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Topic: Is Tubular Bells all he's ever going to do?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Jesse Offline




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Posted: Mar. 06 2008, 04:18

the thing is that philip glass made it a whole genre to repeat yourself over and over. Also he does it often at the exact same way, just changing the key. (dadada, dadada, dadada, dadada)

When he does it, it's 'wow, so philip glass'. When Mike does it; An artist that gave us like what, 24 albums?! (that are different in genre, feel, orchestration, instrumentation, style and production), you'd think that out of all artist he has the right to sometimes do something that resembles an early work.

I mean, Chopin all ever did piano works. Mike is one of the artists with the most broad musical horizon I've heard.
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tranquilinho Offline




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Posted: Mar. 06 2008, 19:03

MOTS has some obvious quotes, but other than that I feel it very refreshing (even more when compared to preceding works like Tres Lunas).

I like it a lot and I think it means a return to the creativity of Mike's "classic" albums. I hope this album means a starting point for him to achieve even higher levels of creativity.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Mar. 06 2008, 21:46

Quote (Jesse @ Mar. 06 2008, 04:18)
When he does it, it's 'wow, so philip glass'. When Mike does it; An artist that gave us like what, 24 albums?! (that are different in genre, feel, orchestration, instrumentation, style and production), you'd think that out of all artist he has the right to sometimes do something that resembles an early work.

You know, actually, self-repetition is a very common complaint with many, many, many artists. Mike Oldfield is not some scapegoat for evil musical tyrants.

Besides, the fact that he already released more than twenty albums is an aggravating factor to him - after all the exploration of genres and styles he promoted, all he can do now is retreat to his safe spot, the surefire way to be recognised and earn the bucks. He's human - there's no reason to act like he can never do no wrong. I don't see why he should keep on burying his own grave with his old 1973 riff, and we should give him support just because he's allegedly a genius.


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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 01:55

I read something about this somewhere.......but MO mentioned the TB piano hammering for MOTS, and how people say he rips himself off too much, and that this is who he is....whatever. I thought MOTS was better than light+shade. I'm really not a fan of orchestra, more "orchestrated rock", but it is better than his last 2 efforts fer sure. Dude's got the right to rip himself off, but this needs to be the *absolute last* time with the TB piano. One more time and I think credibility gets stretched. This shammy was wringed for all it was worth. Put it to bed now. Sleep well TB. But MOTS gets a thumb up from me.

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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 02:40

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Mar. 07 2008, 02:46)
after all the exploration of genres and styles he promoted, all he can do now is retreat to his safe spot, the surefire way to be recognised and earn the bucks.

I don't believe it's a retreat to a safe spot. It's a revisiting of a central theme in order to build on it in a new way, just as he's always done, and just as many, many great artists do. I've given examples already in a post earlier in this thread. I say again - there is simply nothing unusual in this.

Quote
self-repetition is a very common complaint with many, many, many artists

That's kind of the point I'm making, except that the only complaints come from within a 'pop' culture mindset. MO is outside that (or at least, a big part of him is). Here we are with this musical genius who transcends the boundaries, and that has consequences. He's different. He grows like a tree. He has roots. He needs the roots to draw inspiration from, and to grow. All this business about 'repetition' is a misreading of what's going on. It's not repeating. It's revisiting; and that's a very different (and perfectly acceptable, if not essential) artistic process.
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Jesse Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 03:05

I don't think it really was a choice like "oh let's do that again". Sometimes you're just behind the piano and your fingers fall in a similar pattern (which happens all the time if you are not a pro piano player)...maybe he found this new version by accident and in his head heard it develop another way?

the point is, you can rationalize it to death. But the actual music to me sounds very fresh and enjoyable if you just let that initial reacion ("not another TB theme!") go.
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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 03:25

Sure Sir M, you have a point, but there's also reason to believe that many people's contempt for Mike's "recycling" of old themes, such as the TB introduction, is enough to make them depreciate his other work too. It's not hard to imagine someone listening to Harbinger and immediately dismissing the whole album as a work of a man who has ran out of ideas. This obviously upsets many fans who see tracks like TB, Sentinel, The Source of Secrets and Harbinger as much more than recycling, as separate works with their own musical ideas and MotS as something new and unique.
We, the fans, are experts on MO's music (and indeed often on other kinds of music too) and we see a lot of real passion in it, honesty - not recycling. Of course we are subjective to some extent, but you might as well say that it's the critics that can't see the forest for the trees. Of course there's no right or wrong here, but I don't see why we should not support him. After all there are other real reasons for supporting him, other than his
"genius" status.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 12:45

Quote (Alan D @ Mar. 07 2008, 02:40)
That's kind of the point I'm making, except that the only complaints come from within a 'pop' culture mindset. MO is outside that (or at least, a big part of him is). Here we are with this musical genius who transcends the boundaries, and that has consequences. He's different. He grows like a tree. He has roots. He needs the roots to draw inspiration from, and to grow. All this business about 'repetition' is a misreading of what's going on. It's not repeating. It's revisiting; and that's a very different (and perfectly acceptable, if not essential) artistic process.

