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hairy old hippy Group: Members Posts: 304 Joined: July 2005 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 09:33 [Yes, if we were all considerate people, with a selfless attitude that cared what other people thought, then yes it'd be fine. But how many smokers do you think will actually want to stand out in the rain just because their partner doesnt like the smell of their addiction? ] (sorry. haven't sussed out the quote thing yet) I guess that's my point, I can't imagine smokers wanting to go outside as a matter of consideration (well maybe some), but I can imagine non smokers inhaling smoke in order that the smoker not have to endure a little cold, that's what we've been doing for years isn't it? Having said all that, I am a little bit in both camps. Before the ban came in I said to my friends; on the one hand smoking ruins a night down the pub for me but on the other; I don't want to see peoples rights diminshing. In balance though, the joy smokers gain from smoking is outweiged by the misery and pain caused by lung cancer directly and passively. I believe it is one's right to do want they want to themselves but not to each other and I think it's sad that we need to be told this by some authority. Because of lack of community  power and freedom is given up willy nilly to sort out problems. This extends to the aforementioned 'chav' situation. They are people (yes people!). If they are dealt with as such, I am sure you will find they are ordinary people with as much potential as anyone else. Like every generation before them though they are like sheep so act as a group rather than a group of individuals. I don't think they are any different to the mods, teddy boys, punks or whatever alse before them. However, the whole situation is exagerated in order to divide us. Together we are strong, divided we are easy to control. With a situation apparently 'out of control' we all plead for tougher laws and hey presto we lose our freedoms and rights (and also rockstars to other countries!) So next time you have an opportunity to talk with a 'chav' be nice to them, you never know they might extend the hand of friendship to you just before they punch you in the face and knick your car. -------------- Listen to Mohribold; an epic musical tapestry that weaves between a multitude of genres. Andrew Taylor's Mohribold album has proved very popular with fans of symphonic-rock, prog-rock, psych-folk and indeed Oldfield's classic albums! www.andrewtaylor.bandcamp.com Back to top

hairy old hippy Group: Members Posts: 304 Joined: July 2005 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 10:00 ps I can't help feeling that something else must have happened to inspire Mike to move, was he actually fined maybe? It just seems a bit trivial without more of a catalyst. Also, anyone gutted at the delay of music of the spheres might want to listen to latest David Bedford cd I just got. It's called Alleluia Timpanis, Symphony No 1, Recorder Concerto, Twelve Hours. He's with the BBC Symphony Orchestra and the Crouch End Festival Chorus. It is brilliant, all classical and is filling the hole left where music of the spheres was going to go. -------------- Listen to Mohribold; an epic musical tapestry that weaves between a multitude of genres. Andrew Taylor's Mohribold album has proved very popular with fans of symphonic-rock, prog-rock, psych-folk and indeed Oldfield's classic albums! www.andrewtaylor.bandcamp.com Back to top

ian Group: Members Posts: 473 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 10:20 Quote on the one hand smoking ruins a night down the pub for me but on the other; I don't want to see peoples rights diminshing. Like the right to avoid compulsory passive smoking? Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 10:32 Quote (TOBY @ Oct. 22 2007, 03:55) But as far as measuring the pros and cons of the smoking ban and speed cameras is concerned - come up with the realistic cons and I'll gladly listen Quote I think the smoking ban is a reflection of our continued reliance of government over community. We seem to be so disjointed from one another, (I know the names of six fictional characters living in appartments in New York but not the names of my next door neighbours). Why can't smokers simply ask "does anyone mind if I smoke?" and if the answer is no then smoke, if the answer is "yes I'm afraid I might get lung cancer" then the smoker take that into consideration and smoke outside. And there we have it, we are looking after each other, we are taking the inititive, not being led by some ponce in a suit who doesn't know the price of milk or the names of six fictional characters living in appartments in New York. That's basically it: people letting the government control them over everything. We know where that leads. Anyway, in a less alarmist note; I think you misunderstood what I meant with "indirect" harm. Truth is, if people are being harmed by passive smoking, do they really need a GOVERNMENT to help them? Are they under gunpoint or anything? Can't they speak out their minds? Ask for a bit of consideration? Do something about it? If people accept such things and stay quiet, gee, maybe they have some responsibility over it. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

gbcrvh Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: June 2006 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 10:57 I think smoking ban is just media crap - I do not believe that was Mike's primary or secondary reason to leave.  We know many many artists who simply left UK just because of tax and Mike might not be an exception.  I would love to see Mike quit smoking, but if he really feels he should leave one country because of smoking ban then I'm disappointed.  And knowing media... I would say that's more media taking out of context whole thing... Back to top

ian Group: Members Posts: 473 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 12:36 I just don't know how he has the energy to keep moving house with his poor family. I also think there is more to it than just smoking....MMMMMmmmm Back to top

