you avoid shooting you could play it with just one hand on your mouse. This helps very much in giving a very dreamy and intuitive feel to its navigation. Second - you don't really know what will happen if you do something. There's nearly no repetitiveness to the game which I assume has taken quite a lot of work as the code can't be reused that easily for new sequences. Third - if something happens, it can be a small shower of particles, music can play or the entire world can change instantly. Basically - I agree with everyone who says the Music VR engine doesn't deliver state of the art graphics. But acknowledging that this undertaking would perhaps not fit the means and scope of the project, I think Music VR is quite a superb bit of coding and design. Back to top

oblique Group: Members Posts: 411 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: June 22 2003, 05:09 The first Myst game was indeed static but right now with Exile and RealMyst you have the same sence of freedom as you can move around freely in a pre-rendered environment. Besides, having things pre-rendered doesn't change a thing for the game itself: you don't know what to expect either except for the fact that it looks a lot better. Repetetiveness in a game can be a puzzle in itself. Ever tried getting through a maze in some sort of sub-on-wheels? Took me three days of fun to find out. This too can be played with only one hand on your mouse. In fact I remember having read somewhere that it was Mike's intention to create a game that didn't include shooting at things? His games should be peaceful and not about agression? In the Myst series you don't get to shoot as well. The only thing harmful I've done there is caching a frog, because I had to memorise the sound it made. And as for "giving a very dreamy and intuitive feel to its navigation" read the other posts about getting seasick and all. I agree Mike has a great imagination. He's a wonderful musician but I feel disapointed every time I play his games, because it could easily have been so much better. -------------- "While we are alive we should sit among colored lights and taste good wines, and discuss our adventures in far places; when we are dead, the opportunity is past." - Jack Vance Back to top

Blue Dolphin Group: Members Posts: 1232 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: June 22 2003, 05:19 Well, catching the frog in Riven wasn't really harmful, because afterwards you could let if go back to freedom. (although, it was a long way down to the water)   But yes, the Myst games are really peacefull and non-violent. Atlantis is a bit the same, although the sequences and some parts can be agressive (like stabbing a soldier in the first part). But still, I also like the Atlantis series, although the first one is the best one. The music is also really good. I'm falling away from the subject. -------------- -The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it- Mike Oldfield - 1980 Back to top

oblique Group: Members Posts: 411 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: June 22 2003, 05:44 ( I especially like the opening sequence where you arrive with your flying ship at the palace and they won't let you in.....) Ah, eh yes, you're falling away from the subject. -------------- "While we are alive we should sit among colored lights and taste good wines, and discuss our adventures in far places; when we are dead, the opportunity is past." - Jack Vance Back to top

Fox Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: June 24 2003, 00:06 A fan of the Myst trilogy myself, I agree, but let's stay on topic  haha   A fan of MVR, I don't like this new demo.  The banking effect needs to go.  Nothing was wrong with MVR's engine...why change that? And the graphics run jerky on my system.  Too much detail.  Those two things make it unplayable for me.  I don't like it. Back to top

Thomas Höögh Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: Mar. 2001 Posted: June 25 2003, 14:25 Ok, I can't fly this thing. I'm getting sick and frustrated. There is now sound either, what am I doing wrong? Have flewn into the castle and into the tube sky with the windmills. But not even a itsy bitsy little tune has appeard. The soundsystem works great in all other programs though. But please, do so it is possible to chose wich kind of flight style you want to use. I cant use this one. -------------- Crazy, terrible, wonderful, perfect!!!! I just love Tubular Bells ||| Back to top

The Thin Man Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: May 2002 Posted: June 27 2003, 14:43 I've been playing the demo for a while now but so far haven't found the chuckle. The Thin Man Back to top

