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maria Offline




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Posted: Sep. 30 2005, 16:54

i've been trying to decide among your suggestions and the closest to what i hear in the first verse is 'sunrise' (though i still hear those 'earrings' ) and i find sense in "have u seen the sunrise in my eyes". it could still be a reflection, but instead of fonts, of the image of the sun rising on the screen (that would make more sense than my "earrings"..)

for the voices, i can't get what u hear. i've got good headphones but maybe i should upgrade my old sony cd player..
to sum up, i've written again the song with more or less the words the majority seems to agree and some doubts.

Quote
Have you seen the sunrise in my eyes?
(Be warned. Believe it.) i still hear (Which one .. in.)
Have you seen the phases in my stars?  [(actually now i don't hear a 'f', so would 'paces in my stars? make any sense?]
(We have conceived it.) (we can't... )

Surfing I'm surfing, I'm hooked and I'm searching
I've fallen right into the net
Morning and evening I'm flying, I'm dreaming
Oh, can't keep it out of my head


Have you seen the phantom in my dream?
(we won't believe it) (which one... in)
Have you seen the spaces in between
(we have seen it) (we can ...... in)

i know we can go round and round but well, for the moment it seems fun to me :)


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...morning and evening i'm flying, i'm dreaming...
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Sep. 30 2005, 17:56

@ Solus: I still remember myself thinking, a while ago, that the verses of Five Miles Out, filtered through a Vocoder, were in fake German [Vat do you do ven you're falling, you gat zerty degreez and you're ztallin' ouch ... :D], before Mike himself told me that it was an artifact of the Vocoder itself. Here it's most probably the same thing happening. Whether the unnatural (non-English) pronunciation of that word was done on purpose, or whether it derives from the Vocaloid itself (i.e. it cannot pronounce that word in any other way) - very frankly, it is not something I really care about. :)

However, I'm still convinced that it's "si-igns". :)

@ María: "Be warned" sounding like "which one" is exactly the same as "Angelique" being pronounced Angayleek -  no pun intented :D - and "Our father" being pronounced "Awr Fatchar", and the other words scattered here and there. I'm getting kinda used to this peculiar Vocaloid pronunciation, and according to what I hear from it on L&S, the phrases are "Be warned", "Believe it" (pronounced B-lee-v - itt), and "We can't conceive it". (pronounced Wee - kent - kn - seev - itt). ;)


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Sep. 30 2005, 19:23

Quote (maria @ Sep. 30 2005, 21:54)
Have you seen the sunrise in my eyes?
(Be warned. Believe it.) i still hear (Which one .. in.)
Have you seen the phases in my stars?  [(actually now i don't hear a 'f', so would 'paces in my stars? make any sense?]
(We have conceived it.) (we can't... )

First line:
I'm not convinced about 'sunrise', though I can see why you think it's that, but the word is so ill-defined by the vocaloid distortion that it could be almost anything: 'signs', as Ugo suggests, or even 'sighs'.

But I feel fairly certain that the subsequent line is:
'Have you seen the faces in my skies?' ('phases' doesn't seem to make any sense, and isn't it 'skies', not 'stars' - rhyming with 'eyes'?), and I wonder if the line may be related to those images in the CD booklet with the face-like cloud formations?
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Solus Offline




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Posted: Oct. 01 2005, 06:47

Quote (Ugo @ Sep. 30 2005, 23:56)
I still remember myself thinking, a while ago, that the verses of Five Miles Out, filtered through a Vocoder, were in fake German, before Mike himself told me that it was an artifact of the Vocoder itself.

Wait, you've met him?
But, back to the point. I also like the sound of vocaloid (well, except in The Gate), and it goes well with the album. Also, isn't the point of using vocoder and vocaloid (and others) that is doesn't sound completely realistic. Eventually, it's not actually vocals, but just another instrument. Why not think of it in that way?
But, that's all up for debate, because there are some who dislike those synthetis vocals. I thought I would too, but here I am...
And, I'm almost completely sure it's sun-rise (spoken in a very unconventional way, but still). I just can't hear anything else. But, as I said, debate...


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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Oct. 01 2005, 08:12

Quote (Solus @ Oct. 01 2005, 12:47)
Wait, you've met him?

I chatted with him. A while ago. :)

However, back to the point... In what seems to be a contrary motion to several board members, I really like many, many, many things [if not everything!! :)] in Light & Shade, including the Vocaloid stuff. I like it for the very fact that it's synthetic - I think that a song like "Surfing", which, all in all, is a very simple song, would have sounded less appealing had it been sung by a real vocalist with no effect on his/her voice. As it is, the voice sounds neither male nor female, and this is what I like most about it. :) And after all the Vocaloid is not a real novelty in the music world - Cher made it really popular with "Believe" quite a while ago. :)
About the mysterious word, I can very much agree with Alan on the fact that it's so distorted that it could really be anything. I'm leaning towards "signs", and towards "phases" in the next line, only on the basis of my own interpretation of the words. ;)


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 01 2005, 09:50

Some new alternatives. (At various times I've 'heard' all of these! )
Have you seen the sunlight in my eyes?
Have you seen the sight(s?) in my eyes?