Tati The Sentinel Group: Members Posts: 3360 Joined: Feb. 2002 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 13:17 Miracles do happen,even on brazilian media,where Mike is not known,the story has appeared,the stuff is HUGE   -------------- "But it's always the outsider, the black sheep, that becomes the blockbuster." - Mike Oldfield, 2014 "I remember feeling that I'd been judged unfairly and that I was going to prove them wrong." - Peter Davison, 2011 Back to top

Blue Dolphin Group: Members Posts: 1232 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 16:37 I TOTALLY agree with TOBY's comments here! I laughed my head off when I read the news about Mike leaving the UK... again! His reasons: because of the banned smoking! I mean, jeez, he just build a new freeking studio!! Most of the times I agree with Mike's opinions on things, but this time it's totally the opposite. To quote Mike here about a "harmless roll-up": well, I want to hear him say that again when he has cancer or something. The fact that so many restaurants and cafe's/pubs are smoke free is a personal relief for me too. I hate the filthy stuff, and it's almost criminal making your fellow human sick with passive smoking. But the one thing I really can't stand what smokers say, when arguing about the smoking ban, is that the goverment gets the blame of being too "nanny" etc. etc. While I agree that the goverment can be a pain in the arse... I wonder: DO people realize that when everybody stops with smoking, health insurance cost are going down, and hospitals won't have to cope with a lot of diseases anymore? Sometimes I'm so very amazed with the human species, that people can't think over such a simple fact. I think Mike's behavior lately is a mixture of old hippy and conservative thoughts. He wants to smoke everywhere, wants to feel safe in his big house, but at the same time complains about the cameras which are there for people's protection. By the way, I've heard that the smoking ban in restaurants/pubs will be across Europe in the near future too. It wouldn't suprise me if Spain is included. -------------- -The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it- Mike Oldfield - 1980 Back to top

Blue Dolphin Group: Members Posts: 1232 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 16:41 And if people really can't stand giving up smoking, there's always this: Super Smoker You see Mike, just buy one of those, and you won't have to miss England! -------------- -The mark of a good musician is to play one note and mean it- Mike Oldfield - 1980 Back to top

olracUK Group: Members Posts: 1683 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 18:43 I suppose it could just be Fanny's idea? Somewhere closer to family with a (possibly) difficult birth ahead? And, to be honest, if I had the odd few million quid, I'd be right on the plane behind him. Sure, England has it's scenery, it's history. But it also has the grey skies, the rain (and not even proper rain, just drizzle), the rubbish blowing around the streets. What this country has lost is the basic sense of fairness, of natural justice. Youngsters have lost an understanding of Ownership - if it isn't theirs it isn't anybodies. I told some kids off for petty damage, their reply - "what's your problem, it aint yours so piss off". When I was a kid we played ball in the street. If we hit a car, we ran away 'cos we knew it was wrong. Now they just laugh and run onto your property to get the ball back. So, I don't think Mike was reported correctly, or that he expressed himself fully. He isn't off just because of smoking bans ( I smoke and appreciate how annoying/smelly/dangerous it is), or just because a little old lady can't weed some flowers on the village green. It's all that and more. ermm... I'll be on "Grumpy Old Men" next week... -------------- The answer is 42 - but what is the question? Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 18:48 Quote (Navaira @ Oct. 22 2007, 06:39) Hihihi, I wonder how that went through with Universal reps. "Hello, I know, yeah yeah, there's an album I put together, you know, I can't really promote it now you know? I need to move. Yes, it's because of a very important reason. Awfully important. See this smoking ban? I can't cope with that, not at all. Yeah, sorry you'll miss out on the Christmas market but you understand me right? Hallo? Hallo?" Good post. A general point - this is all a difficult debate because obviously there's people here from all over the world and everyones perceptions of each other cultures is different. Sir M - I take your point about taking things into your own hands. However if I went for a night out in Glasgow, before the smoking ban, and politely asked someone if they ever so minded putting their fag out the very best I could hope for is a punch in the face. At the very worst I would be stabbed, I'm kind of not kidding here. So unfortunately for that reason, and others,  people do need the government to help them, there does need to be a safety net for society. In the UK at least society has deemed it unacceptable to smoke in public. The cost in lives and financially on our health care system caused by smoking related illness is just ridiculous. All the money that can now be saved from treating less lung cancer patients can now be spent on treating unaviodable ones  like breast cancer and prostate cancer, not to mention others. Maybe people like Mike should consider that sort of thing before they spout there ever so high narrow minded principles. Back to top