TinkerBell Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: June 2002 Posted: June 27 2003, 20:19 Well, we think we have done it now - but what was the point?    Agreed, it is a demo - and so the TubeWorld team are probably looking for feedback from the loyal punters.  So, if anyone out there is listening, here is our 2p worth: Basiclly the basic idea/concept behind MusicVR/TubeWorld is truly GREAT!  The overall execution is getting better - more powerful graphics cards really help here.  I quite like the graphics as it is - but then others don't.  Critics should remember what is being attempted here - there is nothing else quite like it and so TubeWorld is a GAMBLE, an ADVENTURE, an EXPERIMENT - not everything will work out, even though quite a lot does.   There is tremendous potential in the idea, it is worth doing, but also complicated to implement -  it will take time to work it out. What works: Graphics are getting better.  Lets just keep going. Just being able to fly around - everything is implicit and there is no pre-ordained way to play with it.  But some of the landscapes have need for much improvement ...  I liked the hilly landscape with the planes in level 2. Adjustable speed - this is good for more manouverability, to help the player.  But then a Cardinal Sin is committed with it:  Speed control is a User Interface concept - and so should only be introduced to help the game player feel comfortable.  The gameplay itself should NEVER, EVER be dependent upon using a particular speed, as it is in the 3rd level. What doesn't work: "Sloppy"/"random" control of the avatars - it's not that much fun, mostly irritating.  Agreed, all the same kind of control for all of the avatars is also BORING.  So, a halfway house is the need to stage/introduce harder-to-control avatars carefully to allow for training (i.e. start easy and build up).   Avatar control must be trainable/learnable in "reasonable" time. TIME LIMITS (3rd level - The Sea of Bells and the Flying Rossette) and too much "reaction time" stuff.  Some of this might be fine, but seriously don't overdo it.  [See earlier.] What we would like more of: MORE FUN ... MORE MusicVR!  Much, much more ...  More connections with some of the original MusicVR themes/ideas (Spaceships, Rings, Cats, Horses, Mysticism, Visual Jokes - you know the stuff! ).  The original MusicVR elements had much potential for making crazy connections and what-not.  So, we might ask "What does this do?"  and "Can this help me do that?", leading to some pretty crazy ideas - but thats the whole fun part.  The game could/should exploit MUCH more of that type of thing ... Puzzles to be solved that take us somewhere, and mean something along the way.  Puzzles must be solvable by non-geniuses - otherwise it aint any fun for most of us, just frustrating.  At the same time, we should accrue benefit for solving the problem elegently and using our initiative and creativity. MORE MUSIC!  "You can't spell MusicVR without music" - (Corny, I know, ...). All of the music should be available in some standard commercial format, so reducing the temptation for the hackers to reverse engineer the game to extract the music content.  Just commercially release the music anyway - in other words, the music could be composed in symphonic form so that it just happens to contain ALL the game excepts (and loops) somewhere within the main peice.  That is quite a challenge to do - but probably satisfying even so.  Given the title of the game, it is not too hard to guess where MOST OF the music will be taken from.   I just hope that ALL of the game music will be made commercially available in its own right (no exceptions). Perhaps allow for random mission elements (perhaps with a experience level that is acquired by achievement and the number of plays) which makes repeated runs of the game more addictive and freshly challenging.  Once we have done the game once, it is nice for there to be many by-ways, nooks and crannies to explore, getting to interesting places in different ways ... Introduce constructive elements (like in the original MusicVR) so that we have to build up to something interesting and unobtainable any other way.  The paths don't have to be entirely sequential but you get the idea.  I like the idea of bringing things/avatars together, but then it should turn into something interesting - a climax of some kind, preferably with a truly marvellous guitar piece! Eventually, we should be able to go everywhere - no limits.  The more we learn about the game, the further we can go.  All the constraints/barriers from earlier stages should eventually dissappear, although other ones might appear. MORE "INTERESTING" AVATARS that can interact with objects in the world in other ways than simply flying around, firing at things and crashing into objects.  These interactions should cause things to happen and to change the world in well-defined ways.  This could potentially improve the "gameplay" without destroying the basic idea and its simplicity. For instance, as the MusicVR/TubeWorld genre is supposed to be non-violent, whats all this about "shooting" at warplanes anyway?  I suppose they do change into seagulls, but I think there could be equally fun things to do without anyone/anything having to get "shot" as such (Tractor beams, making/building things, etc.)  The sky's the limit ... More configuration options: - joystick & keyboard support. - Display element control - not just screen res. but screen elements also. - Sound elements (i.e. the beeps that indicate barriers). What we would like less of: Its too stark, man, at the moment - a bit too austere and rather lacking in life. INVISIBLE constraints that just go "beep" when you bang into them!!!   It is INCREDIBLY irritating to not be able to manipulate the hangglider avatars away from an INVISIBLE barrier.  Visual cues are needed (for prediction) - and it should be configurable wether to have audio "beeps" for barriers.   What about a gesture/button to "auto correct" the attitude of a viewer/avatar? In general, random and inconsequential design (i.e. the seven portals in a line, the over elaborated castle), with too many things that lead nowhere, gets irritating after a while.  OK, for dramatic tension, you might need some "apparent" red herrings and distraction - but there should be some plot or goal which people can recognise as an ending (which is also a beginning, of course). What would be truly awesome is to make even the apparent red herrings eventually meaningful, necessary and connected to some stage of the proceedings.  After all, we all live in a "small world" these days (and one thats getting smaller) - so everything is connected.  Whatever happens, it should take the player a while to figure it out, safe in the knowledge that it can be solved and that there is something interesting at the end of it all. In terms of "drama" and stage craft, don't bring cannons on stage unless you intend to fire them at some stage ... Blocky images when you get too close to something (usually the ground ) - this seems to irritate everyone.   A better default behaviour would be fade into a standard, but interesting, background if you get too close.  This could be what people mean by their accusation of "poor graphics" - in which case it might not be too hard to fix. What we would really, really like: As you get nearer to things, the level of detail increases so it feels as though you are getting "inside" and taking a real close look - a shift in scale.  This happens in some places in TubeWorld - but not enough.  Agreed, this is pretty hard and time-consuming to do - i.e. much more work etc.  But it would be well worth it (perhaps some kind of default framework in general helps). What I'd really like is getting in close to some things  would then open up a whole new world/level etc.  New vistas open before you ... Also, pulling out to great height is also a shift in level in which you could enter a new world etc.  Small things coalesce into other things which you can manipulate ... (As above, so below - Hermes Trismegistus). ---- Obviously, this is just a demo and so you wouldn't reasonably expect all the above here in this version.  Hopefully, feedback like this might be helpful to Mike and the team. Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: June 27 2003, 20:53 I think some of your observations would be better placed after we see the finished version but on the whole I agree. A lot of the stuff you suggest would require MVR to be much, much bigger in size (on the computer) and require much more powerfull graphics capabilities on most computers, not something thats impossible. Personaly I'd like to see a lot more depth to MVR, I'd rather it not looked like a lot of other naff computer games, this wouldn't take much. Like I've said before Mike is very obviously stretching himself way to far (on a conceptual level) by doing it all himself, it would be much improved by letting someone else help develope some of the concepts. Back to top