Although I agree it it sounds like 'phases', I suspect the 'c' in 'faces' has been hardened into 'z' by the software; so I'll stick with 'faces' myself.

I agree that 'Surfing' is enhanced by the use of the artificial voices. The content of the song and the synthetic voices work very well together, and now it would be very hard to imagine it being sung in the traditional way. I'm not yet persuaded that they enhance any of the other tracks - but this one, certainly.
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Solus Offline




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Posted: Oct. 01 2005, 13:11

I actually like vocaloid in all the tracks (except, as I mentioned, The Gate), but expecially TOAA and Surfing. On the other songs, when mostly the name of the song is mentioned (Nightshade, Resolution,...), I don't think real vocals would fit. Somehow synthetic voices go well with the theme of the songs, and the whole album. Also, it's easier for Mike to control them, and thus get exactly (or very close to) the sound he wants.
Many people say how real vocals would improve some (if not all) songs, but that's all theory. Something like "live is always better than synthetic". But, what if it wouldn't work? What if real vocals would ruin the atmosphere of the songs? I think that Five Miles Out would sound very different (have a diferent "feeling") if vocoder wasn't used. If I hear a mix where real vocals replaced synthetic ones, and I liked it, only then would I be sure. In the meantime, I'll remain sceptical.
And now a little about the lyrics. I've listened to the song just now, and it could be "faces", but somehow "phases" seem to fit better to me. But, can't explain why.
I've tried, really, to hear all those other suggestions instead of "sun-rise", but I can't. I hear the "r" sound which doesn't fit the other suggestions. So, until I see "official" lyrics, I won't be dissuaded  :) . But, it's all subjective anyway.
I've streched this post too much, so I'll stop now.


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 01 2005, 15:21

Quote (Solus @ Oct. 01 2005, 18:11)
I think that Five Miles Out would sound very different (have a diferent "feeling") if vocoder wasn't used.

Yes, I must admit that worries me a bit. I never did learn to enjoy that old vocoder stuff.
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Infinityplusone Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2005, 13:28

Hi there

After listening to it I think the lyrics are as follows:

I can see the sunrise in my eyes
(We won't believe it)
I can see the mazes in the skies
(We can't conceive it)

Chrous:
Surfing, I'm surfing
I'm hooked & I'm sufing
I've fallen right into the net
Morning and evening
I'm flying, I'm dreaming
Oh, can't get it out of my head.

I can see the phantom in my dreams
(We won't believe it)
I can see the spaces in between
(We can't conceive it)

Repeat Chorus

I know it sounds like 'have' at the beginning but the same problem appears on Tears Of An Angel where it appears that the vocals are "falling like pain" instead of "falling like rain", but I think this might just be a problem with the phonetics of the actual software used. Maybe.  :cool:
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2005, 14:56

Quote (Infinityplusone @ Oct. 03 2005, 18:28)
the same problem appears on Tears Of An Angel where it appears that the vocals are "falling like pain" instead of "falling like rain", but I think this might just be a problem with the phonetics of the actual software used.

Yes - that's the problem, though. If the software changes consonants (and it seems that it does) then there's no real hope of pinning down the 'correct' version - hence the problem with faces, phases, mazes etc.
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The Bell(end) Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2005, 15:15

Surfing would be lame without vocoloid IMO  :D


Adds to the feel of the song, as do all of the vocoloid effects on L+S  :cool:


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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2005, 04:29

Quote (Ugo @ Oct. 01 2005, 13:12)
And after all the Vocaloid is not a real novelty in the music world - Cher made it really popular with "Believe" quite a while ago. :)

That was released before Vocaloid came onto the market. Depending on who you believe, it's either a Digitech Talker vocoder (what the producers claimed at one point) or Autotune (what everyone else claims! I suspect that they made up the vocoder story so they didn't have to admit to Cher that they'd auto tuned her voice). Anyway, the stepping effect that Mike has used is indeed similar to the Believe effect.

I'd agree on 'signs' and 'faces' (what sense would 'phases' have? A phase is a state, it's not something that can be seen on its own. The sky could go through phases, though it would really be a bit of a strange thing to talk of the sky being in a particular phase, but it's not possible to have a phase in the sky).

To briefly explain the different synthetic voice technologies (it may help here or elsewhere):
A vocoder is a kind of filter. It splits the voice into a number of frequency bands, and measures the level of the signal in each band. It uses that information to control a set of filters which operate in the same frequency bands, and so can take the basic characteristics of the voice and impart them on something else. Having only a limited number of bands, and there being limitations on the filters (like the speed they open at, how steep they are, etc), it will never reproduce the characteristics of the original voice with any kind of accuracy. The sound of the words also depends on what signal's being filtered - its frequency content is also important.