Maybe that's what I would say... if I didn't know about his thirst for fame and recognition that leads him to use the musical motif not as a theme, but as a brand, a common-place, a watermark in pieces that don't even have anything to do with Tubular Bells at all (Quicksilver, Harbinger). Come on, we were all here when they changed the Light and Shade cover to show two tubes, instead of a white ring. What is that other than marketing? He never needed that until Tubular Bells II came out, and in fact, it only became chronic five years later, with Tubular Bells III. If he needs his roots, he has a pretty vast legacy - but apparently, he only has Tubular Bells, which, incidentally, is his best selling record by far. No, I don't think that's a coincidence. He knows the business side of music too well to claim ingenuity.

Quote
Sure Sir M, you have a point, but there's also reason to believe that many people's contempt for Mike's "recycling" of old themes, such as the TB introduction, is enough to make them depreciate his other work too. It's not hard to imagine someone listening to Harbinger and immediately dismissing the whole album as a work of a man who has ran out of ideas.


And that's exactly what I mean with digging one's own grave. We're talking about a pop mindset? We sure are. Mike is entirely inserted into that context, and out of his own pure will, not because anyone forced him into it. There's nothing wrong or evil with using the pop mindset to your own benefit. There's a band who's willing to make an incredibly lush, refined and high-brow rock album and start it off with nothing but a two note "Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah" (The Flaming Lips, At War With the Mystics). Sounds awful in theory, excellent in practice. Now, imagine if they kicked it off with a clone of She Don't Use Jelly... Sometimes, it is better to avoid insisting in your mistakes. If he thinks he'd be neglecting his identity, well, that's how life is: you give up something in order to get something else.


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 15:04

If there were no other people except Mike on this planet, what would he play?(if anything). You do have a good point, he is of course in many ways a product of errrrr.. what's the word, the world? society? just like all of us. He hasn't created his own mind entirely by himself, like a god. And yes, he wants recognition, like all of us. If the circumtances would have been different, he'd most likely be playing totally different tunes (well, maybe not totally). However, all this doesn't mean that he's a puppet of some kind. There are loads of people out there who'd love to be famous and respected just for the sake of being famous and respected. I believe Mike is not like many of them, perhaps he wants to be recognised for what he really is. It's not like he doesn't understand that people might think badly about what he's about to do next, still, he does it anyway. Could it be possible that, despite all the pressure and impact that the public might have on a person, he actually loves the tunes he plays?
I believe he does, and to me, it's audible.  But then again, many people feel the same way about P. Diddy and Britney Spears.



:zzz:  :D
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 16:21

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Mar. 07 2008, 17:45)
Maybe that's what I would say... if I didn't know about his thirst for fame and recognition that leads him to use the musical motif not as a theme, but as a brand, a common-place, a watermark in pieces that don't even have anything to do with Tubular Bells at all (Quicksilver, Harbinger).

Well, that's clearly how you see it, Sir M.  But to see the Tubular Bells theme (and other examples of that recurring type) as no more than a brand is to fail to understand how a lot of great art works. I'm not saying there isn't a whole marketing package running alongside all this - of course there is, because we're talking about the modern music industry. But beneath all that there is something far more important going on. To suggest that 'Harbinger' doesn't have anything to do with Tubular Bells is to miss a huge part of the significance of MO's artistic journey. I keep saying it to the point of tedium, but the really interesting part of Mike Oldfield, for me, has always been the part that transcends pop culture, and the continual revisiting of Tubular Bells is the same kind of thing as Cezanne's continual revisiting of Mont St Victoire, or Constable's revisiting of the Stour Valley. These things are so integral to the way many great artists work, that it (seriously) seems to me quite ordinary - certainly nothing to warrant ridiculing, or being cynical about. Yes, there has always been a chunk of MO that hangs out in the 'pop' side of things. But it doesn't make sense to think that's basically what drives him, in the face of the truly great music we've heard down the years.

Quote
Come on, we were all here when they changed the Light and Shade cover to show two tubes, instead of a white ring. What is that other than marketing?

Of course it's marketing. But it doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. That's just a bit of packaging, and of no more significance than the enormous number of Elgar CDs that have a photo of the Malvern Hills on their cover. That's marketing too. It has no bearing on the issue of the originality of the music.

Quote
We're talking about a pop mindset? We sure are. Mike is entirely inserted into that context, and out of his own pure will, not because anyone forced him into it.

Well, I can't make any sense of this. There's nothing wrong with the pop mindset, as I've said before, but you do have to be able to recognise its limitations, if you're to have any chance of understanding an artist as complex as Mike Oldfield. You know that as well as I do, Sir M. But maybe you were just having one of those high-pressure-steam-blow-offs of yours, here, and perhaps my best response is just to duck!
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Marky Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 18:14

Quote (Alan D @ Jan. 25 2008, 09:50)
Quote (Marky @ Jan. 24 2008, 23:51)
I've no idea what any of you are talking about - have you heard this album or something? I'm waiting for the 17th here folks...this thread is a bit off putting to be honest. I just want to know if the comedian is funny, not if his jokes are told in a similar style to the ones he told last year....and anyway, concede all the points made, how much does it matter, really?