kris Unregistered Posted: June 28 2003, 19:43 I've been playing the Tube World demo and am a little disappointed with it, although anxiously awaiting the final version. I'm having great trouble flying in a straight line.  The banking effect is okay, but the steering is too sensitive.  I'd much rather go back to the way TresLunas was - it was fine the way it was. The graphics are fine as far as I am concerned - what made TresLunas such a unique experience were the random and unexpected elements that occurred during play.  I likened it to a lucid dream, in that I felt comfortable just flying around and experiencing everything for what it was worth.  I didn't get that same feeling in the Tube World.  Chasing after the space shuttles was highly irritating more than anything else.   I hope that the final product really makes some improvements - for one we need more music, but also it needs to be a little more unexpected. The avatars are worthless to me - same as in Tres Lunas - I refuse to operate them because its too hard. Just my two cents. Back to top

TinkerBell Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: June 2002 Posted: June 28 2003, 22:13 A few more thoughts: Confusing the Myst-like "puzzle-hunting" type games with MVR/TW would be, IMO, a big, big mistake.   MVR/TW shouldn't be a head trip - although it badly needs some dramatic tension.  Perhaps some crazy mixture of dark menace with some occasional (visual) humour could do the trick?. Keep the gestures reasonably simple. Keep it reasonably language neutral -  use as few words as possible ... Make the experience worth the whole bother of playing it - and much more fun.  As the Thin Man said, where's the chuckle gone to? What about an XBOX/Gamecube/Playstation port of MVR? .  At the moment, I'm not sure there would be that much point, to be honest. But what if MVR/TW could develop into one of those non-violent games to break the current stranglehold.  For example, Chris Sawyer's Rollercoaster Tycoon and Maxis/EA's Sims are now both available on XBOX (through Atari UK).  Check it out on Amazon. There is nothing in the rule book saying there should only ever be one "demo" - there could be more ... -------- Sadly, because of MO's well-known preference to not work with others, some big games studio (e.g. EA/Sierra, UbiSoft, Infogrammes, Microsoft) will simply grab the ideas and take them further by throwing money and people at it.  Good ideas don't die - they just get developed by someone else who then steals all the credit.  To the victor the spoils. Just think of it as Evolution in action. Back to top

