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Topic: Santa Maria, Sailing from Side to Side< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
nightspore Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2010, 01:27

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 03 2010, 00:21)
Except in the case of Millenniun Bell, the intention isn't subjective at all: Mike stated that the album was meant to be a musical portrait of the last millennium right since day 0, and each song has a very specific meaning. I'm discussing the album solely on its own terms here.

I meant "subconscious" - slip of the keyboard. When you start out as an artist (or even learning to ride a bike) it's all conscious - but then as you progress subconscious faculties take over.

Given that, I don't know how to tell whether any aspect of a text is "conscious repetition" or "mindless self-parody". Given Mr O's fondness for made-up words, it could be the latter - but if it is, I assume you'd also have no time for those pieces of his that contain such words? (I know you don't like Taurus 2 or Celt, so I could be on the right track here.)
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2010, 01:29

No, it can't be that: you like Amarok, and that of course has its share of nonsense (= mindless?) words.
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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2010, 05:36

If the storyline is autobiographical then "Santa Maria" could represent the Catholic Church. We know from "The Changeling" that even as a child Mike felt let down by The Church.

My interpretation: - the boy's lone voice is praying over and over, all hopeful and trusting, as if to say love me to safety. The male voices also pray - they have an air of authority, but they are remote and detached from the boy, and give no peace and comfort. The boy is following their doctrine and praying as he is told to do , but he is still alone and damned.

(Maybe 'damned' is a bit strong word but I'll keep it in there - because master Mike sure had his hell on earth as a kid.)


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2010, 06:43

Quote (wiga @ Oct. 03 2010, 05:36)
If the storyline is autobiographical then "Santa Maria" could represent the Catholic Church. We know from "The Changeling" that even as a child Mike felt let down by The Church.

My interpretation: - the boy's lone voice is praying over and over, all hopeful and trusting, as if to say love me to safety. The male voices also pray - they have an air of authority, but they are remote and detached from the boy, and give no peace and comfort. The boy is following their doctrine and praying as he is told to do , but he is still alone and damned.

(Maybe 'damned' is a bit strong word but I'll keep it in there - because master Mike sure had his hell on earth as a kid.)

Given Columbus's background, Wiga, I think it would be hard to argue that the Catholic church isn't in there somewhere. I like the way you've separated the voices, giving possible interpretations to the strands, and showing that there's not mere repetition going on. I didn't know that Mr O had felt let down by the chuch - but then I haven't read Changeling. Presumably he found it again, given pieces like "Our Father" on LaS.
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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2010, 07:11

Nightspore, I don't think he lost his spirituality or belief in God, but he became disillusioned with organised religion at a very early age.

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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2010, 09:07

The words "Santa Maria" are very repetitive, and the Catholics engage in many repetitious prayers and rote prayers, which can come across as rather mechanical and insincere. For me, this is Mike's reality as reflected in the storyline, and so as I absorb this episode in Mikes life, at "Santa Maria," it has an effect on me - mainly empathic. Not just for Mike but for my own mother who suffered at the hands of nuns - that's the uncomfortable aspect for me.

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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Oct. 03 2010, 20:52

Quote (wiga @ Oct. 03 2010, 09:07)
The words "Santa Maria" are very repetitive, and the Catholics engage in many repetitious prayers and rote prayers,

Yes, that's what I was trying to express when I said the music has a mantra-like quality (similar idea, different religion).
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2010, 07:08

If the people in the song are praying, why are they praying to a ship? And if it represents such oppression and disillusionment, why does it sound so purposefully triumphant and jubilant?

I call Occam's razor on that and say that the song merely represents the arrival of the Europeans on the New World, which "coincidently" comes after the representation of the ancient cultures of the Andes (Pacha Mama) and before the liberation of the slaves (Sunlight Shining Through Cloud). Any other explanation seems too unwieldy to be feasible; if there's anything about Catholicism in the song, then it would be in direct confront with the aboriginal cultures, and there's no such representation in the song.  Come to think of it, the only tinge of religiousness in the whole album happens on Peace on Earth, and it's a positive appearance!


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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2010, 07:50

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 04 2010, 12:08)
If the people in the song are praying, why are they praying to a ship? And if it represents such oppression and disillusionment, why does it sound so purposefully triumphant and jubilant?

I call Occam's razor on that and say that the song merely represents the arrival of the Europeans on the New World, which "coincidently" comes after the representation of the ancient cultures of the Andes (Pacha Mama) and before the liberation of the slaves (Sunlight Shining Through Cloud). Any other explanation seems too unwieldy to be feasible; if there's anything about Catholicism in the song, then it would be in direct confront with the aboriginal cultures, and there's no such representation in the song.  Come to think of it, the only tinge of religiousness in the whole album happens on Peace on Earth, and it's a positive appearance!

Mustapha - Are there only absolutes?  I'm open minded, and believe that there could be several threads and levels of meaning running through the whole album.

