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Topic: Mike really doesn't like...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Priabonia Offline




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Posted: Jan. 23 2017, 11:19

...Incantations does he?

Listening to the BBC Radio 6 programme ("The First Time With...") kindly spotted by Korgscrew, he says at around 48" "[after Ommadawn] ... I was pressured into working again, and I made, hmm, Incantations, which is not my favourite album at all"

For non-native English speakers, this is basically him saying it's his *least* favourite album! Why, I wonder, as by any objective standard it is a classic, and by the subjective standards of his fans it is right up in the top two or three?!


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mvm Offline




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Posted: Jan. 23 2017, 12:42

I don't know because even for me is a masterpiece (even if a little hmmm too long in some parts of the album, but in general is memorable), maybe it's related to the pressures he speaks about, and the fact he was forced to realize it...
However even Hergest Ridge doesn't seem to be his favorite and it's one of most loved...


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First_Excursion Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2017, 01:16

The guy has no idea.

Incantations is gold. Mike should make more music he doesn't like.
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Jesse Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2017, 04:16

uhm i don't like it much either ^^
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pauly Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2017, 04:57

It's not my favourite either. That's not to say it's a bad album but it's a bit too drawn out and complex for me.
I've tried many times over the years to appreciate this album more but it has never really grown on me.
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Holger Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2017, 07:20

Reminds me of what Pierre Moerlen said about it in this interview:

Quote
Q: Which is your favourite Mike Oldfield piece on which you have played?

A: I automatically think about 'Incantations', - the vibes on side four.

Q: That is my favourite piece also!

A: I love that piece, the whole album actually. I know Mike doesn't like it very much, because it's for him a bad... period. I don't think it has much to do with the music itself, it is this period of time - he wants to erase it! It's too late!
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Priabonia Offline




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Posted: Jan. 24 2017, 17:34

I have a theory...possibly controversial. I think at the time (1977/78), Mike was so uninterested (or lacking in ideas?) that his then close friend David Bedford picked up a lot of the slack, and actually contributed far more than he is given credit for (I think only "arranging" the strings, without checking the album cover). There are whole sections which have little of Mike on them (Part Two for example) and could have been written and produced by David with Mike making his contribution in flying visits "back home".

Maybe Mike felt (still feels?) dare I say "Guilty" about the episode...and having never given David sufficient credit? Sadly we can no longer ask the latter...


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Jesse Offline




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Posted: Jan. 25 2017, 05:01

Quote (Priabonia @ Jan. 24 2017, 17:34)
I have a theory...possibly controversial. I think at the time (1977/78), Mike was so uninterested (or lacking in ideas?) that his then close friend David Bedford picked up a lot of the slack, and actually contributed far more than he is given credit for (I think only "arranging" the strings, without checking the album cover). There are whole sections which have little of Mike on them (Part Two for example) and could have been written and produced by David with Mike making his contribution in flying visits "back home".

Maybe Mike felt (still feels?) dare I say "Guilty" about the episode...and having never given David sufficient credit? Sadly we can no longer ask the latter...

that's a lot of speculation...why would you come up with that :P

I think it's 100% mike, just trying out new stuff like always
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Priabonia Offline




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Posted: Jan. 25 2017, 16:47

Quote (Jesse @ Jan. 25 2017, 10:01)
that's a lot of speculation...why would you come up with that

Well, there's this for a start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQmCqhb0vMU

This dates from January 1972...I don't think Mike wrote that opening when he was 19?


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First_Excursion Offline




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Posted: Feb. 09 2017, 02:30

I don't think it's 100% Mike.

The theory has a lot of merit in my opinion. Spookily Incantations in that opening.

Mike admitted in that terrible autobiography that there was at least one other occasion in the not distant future where he was stuck for ideas and relying on his band's input to complete an album. I can't bear to open it again to check the details.

Reckon Tim Cross wrote a chunk of Orabidoo. Ireland's Eye was largely Rick Fenn and Maggie Riley. Pretty sure he had to ask Carl Palmer if he could use Mt.Teide to fill up the rest of Five Miles Out.
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Satyagraha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 09 2017, 06:42

In my opinion, "Incantations" is Oldfield's masterpiece, by far. I am in no doubt, though, that he had much help with the composition, beyond mere arrangement, especially on side 1. The usage and development of the main motif, E–B–A–E–D–A–G—D, which is the base of so much in "Incantations", show the skill of someone trained in classical composition.

It is also worth noting the similarities to Steve Reich's "Music for 18 musicians" (1976). The odd-metre, ever-repeating staccato quavers, the mini-orchestra, the important roles of the vibraphone and marimba, the general mood. I am in no way implying plagiarism nor derivativeness, but I bet Oldfield listened carefully to Reich's groundbreaking piece of music.


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larstangmark Offline




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Posted: Feb. 10 2017, 05:23

I love it to bits, but thinking in "objective terms":

It's very well composed and produced. Some of Mike's early work relies on dark, brooding, murky, diffuse passages and effect as well as some novelty passages (especially in the case of TB). Incantations has clarity and straight-forwardness. Not one detail is buried in the mix or hidden behind a blur of guitar overdubs.

