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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 06:04

I've just listened to TB3 again, and the following (which may or may not have been noticed before) occurred to me:

1. The final bell sound on the record is not that of tubular bells, but church bells - presumably an autobiographical allusion to Mike's rejoining the church.

2. The voice of the Caveman seems to be present at the end of "Outcast". I had assumed that he was absent from TB3, but I don't think he is!

3. Variations on a section of "Outcast", played on an electronic instrument, appear as the backing rhythm of "Secrets", about 20 seconds in.

TB3 is a much better piece than I gave it credit for, although I still dislike "Man in the Rain": the way the words are distorted to fit the music, and also the singer's thin, reedy voice (although this may have been intended to connote vulnerability, in which case I understand why it was used).
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Matt Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 06:37

Quote (nightspore @ July 01 2008, 11:04)
... I still dislike "Man in the Rain": the way the words are distorted to fit the music, and also the singer's thin, reedy voice ...

Jings, Man in the Rain is about the only track on the album I like and I love Cara Dillons voice!

Oh well, the world would be a dull place indeed if everyone had the same views  :D


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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 07:53

I'd agree with you Nightspore.Mike has said that MITR was written around the same time as Moonlight Shadow so that's why there are similarities.I really don't like the guitar sound in the intro though.Sounds like an 80's electro acoustic with too many effects on it.
What i fail to understand is why it's been placed in the middle of a TB album.It's not that i particuarly dislike the track.I neither like it or dislike it really,it just is,but it kind of spoils the flow of the album as a whole.In fairness though there wasn't really any album of his of this period that it would have fitted on and as a single it would have sank without trace in the UK.


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 07:55

The album's feel is very aggressive. It's as though Mike wants to say "these are my demons, but I'm going to bury them and get on with my life". And he does so.

I hadn't realised what an appealing piece "Top of the Morning" is, in particular. Also, the title "Serpent Dream" seems to fit "The Outcast" better than the piece it currently names: all those angry, fiery guitar sounds fighting one another; it's quite demonic and very effective.
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 07:58

Quote (The Caveman @ July 01 2008, 07:53)
What i fail to understand is why it's been placed in the middle of a TB album.

Hi Caveman. The way I read it is that Mike wanted the progression from the storms at the beginning to the sunshine and the birds singing at the end; so a man "lost in the rain" would seem to have to be in the middle somewhere. But yes, I agree with you; the idea works in theory but otherwise the flow is spoilt.
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 08:02

Going back to your idea of Mike burying his demons he does say in Outcast (or a sample does)"out demons out"so you're probably right.Top of the morning is beautifull though.

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Matt Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 08:07

Quote (nightspore @ July 01 2008, 12:58)
Quote (The Caveman @ July 01 2008, 07:53)
What i fail to understand is why it's been placed in the middle of a TB album.

Hi Caveman. The way I read it is that Mike wanted the progression from the storms at the beginning to the sunshine and the birds singing at the end; so a man "lost in the rain" would seem to have to be in the middle somewhere. But yes, I agree with you; the idea works in theory but otherwise the flow is spoilt.

I'd always felt he added in as a commercial opportunity? something to put out as a single that might do well and help the sale of the album. I also don't see how it fits within the rest of the album!


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 08:59

Quote (The Caveman @ July 01 2008, 08:02)
Going back to your idea of Mike burying his demons he does say in Outcast (or a sample does)"out demons out"so you're probably right.Top of the morning is beautifull though.

Really? That's astonishing; I'll have to listen to it again. One thing is certain: Mike knows exactly how to achieve the effect he wants, in all his music.
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 09:12

It's a little electronic voice heard in the 'verse' sections from about half way in.Only noticed myself recently.Very odd considering your choice of words.

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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 09:37

I`m pretty sure Man In The Rain did`nt chart,but it did recieve extensive airtime on Radio 2 I remember.Not really a heavy singles buying audience are your average listeners to that station.But I dare say a fair few of them would have went out and bought the album after hearing that song.Even if it was only serving as a kind of marker that Mike Oldfield had a new album out.