Tati The Sentinel Group: Members Posts: 3360 Joined: Feb. 2002 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 22:14 Quote (olracUK @ Oct. 22 2007, 20:43) So, I don't think Mike was reported correctly, or that he expressed himself fully. He isn't off just because of smoking bans ( I smoke and appreciate how annoying/smelly/dangerous it is), or just because a little old lady can't weed some flowers on the village green. It's all that and more. Of course there are more reasons for him to leave England! -------------- "But it's always the outsider, the black sheep, that becomes the blockbuster." - Mike Oldfield, 2014 "I remember feeling that I'd been judged unfairly and that I was going to prove them wrong." - Peter Davison, 2011 Back to top

Tati The Sentinel Group: Members Posts: 3360 Joined: Feb. 2002 Posted: Oct. 22 2007, 22:20 Quote (TOBY @ Oct. 22 2007, 20:48) In the UK at least society has deemed it unacceptable to smoke in public. The cost in lives and financially on our health care system caused by smoking related illness is just ridiculous. All the money that can now be saved from treating less lung cancer patients can now be spent on treating unaviodable ones  like breast cancer and prostate cancer, not to mention others. Maybe people like Mike should consider that sort of thing before they spout there ever so high narrow minded principles. Mike should quit smoking as soon as possible.His health would be very pleased,IMHO. Recently the brazilians have lost a well-known and loved actor,and his widow said on public that one of his last words were that he died because of the cigarrettes he used to smoke,as an alert regarding the health problems related to smoking. Gosh,what would happen if Spain bans smoking in other public places,ta da,Mike moves to another country where he can smoke wherever he wants! -------------- "But it's always the outsider, the black sheep, that becomes the blockbuster." - Mike Oldfield, 2014 "I remember feeling that I'd been judged unfairly and that I was going to prove them wrong." - Peter Davison, 2011 Back to top

christopher Group: Members Posts: 270 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: Oct. 23 2007, 00:59 Here is the saddest part of all this... England is becoming America!!!  I am an American who really hates what we have become since 9/11.  We are a panic ready society with hugely diminishing freedoms and rights!  Yes the UK has CCTV cameras and yes it is an invasion of privacy and yes it also is a lifesaver.  Our government is legally or as the people see it illegally spying on us and using the war on terror as their excuse!   I love England and everything it has to offer! BUT, becoming more like the US is less than flattering and not advised!  America is going to be a very interesting place in the next ten years and our society gets turned upside down!  Unfortunately, we are in for a really big awakening!  I was part of 9/11...in I was in the air over DC and I'm a flight attendant who was incharge of whole plane of people that morning and was called to the cockpit to be told what was going on in NYC.  I was hoping that 9/11 might have woken up this country, but instead has just become another day of rememberance and nothing more. As for smoking in public... there are two sides.  I see both and I side with both.  Yes, people should be able to smoke in public as their free right.  However, science and health research has shown the effects of this on the person smoking and the people who happen to be within breathing distance.  The research shows that it is harmful.  We should be in the mindset of doing no harm to others and smoke can do harm.  Doesn't mean that necessarily everyone is in that mindset. As for Mike leaving to lack of freedoms and constant Big Brother... well... actually I say good!!!  It takes someone standing up and saying NO! You won't take away my freedoms... not now, not ever, that changes the world!!!  Sadly, America has lost its ability to fight back and so here we are 6 years later oblivious to our future if we don't change our current direction! Mike moving is a message to all.  Your freedoms are being taken from you subtly at first and then BAM when you have your back turned and have gotten used to the change! Be warned Europe...don't let go of your freedoms!  Hold onto your identity!  Don't let a US type system destroy what you've built over so many centuries!  The US is NO EXAMPLE of how to run a country these days! Fight back as Mike is doing... don't let anyone take away your freedoms!!! Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Oct. 23 2007, 04:02 Quote [From the article] The 54-year-old musician told The Mail on Sunday: ... etc I'd be extremely hesitant before taking any statement reported by anyone in any newspaper at face value - and my suspicions would most certainly include The Mail on Sunday. It's amazing what a variety of different emphases you can achieve merely by quoting selectively. I can certainly understand that MO would be troubled by the absurd intrusiveness of certain aspects of modern British society. I'm troubled by those things myself. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if the emphasis on the smoking issue in that article has effectively been created by selective quoting. Back to top