My questions:-

1. Looking at your theory of the Europeans arriving in the New World, from which track do you interpret that and how?

2. How are the ancient cultures of the Andes represented in "Pacha Mama"?

3. What song are you referring to which represents aboriginal cultures and how have you linked it?

The Catholic Church or other religious influence, - I get  in "Peace on Earth", "Santa Maria", and "Sunlight Shining Though Cloud."


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2010, 08:37

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 04 2010, 07:08)
 Come to think of it, the only tinge of religiousness in the whole album happens on Peace on Earth, and it's a positive appearance!

Sir M, the poststructuralists (eg Derrida) would say that the very fact that the word "Saint" (Sancta) appears in the text means that religion/Catholicism has always already left a trace on the text.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2010, 12:25

Quote

1. Looking at your theory of the Europeans arriving in the New World, from which track do you interpret that and how?

2. How are the ancient cultures of the Andes represented in "Pacha Mama"?

3. What song are you referring to which represents aboriginal cultures and how have you linked it?


The three questions are pretty much the same, and thus answered:

Oldfield travelled to the Andes; he touched the earth, he listened to the Indian people and he got shock by its power: sure that Pacha Mama, Earth Mother, had enlightened there the beginning of the world. "No, it is not necessary that the human being returns to the Earth Mother: he is a part of it, of the universe; the problem is that in some way we all feel independent, separated from it". Peru without why: "There the people are much more linked to the earth".

But comes Christopher Colombus and he believes that this is America: slavery. Oldfield travelled to Senegal, to the hearth of trade, camps as human farms, will be able his sons to forget it? "It is a big challenge for the slave's descendants, it is like a character and humanity proof. Yes, sure that someone of them can forget it". The lyrics are from an ancient captain ship and it sounds over gospel chorus.


Source: El Mundo

The interpretation of each track, as well as the album as a whole, comes from Mike himself, not from vivid speculation. I wouldn't be defending these interpretations so ardently if they hadn't been passed as the gospel by the actual artist; my personal interpretations are completely subjective and I offer them as such, but when the artist comes forth and says "This is what my work is all about", you haven't got much choice.

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The Catholic Church or other religious influence, - I get  in "Peace on Earth", "Santa Maria", and "Sunlight Shining Though Cloud."


The last one qualifies, I guess; even though the song is not ABOUT the Church, the reference is definitely there.


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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2010, 13:54

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 04 2010, 17:25)
The interpretation of each track, as well as the album as a whole, comes from Mike himself, not from vivid speculation. I wouldn't be defending these interpretations so ardently if they hadn't been passed as the gospel by the actual artist; my personal interpretations are completely subjective and I offer them as such, but when the artist comes forth and says "This is what my work is all about", you haven't got much choice.

Well I think that's a cop out Mustapha.

The music is Mike's text and so it's necessary to reflect and interpret it.  The only way to do that is to LISTEN to the music. And to be honest Mustapha, I can't imagine you want to do that because, as you've said numerous times, you don't like TMB.

The various locations that you quote are the backdrop, yes,  but as Mike says, "I search for the spirit of things" and this implies that the deeper levels of themes and messages are in the text, and are the real reason he chose to compose what he did. He hasn't actually spelled those messages out to us prior to us listening to the music.

"Santa Marie" is, on one level, about a ship travelling to the New World,  but when I listen to the music I hear a choir boy singing, like he's in a church, and then I hear a male voice choir. What's all that about I ask myself. And there's an awful lot of Catholic churches called Santa Maria - there might be a Catholic link. And so on .... This is how I reflect and interpret. Mike creates layers of meaning beyond 'on the surface' through the use of irony, metaphors and symbols, and therefore I can't take at face value a bunch of guys on a ship - like, that's it - that's all the story's about.


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2010, 14:41

Quote (wiga @ Oct. 04 2010, 13:54)
Mike creates layers of meaning beyond 'on the surface' through the use of irony, metaphors and symbols

You got me there -- I always have seen Mike as the exact opposite of that. He's amazing at putting sounds together, but when it comes to meaning, he's absolutely shallow and obvious. That's not his strength and has never been. I fail to see even one single instance of a work by Mike Oldfield that has deeply layered meanings.

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I can't take at face value a bunch of guys on a ship - like, that's it - that's all the story's about.


If the "story" is so poor, maybe it's just because it really is? Mike's sole aim with The Millennium Bell was to make an awesome show to commemorate the turn of the millennium (and he blew even that one, as the new millennium only officially started one year later). If there's any intention at making a jab at the Catholic church in Santa Maria, who would be the actual victims of such oppression: the angelic choir boy voice of a typically white and blond european kid, or a black skinned indian whose culture was brutalised and disrespected by said church? Mike tackles the slaves's freedom in Sunlight Shining Through Cloud, and even that song is celebratory and joyful, instead of bitter and corrosive. Your interpretation, as personal as it may be, is just incoherent, and is not solid enough to counter my criticism of the song -- namely that the vocal repetition is the sign of sheer lack of effort.


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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2010, 15:25

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 04 2010, 19:41)
He's amazing at putting sounds together, but when it comes to meaning, he's absolutely shallow and obvious. That's not his strength and has never been.