Fox Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: June 29 2003, 00:37 I think we'd all like to see MVR become bigger and with more success.  But bear in mind Mike's a musician, not a game designer.  I'm sure he doesn't want to moonlight as a manager of a dozen people professionally making a game.  He'd rather make music.  With MVR, he's only got a small team, and it's more like a friendship than management.  You add corporate (professional) to this, and now he has pressure from others to make it marketable, and it becomes more like a business. Plus, would we want to pay $40 - $50 (USD) for a professionally done game from Mike?  Ok, I might, but who would really buy it besides his fans?  And since the big market share of games is in the USA, he'd have to face pressure from the market to add things to make it marketable.  No telling what he'd have to compromise on for that! If he had liscenced a game engine (say, the Unreal engine) and made TresLunas on that, everyone would complain that it looks like Unreal, or 'x' game.  And that would also jack up the price. I liked Treslunas BECAUSE it didn't look like other games.  It was unique in and of itself.  I always wish he would have spent more time making it even bigger.  But how big would have been big enough?  That's what you miss about Treslunas:  you wish it was bigger.  More!  So I agree with ideas to make the game bigger, and with more amazement. I would like to see more branch-offs.  Not just from the origin, but multiple paths to take from other areas.  i.e. the fire caverns after the UFO flight.  The whole scene seemed wasted because you couldn't do anything in there.  Add some places and sequences you can access only from there.   Maybe make Treslunas and a future episode connect to eachother for those who have both.  Or make the next episode a full-blown add on to Treslunas to put these additional scenes in those "empty" areas.  Don't make a new world; add more to Treslunas.  I want to get to the Dali-phant  haha.  Give the user a way to do that in the next add on. But get rid of the banking effect.  Nothign was wrong with how you moved in Treslunas. That's all I have. Back to top

TinkerBell Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: June 2002 Posted: June 29 2003, 10:33 Quote Fox said: I think we'd all like to see MVR become bigger and with more success. Absolutely - and that also goes for a lot of the rest you said. My suspicion, though, is that working with MO would simply be too much overhead for a major games studio - they would just replace the music source.  Why work with a brilliant loner who created the whole genre when the studios can find plenty of other musicians who are much hungrier and of similar talent? I'm no patent lawyer - but an entire games genre might be difficult for anyone to patent or copyright, even in the US.  I suspect that the games studios couldn't be easily blocked from developing a similar product to MVR/TW if they really wanted to - its happened many times before. The argument about limited fanbase simply evaporates then - just pick musicians who have bigger fanbases and who would be prepared to work on a cross-over "virtual reality chillout" concept project.  It wouldn't be MVR/TW of course - but then that's the market for you. (heresy mode on) So, is MO essential for an MVR/TW-like project?  I'm not so sure, sadly. (heresy mode off) The message is : complacency in the games arena is very dangerous.  This whole project could be overtaken and ripped off by some very big aquatic mammals - far bigger than Virgin ever were. I think we should offer MO our support - and encourage him to team up with a force to be reckoned with in the games business who will allow him some space and provide more muscle. MVR showed that the concept can work - the trouble is that its now obvious to everyone. Back to top

Fox Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: Feb. 2000 Posted: June 29 2003, 20:54 A product can be copyrighted, but an idea cannot. Look at Myst.  The game was copyrighted, but the concept of a point-and-click, non-aggressive, puzzle-based game could not be.  That's why there are so many Myst clones these days. You know you're a success when others imitate what you've done.  But there is a fine line between imitation and theft  haha. No matter what you do, someone would imitate this if they saw it could be sellable.  The issue is not if the game concept can be stolen...it's impossible to prevent that. I think everyone has great ideas for how MVR can be improved for more success.  But Mike is a musician.  The point of MVR was not graphics, gameplay or story, but to hear music with images associated with it.  It did not need a story because the point of the game was to listen to the music; like interactive CD audio.  This is the concept behind MVR.  It's a great concept, and I would personally like to see Mike add more to Treslunas instead of make different worlds.  This way we'd have to go through the whole world again to see what's new. Treslunas is unique.  I'd like him to keep making it bigger.  More sequences, more choices, more mixture of styles!  MORE!  MORE! The forest is screaming for some branch-offs.  The dice game needs to do something.  The canyon has potential for more.  I'd like a future episode to add to these areas.  Promise more episodes to come, expanding the existing universe through future updates.  Years from now, the MVR universe would be massive! Doing this, IMO, would make the whole project more interesting, get non-fans involved and maybe get some attention from the press.  If others imitate it, that's good!  It means Mike has succeeded in creating something special!  But he will have the original. But Mike is a musician.  He's probably more interested in just making music than thinking about the future of his game.  And I'm sure he'll be damned if he's going to sub-contract his creation to outsiders! Back to top