Cantor is a step on from that. It has a similar system of filters (just more advanced), but can control them automatically rather than needing to be fed a voice to analyse. It has an additive synthesiser coupled to it (that being a kind of synthesiser where you choose what harmonics you want, rather than the more standard subtractive synthesis, where you choose which ones to take away), which is fed through the filters.

Vocaloid is a sample-based technology. It's a little like the wave sequencing on the Korg Wavestation, if anyone remembers that (the Wavestation too could be made to speak, with a fair amount of effort). It plays tiny little samples one after the other, building them up into words, and then phrases. This is what made it possible for them to offer the voice of Miriam Stockley as a plugin - it's based on many, many samples of her singing.

Surfing is, I believe, sung by Cantor. Tears Of An Angel is Vocaloid.
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2005, 12:36

I'm listening to "Surfing" right now. The vocaloid sounds like Jon Anderson, but more human.

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Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
- Song of Hiawatha
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2005, 16:02

Quote (hiawatha @ Oct. 04 2005, 17:36)
The vocaloid sounds like Jon Anderson, but more human.

Good observation, Hiawatha!!!
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2005, 16:30

Nothing makes me believe that the synth vocals would work better than a real, processed voice. There are so many cool things you can do with someone's voice!

In my mind, the problem isn't whether computers should be allowed to sing or not. The question is HOW they are used:

To replace real singers? BAD, BAD, BAD IDEA. PERIOD.
To stun us with the amazing powers of a computer software? That would be doing with music what Pixar does with movies.
To do things that human voices can't do? Hm... just listen to what some real singers can do with their voices. In general, it's MUCH more impressive than anything a computer can do.
To create a synthesized, detached effect?... Ooh, now we're talking. But so far, one of the very few examples of a synthetic voice that works the desired way is in Radiohead's "Fitter, Happier". It's a really, really tricky job to find a good use for a synth voice. I, myself, just would have no idea of what to do with one. And I don't think Light + Shade was very inspirational, either... I think it falls more on the "oooh, just look at the amazing things I can do with this software" category. It's more showing-off than experimentation, to my ears.


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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2005, 17:39

@ Infinityplusone: After listening some more, I can agree with you on "sunrise" and "mazes", but not on "I can see" (all occurrences of it) and on "We won't believe it". I can clearly hear the very first sound in the song as an H, because it's the very same sound of the first letter of the last word of the chorus, on which we've all agreed being "head". :). Plus, I can distincly hear an N sound at the end of the third word, so IMHO the phrase is "Have you seen". ;)
Similarily, on the first "we won't", I think I hear a D at the end and a R in the middle, so I'm still leaning towards "Be warned".

@ Sir M.: to your ears Mike's use of the Vocaloid may be showing-off, to my ears it's nothing but fascinating. Sorry for repeating what I've said above, but I love the synthetic voice in "Surfing" and "Tears of an angel" because of the very fact that it's synthetic. I think it just wouldn't work with a real voice.
Also, I don't like Radiohead at all. Sorry. ;)

@ Alan: Do you mean that Jon Anderson's voice sounds like a non-human one? :D


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maria Offline




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Posted: Oct. 05 2005, 08:50

Quote (Alan D @ Oct. 03 2005, 14:56)
...If the software changes consonants (and it seems that it does) then there's no real hope of pinning down the 'correct' version - hence the problem with faces, phases, mazes etc.

yes, i see there are sounds which could be several different words and i haven't been able to decide yet what i'm really listening to. some of the suggestions make more sense than others, but who knows... this could  be an endless task, unless someday, somewhere the lyrics appeared officially written......
talking about the virtual voices, they aren't annoying for me, just a different kind of thing and imho they fit perfectly in 'surfing' (i'm not so sure about 'tears of an angel', i wouldn't dislike real voices there) but i'm sure in 'surfing' they picture its sense and the "weird cyber air" of the song. the only problem for me is that it makes it a bit more difficult to understand what it's said !!

ps. hhmmm.....mike, please... could u tell us what those virtual voices are saying?


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jeremyroberts Offline




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Posted: Oct. 06 2005, 17:21

Quote (Ugo @ Sep. 30 2005, 15:08)
However, I also think we could be arguing for ages about this - like "presented her sex" [Family Man]

It's definitely, "presented herself"  ;)  (as heard in the Hall & Oates version)
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Oct. 07 2005, 09:08

@ Jeremy: yes of course it is, but as I said it's been argued about for ages, here & elsewhere. ;)

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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Oct. 07 2005, 16:06

Quote (Ugo @ Oct. 04 2005, 22:39)
@ Alan: Do you mean that Jon Anderson's voice sounds like a non-human one? :D

I'm not a fan of Jon Anderson I'm afraid, and I  thought Hiawatha's comment was very acute. The Vocaloid in Surfing does very much remind me of Jon Anderson's voice, but does indeed seem more emotional to my ears!
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