Oh rickety bollocks.  :laugh:

Depends what you're listening to - if it's his pop songs - they are one-dimensional. His instrumentals on the other hand are deep.

Reading between YOUR lines - all you seem to be saying AGAIN is how much you dislike TMB.


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Oct. 04 2010, 17:02

Quote (wiga @ Oct. 04 2010, 15:25)
Depends what you're listening to - if it's his pop songs - they are one-dimensional. His instrumentals on the other hand are deep.

I'm talking exactly about those.

Quote
Reading between YOUR lines - all you seem to be saying AGAIN is how much you dislike TMB.


Well, I am, but I am giving a quite damn solid and reasonable justification for it.


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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 05 2010, 09:54

Mustapha  - you said, "when it comes to meaning, he's absolutely shallow and obvious."

Is that a reasonable thing to say?  There I was sharing my thoughts about further possible 'meanings', and you're saying, don't bother - there are NO meanings - Mike's too shallow and obvious for that - it's just men sailing on a boat. :/


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Oct. 05 2010, 12:29

Quote (wiga @ Oct. 05 2010, 09:54)
Mustapha  - you said, "when it comes to meaning, he's absolutely shallow and obvious."

Is that a reasonable thing to say?  There I was sharing my thoughts about further possible 'meanings', and you're saying, don't bother - there are NO meanings - Mike's too shallow and obvious for that - it's just men sailing on a boat. :/

I can't see why that's unreasonable. Harsh, maybe, but unreasonable? That's a very solid opinion I have, and it has been tested against everything Mike has released so far. Mike has never been a guy of "meanings", but a guy of "feelings", moods, sensations, emotions and whatever else. What is, say, Hergest Ridge all about? It's about exactly that: Hergest Ridge.

The thing is: does that diminish the work? Why are the "meanings" such an important thing that "having little or no meaning" would be such a completely unreasonable thing to say? So Santa Maria is "just men on a boat", but couldn't that be an extremely powerful image to explore? La Dolce Vita is "just a journalist meeting people", but it goes to extreme lenghts to explore that theme; La Gioconda is just a portrait of a woman smiling, but look at what it represents!


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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 05 2010, 14:21

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Oct. 05 2010, 17:29)
Mike has never been a guy of "meanings", but a guy of "feelings", moods, sensations, emotions and whatever else. What is, say, Hergest Ridge all about? It's about exactly that: Hergest Ridge.

When I talk about 'meanings' I'm talking about what Mike is conveying or expressing in the music, and in the main it IS, - "feelings, moods, sensations, emotions and whatever else" -  as you say.

The way I see it, The ship (or "Hergest Ridge") is like the stage setting and onto that Mike (consciously or unconsciously) projects himself. I listen, reflect, and interpret what he's conveying or expressing - that's the 'meaning' - usually it's an emotion or a mood.

With "Santa Maria" all is not as it first seems to me, and there are contradictions in the mood - something doesn't add up. I have made some suggestions, but I can't quite articulate the levels of meaning that I get. It''s a bit like interpreting dreams....

Btw, if Mike is a guy who is capable of feeling and expressing his full range of emotions, I don't get how he is "absolutely shallow"?


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Posted: Oct. 06 2010, 15:57

Quote (wiga @ Oct. 05 2010, 14:21)
When I talk about 'meanings' I'm talking about what Mike is conveying or expressing in the music, and in the main it IS, - "feelings, moods, sensations, emotions and whatever else" -  as you say.

A mood, or a feeling, doesn't necessarily mean anything. "Sadness", as a feeling, has no meaning; a sad song, in itself, is meaningless. It expresses something, but it says nothing. Does music always need to say something? I believe sometimes nothing needs to be said at all. Santa Maria says nothing, because there's nothing to be said. The imagery is there: it's a snapshot of a moment, a photography of an important historical landmark. That is the purpose.

The Millennium Bell never intended to be a statement on anything. It is a celebration. There is no commentary going on. Of course, it's often hard for us to distance ourselves enough not to see our own biases and beliefs reflected on the music, so we see things that aren't there at all. And that's the danger: aren't we attributing to the artist something that is actually ours? So...

Quote
With "Santa Maria" all is not as it first seems to me, and there are contradictions in the mood - something doesn't add up.


Well, the whole album always sounded extremely straightforward in its intentions to me. I don't sense any ambiguities in it.

Quote
Btw, if Mike is a guy who is capable of feeling and expressing his full range of emotions, I don't get how he is "absolutely shallow"?


As I said, "emotions" don't mean anything without a cause, a reason.


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wiga Offline




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Posted: Oct. 07 2010, 07:56

Here's "Santa Maria".

My original observation;  I am getting Roman Catholic connotations: -

1. I hear a choir boy singing a prayer or hymn.

2. I hear a male voice choir singing the same prayer or hymn.

3. It sounds like a a repetitious prayer.

4. The words "Santa Maria" have a Catholic theme.

Later on, I am going to talk about my observations on the mood....


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