So I must admit originaly Man In The Rain did sound out of place a little bit to me.But in all honesty I think I`ve grown to like where it is now.Kind of like an intermission I suppose in the middle of the main feature.."and now a word from our sponsors."..I also like the way it kind of just disappears quickly into the wind at the end there.."That`s me done I`m off..And now we return you to our main presentation."

And as a song yeah she`s a little bit like Moonlight Shadow`s awkward ungainly younger sister I suppose.A little rougher round the edges,not quite as polished and pristine.Come on guys you know the type I`m talking about here.This is the movies after all...Isn`t it?
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 11:07

Seen in that context, the tubular bell sounds in "Far Above the Clouds" are like great hammer blows to finally seal up the demons in some vast vault, so that Mike can soar above it all to that sunny world where the church bells are calling him. It's a startlingly autobiographical piece of music, when you look at it closely. It's also pleasant to know that it all turned out well for him.
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Olivier Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 11:17

I find it interesting that Music of the Spheres uses a very similar structure (arpeggio at the beginning, arpeggio reprise, song in the middle, acoustic guitar in the middle, piano cavalcade, bass riff at the end, etc.) Surprising at first, because Tubular Bells III seemed disorganized to my ears, while Music of the Spheres sounds more strict.
There is an atmosphere about it that I like, it's like he brought life to computers and made them rock, they are mixed nicely with analog manual instruments. Man in the Rain was actually a dormant sophisticated song but yet I find the album sounds spontaneous, innocent and fresh. With Tubular Bells III it's like you have the windows open, they are closed with Music of the Spheres.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 11:50

Quote (The Caveman @ July 01 2008, 07:53)
I'd agree with you Nightspore.Mike has said that MITR was written around the same time as Moonlight Shadow so that's why there are similarities.I really don't like the guitar sound in the intro though.Sounds like an 80's electro acoustic with too many effects on it.

Try listening to the intro of Time Stand Still, by Rush. You'll be shocked at how scarily, scarily similar those two introductions are. Even the key is the same.

So, I'm reading through all the meaning of the album and wondering: what exactly are those "demons"? Lack of creativity for writing melodies? Factory preset sounds of synthesizers? Or the "OH MY GOODNESS MY EARS HURT", mandatory, unnecessary increase in the master volume at the end of every track, most notably Outcast?

("he's the angriest fan you've ever hearrrrrrrrrrrrrrd / He's the angry Mike Oldfield nerrrrrrrrrrrrd / etc.")


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Holger Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 14:08

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ July 01 2008, 17:50)
Try listening to the intro of Time Stand Still, by Rush. You'll be shocked at how scarily, scarily similar those two introductions are. Even the key is the same.

Haha! I never noticed that, but dammit, you're right!  :laugh:
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 20:59

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ July 01 2008, 11:50)
So, I'm reading through all the meaning of the album and wondering: what exactly are those "demons"? Lack of creativity for writing melodies? Factory preset sounds of synthesizers? Or the "OH MY GOODNESS MY EARS HURT", mandatory, unnecessary increase in the master volume at the end of every track, most notably Outcast?

("he's the angriest fan you've ever hearrrrrrrrrrrrrrd / He's the angry Mike Oldfield nerrrrrrrrrrrrd / etc.")

With regard to Mike's "demons", Sir M, read his autobiography. I don't want to intrude on his privacy by indulging in speculations here.

Again, Sir M, you insist on passing off subjective responses as objective facts. In what sense, for example, does "Top of the Morning" demonstrate "a lack of creativity for writing melodies"? If memorability is a criterion, "Top of the Morning" passes with flying colours, as I can't get it out of my mind! But that's just my response, demonstrating the uselessness of subjective responses. So if you don't think "Top of the Morning" has a creative melody, you'll have to provide objective criteria to support your argument. Are you saying, for example, that someone else has used a similar melody? If that is so, provide examples! But I suspect you'll ultimately need a degree in music to convince anyone, especially here, where I suspect yours is a lone voice.