Mark 1 Group: Members Posts: 65 Joined: June 2001 Posted: June 30 2003, 08:16 Seeing how the 'normal' games have benifitted from mod development by gamers, I'd be interested in seeing an sdk released for MVR. Imagine logging in to someone's server to be surprised by new effects or standard ones in different sequences. Also, maybe MVR could get a kind of 'random mission' generator in it, changing what happens or where you start. Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: June 30 2003, 13:11 All the points made above are pretty much spot on. However there are a few things to bear in mind. As was said before, this is a pet project of Mike's and knowing him as we do the chances of him letting someone else help develope it on a conceptual level are, unfortunately for everyone, nill. Fox' you're completely correct when you say Mike is foremost a musician and not a games designer, unfortunately he doesn't see it that way and its painfully obvious at times. Its this 'jack of all trades' attitude which yet again is spreading his considerable talents to thinly. The graphics on MVR may well be apreciated for what they are by the fans but lot of people have commented on how naff they look at times, and that I'm affraid will be (or was) the biggest deciding factor as to whether it gets the publics attention. But again that brings us back round to money, bigger game engine, etc, etc. As I said before its a Catch 22 situation. However there are a few other factors which could be much easier for Mike and his team to overcome. Firstly they could easily have an amazing website devoted to the project that inspired people to take an interest. This would also include a decent avatars bullitin board. MO.com has to be the crappest MO site out there, its more than a little ironic that its the official one. Why doesn't Mike care?????? At the end of the day if Mike really wants MVR to be a big success and on his terms he needs to raise his public profile somehow and get people outside the fanbase interested in him and aware of his projects. This should all start by him leaving WEA and joining a smaller label that care about him and are willing to put some imagination into promoting him, his music and MVR. It has to be said however that none of the above will ever happen if Mike himself is not interested and you do get the ever increasing feelling he just aint, otherwise he wouldn't be where he is now. Back to top

Korgscrew Group: Super Admins Posts: 3511 Joined: Dec. 1999 Posted: June 30 2003, 14:55 Quote (Mark 1 @ June 30 2003, 13:16) I'd be interested in seeing an sdk released for MVR. Mike has talked recently of perhaps getting together some kind of network of developers in order to take Music VR further. Exactly what that would entail is something that I don't think has been decided yet, but I'd think it would include releasing sets of developer tools. In theory, he could just release the editing software, but it's quite a complex affair which might not be quite accessible enough to inspire the general public to create their own scenarios. I think that Music VR will get somewhere in time...it's just a question of whether someone else gets to the same place quicker. Back to top

TinkerBell Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: June 2002 Posted: July 05 2003, 10:43 Quote (Korgscrew @ June 30 2003, 14:55) Mike has talked recently of perhaps getting together some kind of network of developers in order to take Music VR further. Exactly what that would entail is something that I don't think has been decided yet, but I'd think it would include releasing sets of developer tools. Bravo!  This is a truly cool idea.   But then we have: Developer tools - what platforms? e.g. MSWindows/Linux/OS X. My preference is for *all* the above in some shape or form.  Otherwise potential portability problems - which must be avoided.  But then OpenGL is an open graphics standard and widely available across platform.  Need also to ensure that the data formats are suitably portable (i.e. probably XML-based). If Apple OS X were the only way forward then I would be prepared to get into that, even so. Personally, I think the idea of a small close-knit set of developers cooperating non-geographiclly via the Internet is definitely a good idea.  But how to work with existing MVR developers and their own commercial IPR?   This is something that will obviously need far more (legal) discussion. So, maybe the following idea might be of use at this point:- Halfway house - a Music VR "scenario" editor application  This would allow people to indulge their creativity to create their own dreamscapes, based upon a set of existing designs, which incorporate a rich pallette of active design elements (i.e. different characters, avatars, placements, constructions). The music could be provided using official Oldfield music clips (with some special application specific format - encrypted???) that users/fans could "link" into their scenarios using the editor.  The music clips could even be sold separately on a CD/DVD. You could then allow fans to exchange and play each others dreamscapes - all based around official Oldfield music.  This could be a way to capture peoples imaginations ... quite literally . The editor may or may not be capable of editing the official MVR games - I strongly suspect that they should not be (these games are definitive items).  This would mean the editor can only edit scenarios that had been created using compatible tools. I strongly believe that some kind of scenario editor is a natural and good idea that would be worth persuing.  I am beginning to wonder just how hard it is to do something along these lines with the right tools and so on  ... Interesting! ------- Personally, I would be interested in helping out in whatever way I could ... Back to top

Flishkin Unregistered Posted: Oct. 04 2003, 11:04 I'm a great fan of MusicVR, and this demo is a step up.  But please, if anybody is listening, please fix the following: - The mouse movement is simply too sensitive - There's no way to STOP - When chasing the aeroplanes, there's no crosshair to see where you're shooting.  After 30mins of trying to shoot those darn things, I just gave up and uninstalled the demo. Back to top

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