gbcrvh Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: June 2006 Posted: Oct. 23 2007, 04:07 Quote (christopher @ Oct. 23 2007, 06:59) Fight back as Mike is doing... don't let anyone take away your freedoms!!! People are such beasts they should not be allowed freedom whenever they can use that freedom to harm others. Back to top

hairy old hippy Group: Members Posts: 304 Joined: July 2005 Posted: Oct. 23 2007, 05:56 People will harm others freedom or no freedom if you ask me. In evolutionary terms we are animals really. We all exist today as a result of our ancestors surviving by being stronger than another. We are the result of do or die, it is part of us, whether we like it or not. Having said that, maybe we have reached a level of intelligance aware enough of itself to 'step back' as it were. Another problem, maybe the biggest, with the 'nanny state' and losing our freedoms issue is this. You can 'always' justify a law or an invasion of privacy, like cctv. WE know bad stuff happens all the time. But when the media hypes up these crimes and issues WE are the ones who call for tougher laws and cctv. This is happening more and more, the level of surveilance and police power maybe HUGE in say, 15-20 years and beyond. Imagine it, all that power slowly moving upward, and then some extreme government gets in who wants to control our every move. All the infrastucture will be in place already for them to do what they want and see what they want and that will be justified and within law to do so. Think about it, they could ALMOST do it now. Say for example I wanted to protest about the government on a particular day or event. If the government can see all and know all, they could bring me in on a smoking in public charge and in doing so supress my political expression against them. I think with Mike, maybe the smoking ban aspect of what he said was emphasised by the media. After all, it is a current hot topic here in the UK. "Mike leaves UK over health and safety" just doesn't read well does it. To be fair to him, he mentioned a lot of things in the article, this gave me the feeling that a general loss of freedom made him move. Lets face it, the man is minted, he can afford to go wherever and whenever he wants. That freedom (!) must offer you a different perspective on the world! -------------- Listen to Mohribold; an epic musical tapestry that weaves between a multitude of genres. Andrew Taylor's Mohribold album has proved very popular with fans of symphonic-rock, prog-rock, psych-folk and indeed Oldfield's classic albums! www.andrewtaylor.bandcamp.com Back to top

Ratty Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: Jan. 2005 Posted: Oct. 23 2007, 09:13 But where does all this PC Madness stop? I am a lover of real ale, i love a pint as much as anyone, many of my friends loved a cig with their pint. This smoking ban has killed the traditional pub atmosphere. People dont socialise anymore because of these crackpot government directives. As a non smoker it never bothered me if people were smoking in the bar but it just looks shoddy with groups of peope stood on the street smoking. The age old debate is begining to rumble here, what kills more people smoking or drinking? How long is it before drinking is banned? Yes, it seems ludicrous now but if you would have said to anyone 10 years ago, "do you know you wont be able to smoke anywhere in England in 10 years time"  They would have thought you insane. I think Mike has had enough of the whole politic correctness issue in this country like many others. There is too much pandering to the wishes of lilly livered liberals, the do gooders who dont want anyones human rights infringed!!! Ordinary folk in England have become second class citizens..you get mugged or burgled, god help you if you protect yourself, you`ll be sued by the criminal. Run someone over while disqualified and without insurance, under the influence and you get less of a sentence than a persistent parking offender. Most of us are out working for a living all day, as a family support worker it makes my blood boil when i have to help able bodied men 18-25 years of age to claim as many benefits as possible because they claim to have ADHD or something. Do you know how they refer to receiving their benefits? "getting paid" and i have to bite my tongue. So yes, you may think these examples are extreme but the smoking issue is just the tip of the iceberg and things are not going to get much better for a long time. Drink anyone!! -------------- Far away across the field The tolling of the iron bell Calls the faithful to their knees To hear the softly spoken magic spells Back to top