With regard to the increase in volume in "Outcast", the piece is about demons. Demons are loud, aggressive beasties; trying to express their nature in any way other than the way Mike does (and in my opinion he does a terrific job) would be absurd.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 22:50

It was really mostly a joke (that's why I stuck in that addendum at the end, hoping people wouldn't take that as a serious complaint and more as an off-track rant). But I can't say I was lying there. The Top of the Morning might have the most discernible melody in the album, but if you want practical examples, well, once I overheard that song in the soundtrack of some generic TV programme showing a report about something. It sounded one hundred percent indiscernible from the rest of the generic TV soundtrack filler; matter of fact, those chords in the chorus sound like they come from some hospital drama or something, or from a TV teaser for the "New features coming up in July, on Discovery Channel", showing some birds flying, flowers blooming, clouds whooshing by in time-lapse and such. And judging by the time it was released, I can't say the song set the standard for that kind of cliché.

But the rest of the album, well, Serpent Dream is a string of Spanish clichés, and coming from the guy who wrote the flamenco bits of Amarok, I'd expect it to be a good-humoured throwaway. And Outcast could be the soundtrack of Pac Man, as the guitar goes on a "wakka-wakka-wakka-wakka-wakka-wakka" without end. And The Inner Child is the worst offender, as that "climactic" hook in the chorus is, note for note, identical to the main hook of that cheesy 80's hit single The Power of Love by Jennifer Rush.

As for the volume increase, now, I know what a climax is meant to be, but come on! Outcast is already loud and noisy, but on that track, Mike Oldfield nearly fulfils the awful stereotype that every, every, every song he writes must end on a gargantuan, Earth shattering climax of some kind; if he sang a children's lullaby, he'd probably want it to end with a 120 piece choir yelling into megaphones. The whole song is intense, but at the end, he just flicks up the master volume to the top and causes the whole noise to burst beyond the human comprehension of dynamic overcompression, sending the poor sound levels to the red area and beyond!!, and you know dynamic overcompression is a bad, bad, bad thing.

Now, you see, I'm making an effort here not to sound serious, because this is all highly subjective, I guess. I can make an effort to judge stuff like Taurus II and Crises somewhat objectively, but I figured out I can't talk seriously about Tubular Bells III because I can't take it seriously; and this is bad, considering the album is meant to be serious. As for being alone, I guess I'm just one of the few to invade a congratulatory thread to spill my negative criticism over it, and that's why I keep my sense of humour activated during these times. Maybe it's a bit obscure, but some people would consider that a quality, so who knows!


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Olivier Offline




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Posted: July 01 2008, 23:01

Top of the Morning is very similar to OMD's Enola Gay. Each time I play it, I end up morphing it to Enola Gay.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=szIx2hOiVWs (warning: 80's)
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: July 02 2008, 01:14

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ July 02 2008, 03:50)
As for being alone, I guess I'm just one of the few to invade a congratulatory thread to spill my negative criticism over it, and that's why I keep my sense of humour activated during these times. Maybe it's a bit obscure, but some people would consider that a quality, so who knows!

I don't think there's anything wrong with negative criticism as part of a discussion, but I think when it becomes a rant, it becomes a dangerous thing, even when there's humour behind it...it's easy to mistake for unnecessary negativity, and may end up attracting more in return, which I think we've had rather too much of lately.

I don't really see the thread as congratulatory either...there's been at least a scattering of negative remarks about aspects of the album as well. It's been balanced, which is how it should be. It would be nice to see more careful, sensitive placement and less spilling...