The melodic content is a bit limited. Where Ommadawn is based on small, emotive, folksong-like motifs, Incantations sounds as it was composed through a more intellectual process; "Let's use these notes, how many variations can I do with them?"[I]. More like that. The melodies don't stick right away, but they grow on you and has a flow that makes you want to keep listening. The composer doesn't worry about the sections and motifs wearing out their welcome. This came later, starting with Platinum. Music that aims to entertain, that is restless. That bursts into something new after a minute or two. This became Mike's modus operandi after Incantations, culminating with Amarok - an album shock-full of surprises. In a way TSODE was return to Incantations (not in a good way, but still...).

Objectively I think Incantations is one of Mike's best albums. It's well realized composition. More like a painting than a piece of music. Like the long section with the guitar solo in part 3 - it just flows and you just forget that there is another of section coming up.

As a Mike Oldfield record it's a one-off. There is a classical minimalist influence, which is very far from where Mike it at normally. He's a...maximalist?

:laugh:


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Priabonia Offline




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Posted: Feb. 10 2017, 10:50

Good debate all, I thought it had gone quiet. Since posting I also found this (there was an old reference to it from someone on this very forum):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhCgtCH9H7s

Listen around 4'40" onwards

This was released in 1971, Mike was 18...

I agree absolutely about Reich's "18 Musicians"


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Priabonia Offline




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Posted: Feb. 10 2017, 10:52

Quote (larstangmark @ Feb. 10 2017, 10:23)
Incantations has clarity and straight-forwardness. Not one detail is buried in the mix or hidden behind a blur of guitar overdubs.

Not *strictly* true...have a listen to the guitar solo section of Part Three (i.e. the marimba bit, before the guitar itself comes in). I might post some filtered/slowed down/Mid/Sides files if I have a minute, but there's actually a lot going on in that section than immediately meets the ear (there is a subtle guitar arpeggio, and the bass is widdling away merrily in the background too)

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TubularRidgeDawn Offline




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Posted: Feb. 10 2017, 19:57

I love Incantations, and I think it is one of Mike's masterpieces. Mike Oldfield has always loved to experiment with music, a lot like the classical masters, and this is quite an experimental piece. Very classically structured and composed, and although quite repetitive in places it is full and round, and beautiful. Like Hergest Ridge, another masterpiece with classical vibes,  maybe he was pressured to make Incantations and it was not a good time for him, that's why he dosen't like it so much, but the pressure seemed to have brought the best out in him.

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Liquid Friend Offline




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Posted: Dec. 16 2019, 05:37

Quote (Priabonia @ Jan. 25 2017, 22:47)
Well, there's this for a start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQmCqhb0vMU

This dates from January 1972...I don't think Mike wrote that opening when he was 19?


Well spotted, Priabonia, both your YT-links. Very interesting.


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Dec. 16 2019, 06:25

It's probably like Bach's music: the more musical theory you know the more you're likely to get out of it. Somewhere along the line, though, I suspect musical theory goes wildly wrong, because its logical development has led to the likes of Stockhausen. And even though I quite like Stockhausen's Sirius, I find most of the music of his that I have heard noisy and dull. (It might not even be "somewhere along the line"; it may simply be a slippery slope, like trying to decide a baby becomes a child.)
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omgmo Offline




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Posted: Dec. 16 2019, 19:13

Quote (nightspore @ Dec. 16 2019, 06:25)
the more musical theory you know the more you're likely to get out of it


Really? I thought musical theory (and theories in general) follow experience.

You don't need to know musical theory to enjoy good music. (Or, do you need not to know? :laugh: )

The experience of music can only be poorly described in words.

Incantations is the most difficult work of MO, the most outworldy, I think. Much different than anything else he has done, even the first instrumental albums. The reason he doesn't like it is because he had an awful time back then.
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Thea Cochrane Offline




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Posted: Dec. 27 2019, 07:25

It was around this time that Mike did Exegesis wasn't it?

That's quite a traumatic thing to put yourself through; working with the music so intensely during that time, then spending time touring it at some length and playing it every night must have really tied it in to that time mentally for him.

So I do think it's more the other stuff happening in his life at that time and not the music itself.
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bluemlein Offline




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Posted: Sep. 05 2020, 18:14

incantations is fiendishly difficult, based on the circle of fifths. it's entirely possible that this sprang out of oldfield's head simply by virtue of his having heard and - consciously or not -analyzed it, developing it by sheer experimentation and repetition.

this is a very strictly mathematical work that is given a lot of life by the ornamentation especially of the flutes at the beginning. yes, hiawatha is long but i dare anyone who thinks it is too long or too monotonous to sit still during gavin bryars' "jesus's blood".

for myself i quite like it. during preparations for a failed project i listened many times to it, on earphone. i can tell you every glitch and squawk - but they do not detract. it is pointless to overwork something to the point of technical perfection if it drubs the life out of it.
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