Martina Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: July 2007 Posted: Oct. 23 2007, 09:14 Personally, I think Mike should stop smoking in the first place and then move to Spain if he would. I would not be much happy to hear that MOTS will have been the last MO album beacuse of a serious disease. I was really glad to see him in England again, because I believe he got used to some musical styles in Spain that I don't like at all. He should have remain a rocker with his unique flavour on top - as he was in early 80s. He could have done more excellent lengthy and complex compositions as Amarok was. Though I like every MO album as he is able to twist any musical style into his own view, I really don't like his movement from guitar to that electronic sounds. Why the hell a musician of his calibre should keep trying to do what any wannabe-DJs can do on their home computers? That's why I was happy he seemed to be fed up with the clubs in Spain and moved to the nice greeny-grassy England, to his celtic roots. But this is just the past - again.   Well, maybe he won't do the same mistakes again...   Back to top

TOBY Group: Members Posts: 1562 Joined: May 2002 Posted: Oct. 23 2007, 13:19 Quote (Ratty @ Oct. 23 2007, 09:13) But where does all this PC Madness stop? I am a lover of real ale, i love a pint as much as anyone, many of my friends loved a cig with their pint. This smoking ban has killed the traditional pub atmosphere. People dont socialise anymore because of these crackpot government directives. As a non smoker it never bothered me if people were smoking in the bar but it just looks shoddy with groups of peope stood on the street smoking. The age old debate is begining to rumble here, what kills more people smoking or drinking? How long is it before drinking is banned? Yes, it seems ludicrous now but if you would have said to anyone 10 years ago, "do you know you wont be able to smoke anywhere in England in 10 years time"  They would have thought you insane. I think Mike has had enough of the whole politic correctness issue in this country like many others. There is too much pandering to the wishes of lilly livered liberals, the do gooders who dont want anyones human rights infringed!!! Ordinary folk in England have become second class citizens..you get mugged or burgled, god help you if you protect yourself, you`ll be sued by the criminal. Run someone over while disqualified and without insurance, under the influence and you get less of a sentence than a persistent parking offender. Most of us are out working for a living all day, as a family support worker it makes my blood boil when i have to help able bodied men 18-25 years of age to claim as many benefits as possible because they claim to have ADHD or something. Do you know how they refer to receiving their benefits? "getting paid" and i have to bite my tongue. So yes, you may think these examples are extreme And put great emphasis on the word 'extreme' there at the end. Generally speaking there are less young people claiming benefit these days than ever before, also the law enabling the criminal to sue is under review with a likely change of law on the way, or so Radio 4 would have me believe. See its not all doom and gloom, though if you subscribe to the Jeremy Clarkson/Mike Oldfield view of the world it obviously is.   But anyway I don't really think this whole debate should disintegrate down onto a left/right political argument, the Tubular.net server would probably crash long before anybody reached any conclusion not to mention people falling asleep out of boredom. Keeping the debate general. Though political correctness is fairly abhorrent I also find the other extreme fairly abhorrent. Middle class people will moan on endlessly about their taxes vanishing off to pay for others needs and the intrusiveness of CCTV and health and safety paranoia. Until that is they need some sort of government benefit themselves ( from the NHS when lung cancer strikes through passive smoking in bars for example) or until they need that vital CCTV footage having just had their 4X4 broken into or indeed when they need to sue their local authority because they slipped on a crack in the pavement  thus fueling the health and safety paranoia that they so despise yet they themselves created in the first place. oops there we go with the politics again...wake up at the back! But yeah I'll join you for that drink Ratty. Mines a liver failingly strong triple Tequila slammer. Cheers Back to top

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