Now...to the album...I have to say, I can't quite get my head round the volume increase/over-compression thing. Compression by its very nature flattens out dynamic range, as does clipping, which is what happens when things go into the red (drive something hard up against the limit and it can't go any higher...you do get an increase in harmonics though, which can lead to the sound being perceived as louder). I'd say that over-compression is rather a subjective term - when is something too compressed? When it's offensive to listen to...now granted we could talk theory and go into what effect different levels of compression and use of dynamic range are going to have on the listener, and from that draw a conclusion as to what might and what might not be a good idea, but there's still that question of what the intent was. Talking in general terms about things being over-compressed as if there's a point beyond which no recording should ever go would be, to my way of seeing things at least, rather like trying to argue that there's a point where there's too much black in a painting...all that said, if we assume that something is over-compressed when there's precious little dynamic range left, then you can't have an increase in volume. I haven't actually looked at the sound levels for Outcast, neither have I listened to it for a while, but I remember it as being a fairly conservative increase in volume, accompanied by a general thickening of the mix as more instruments come in. I don't find that too objectionable; I would do if he'd done something which, say, caused pumping, or a really obvious and sudden drop in level of all the rest of the mix as the new parts enter (which unless it was used to brilliant creative effect, would most likely be something that could be taken as a sign of too heavy handed mix compression). It certainly doesn't clip at any point (though of course there are plenty of distorted guitars there, which are basically clipping...but I mean to say the mix doesn't seem to be attempting to do the impossible and go beyond 0dbfs).

I would say that the heightening of intensity at that point is probably intended to have the effect of building up a feeling of increasing anguish and disorientation (if we take the guitars as being voices, we could say they're all shouting at once, and as the layers build, they become more overwhelming), leading up to ' the mighty fall' (its working title), which then heightens feeling of a brief moment of calm at the beginning of Serpent Dream. It's certainly not the first time that effect has been used in music, but I can't say I ever felt it was unnecessary in that context. I think it needs to do something at that point, and building up to a crescendo is a valid way of approaching it. I suppose it could be debated whether it's too much of a crescendo. I'm thinking of Elgar's Enigma variations here and the way he plays with climaxes during the course of the variations, which I've always found particularly well handled...I think his use of mini-climaxes is more sparing, and in the case of Nimrod, which feels like it's about to finish on a huge crashing chord, very deliberately dies back down instead, leaving the full climax to the very last chord of the final variation, which he further emphasises by introducing the full might of the pipe organ, rather like the way Mike uses the bells in Far Above the Clouds.  I think what draws me to make the comparison above all is the way that with the Enigma variations, Elgar is presenting a set of small pieces put alongside each other in a way that forms a unified whole, rather like the tracks in Tubular Bells III.

A few little things that might be of interest. The concert programme mentions that Outcast "came from Mike's reflections on the way Ibizan life forces you to experience emotional highs and lows," the demons being the lows, I'd suppose.

I could swear that I remember Mike saying that the sounds at the end of Far Above the Clouds were supposed to represent his return to English village life, but I can't seem to find where he says that. What I have been able to find, though, is a small explanation in the Mojo Magazine 10 favourite tracks article:
"After the very last bell, it's like cracking an egg and out come all these millions of birds, and some church bells. To me, church bells sound like jazz, because they're all slightly out of time. So I made a little jazz rhythm from a church bell sample. So, after everything, it's ultimately a positive ending. It's a bit like a death and then a rebirth. You don't know what's going to happen but it feels like a new beginning." Hmm...birds flying out an egg...that sounds familiar. A new beginning indeed - heaven's open, fly right in!
I wouldn't personally want to put too much importance on the Christian aspect of the church bells - he's always claimed to not follow any particular religion, as far as I'm aware, though he mentioned in the BBC Heaven and Earth programme that he likes places of worship in general (he actually does use the word church, but adds 'it doesn't matter what religion' ) because of the feeling of calm there, so I think the sounds at the end can certainly be taken to represent peace and calm.
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: July 02 2008, 01:18

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ July 01 2008, 22:50)
It was really mostly a joke (that's why I stuck in that addendum at the end, hoping people wouldn't take that as a serious complaint and more as an off-track rant). But I can't say I was lying there. The Top of the Morning might have the most discernible melody in the album, but if you want practical examples, well, once I overheard that song in the soundtrack of some generic TV programme showing a report about something. It sounded one hundred percent indiscernible from the rest of the generic TV soundtrack filler; matter of fact, those chords in the chorus sound like they come from some hospital drama or something, or from a TV teaser for the "New features coming up in July, on Discovery Channel", showing some birds flying, flowers blooming, clouds whooshing by in time-lapse and such. And judging by the time it was released, I can't say the song set the standard for that kind of cliché.

But the rest of the album, well, Serpent Dream is a string of Spanish clichés, and coming from the guy who wrote the flamenco bits of Amarok, I'd expect it to be a good-humoured throwaway. And Outcast could be the soundtrack of Pac Man, as the guitar goes on a "wakka-wakka-wakka-wakka-wakka-wakka" without end. And The Inner Child is the worst offender, as that "climactic" hook in the chorus is, note for note, identical to the main hook of that cheesy 80's hit single The Power of Love by Jennifer Rush.

As for the volume increase, now, I know what a climax is meant to be, but come on! Outcast is already loud and noisy, but on that track, Mike Oldfield nearly fulfils the awful stereotype that every, every, every song he writes must end on a gargantuan, Earth shattering climax of some kind; if he sang a children's lullaby, he'd probably want it to end with a 120 piece choir yelling into megaphones. The whole song is intense, but at the end, he just flicks up the master volume to the top and causes the whole noise to burst beyond the human comprehension of dynamic overcompression, sending the poor sound levels to the red area and beyond!!, and you know dynamic overcompression is a bad, bad, bad thing.

Now, you see, I'm making an effort here not to sound serious, because this is all highly subjective, I guess. I can make an effort to judge stuff like Taurus II and Crises somewhat objectively, but I figured out I can't talk seriously about Tubular Bells III because I can't take it seriously; and this is bad, considering the album is meant to be serious. As for being alone, I guess I'm just one of the few to invade a congratulatory thread to spill my negative criticism over it, and that's why I keep my sense of humour activated during these times. Maybe it's a bit obscure, but some people would consider that a quality, so who knows!

Sir M, there's a branch of mathematics called "Ramsey Theory" that proves that if you have a domain of sufficient complexity it's possible to find in it any pattern of your choosing. This explains the well known phenomenon of "figures in the carpet", and the ability to find any message you like encoded in the Bible. I suggest that if you're finding resemblances to Mike's music in countless TV programmes and pop songs the only conclusion to be drawn is that you're watching too much TV and listening to too many pop songs.

Next point: as I've said before,  it's meaningless to say "such and such melody is a cliche", because by the standards of academic music all melody is a cliche; that's why modern classical music tends to sound like the noisy bits from Amarok.     It has been remarked that the melody of "Sunset" from Light and Shade is similar to a melody from Sibelius's second symphony. Well, Sibelius himself was considered rather old-fashioned, way back in the early twentieth century, for writing Romantic-period style melodies.

Why do you have a problem with Mike's use of climaxes? I find them enjoyable, just another one of his instantly-recognizable musical signatures. Rossini (a classical composer) used climaxes a great deal, too, to the extent that a particular kind of climax became known as "the Rossini climax". Perhaps we'll soon be able to talk of "the Oldfield climax"!

That you can't take TB3 seriously doesn't really come into it. The record is seriously-intentioned, if only because of the obviously autobiographical references it has. Why not just say "I don't like TB3" and leave it at that?
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Posted: July 02 2008, 01:57

Quote (nightspore @ July 02 2008, 06:18)
I suggest that if you're finding resemblances to Mike's music in countless TV programmes and pop songs the only conclusion to be drawn is that you're watching too much TV and listening to too many pop songs.

Or that they all use similar structures and combinations of sounds which have been found pleasing to the ear (as you yourself allude to in your next point). Of course, a similar conclusion could be drawn that those who noted the similarity between Sunset and that piece of Sibelius had been listening to too much Sibelius...or perhaps they're a bit too obsessed with Mike Oldfield for their own good. I can't imagine that anyone saying that kind of thing here would earn him or herself too many friends though, and that person might rather quickly lose the respect of the people who were once on his or her side. I find it hard to see that outcome as a good thing, so I'd suggest that it might be a good idea for nobody to say anything like it...
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