A lot of this thread turned out to be not specifically about MOTS, but about the general principle of an artist continuing to re-use old ideas. I find that quite interesting to think about (which is why I wrote so much here), though I don't think it 'matters' any more or less than any other topic we discuss on Tub.net, Marky.

You are a tiny bit condescening arn't you, Alan.
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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 19:18

Not again... please no more pointless bickering...

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Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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Marky Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 19:55

'Pointless bickering'? We don't do that here on Tubular.net,  Arron.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 20:09

Quote (Alan D @ Mar. 07 2008, 16:21)

Maybe I'm bad at reading between the lines, but if there's one thing I don't think Alan has ever been is condescending.

Quote
Well, that's clearly how you see it, Sir M.


And I swear to goodness I'm trying to be as objective as I can. If I allowed myself the pleasure of subjectivity, I'd probably try to be a lot more apologetic about it.

Quote
But to see the Tubular Bells theme (and other examples of that recurring type) as no more than a brand is to fail to understand how a lot of great art works.


Crises is, to me, a piece that makes a very good use of the Tubular Bells motif. I also think the Taurus sequence has an interesting underlying thread (though I fiercely dislike Taurus II from beginning to end, as I've said elsewhere). The resurfacing of Ommadawn into bits of pieces of Amarok gave a pleasant result. And, I'll go to hell for this, but I'll even concede that Tubular Bells II wasn't a bad idea in its essence. But the Tubular Bells overuse is just overkill. It has to do with the amount of times he has done it; it's not the act in itself, but how commonplace and predictable it became. I hope this is well understood now.

Quote
Of course it's marketing. But it doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.


It has! I'm not talking solely about the music, here. Mike Oldfield is more aware than any of us here that image matters, and instead of presenting himself through his name or his history, he stuck to presenting himself through a logo. The cylinders (bent or not) are more easily recognisable than "Mikold-who?". It's a sad fact, and Mike seems awfully conformed with it. The musical motif became pretty much an extension of the logo, so using either is pretty much equivalent (and even more - the basso continuo climax at the end has also became a logo, what with Far Above the Clouds and now Musica Universalis). He just wants people to remember the "Exorcist tune". Maybe he's just tired of trying. I don't think that's good. And the big question here is that the "marketing strategy" (with quotes) might be backfiring - much like repetitive and extra-extra-loud TV commercials.


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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 22:53

Well unfortunatly Sir M I find myself agreeing with almost everything you`re saying there.I say unfortunatly because there are some fantastic sections of pure audio bliss dotted throughout, mots that are sadly forever to be trapped within it`s tubular cell.So it`s a tubular cell for me and a tubular sells from him I guess is what I`m drivng at here.

I have to say this album has wore off very quickly for me,and the bloody thing hasn`t even been released yet.I`m actualy starting to wish Mike had made it into 14 more seperate pieces of music so I could pick out the tracks that I liked more readily.Not that I completely dislike it`s tubular moments btw.It`s similar for me to Paul McCartney wheeling out Hey Jude every time he puts in a special appearence.."Yes Paul,it`s a masterpiece..WE KNOW!!!"...

The saving grace of that particular annoyance is the fact that he`s only doing the thing live.Imo some of Macca`s latest solo work is up there with the best stuff he`s done since he quit The Beatles.So maybe if Mike got himself out on the road there and played his tubular bells to the people that actualy want to hear that kind of thing.Then he maybe wouldn`t feel the urge to put it out on an actual album once every four or five years.Hey it`s just a thought.Who knows it could wind up keeping everybody happy?

One of my all time favourite bands are XTC who quit live touring in 1982,but carried on to make studio albums up untill a few years ago.Now xtc`s songwriter in chief was of course the great Andy Partridge.But he was also very abley assisted by the vastly under-rated Colin Moulding.To a certain extent Moulding`s songwriting sadly seemed to dry up from about the early 90`s onwards.."It gets harder and harder to come up with new ways and ideas to create something new."He was loosely quoted as saying.

Moulding himself put part of that down to not playing live/rehearsing/working with other musicians etc.And the last few songs he wrote which we`re quite entertaining in a charming but harmless way.Primarily concerned themselves with domestic contentment and a sense of well being.That`s how I kind of see Mike Oldfield at the moment.He`s stuck between a sofa and a soft place...Unfortunatly Colin Moulding has now quit the music buisness.

Anyway I`m hoping that my interest in the album might get rejuvinated somewhat when I can finally buy it for real in a couple of weeks.I`m also hoping that Mike get`s some UK sales recognition with this one.And that some of that recognition will go to the man himself,and not just the "corporate logo" to coin your terminology Sir M.Yes I agree that the two are one in the same to a degree.I just feel at the moment that the bells have finally won through.
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Harmono Offline




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Posted: Mar. 07 2008, 23:14

Quote (arron11196 @ Mar. 08 2008, 02:18)
Not again... please no more pointless bickering...

Is debate bad? I like the fact that people talk. What are we, if we don't talk to each other? all this is fertile, i think. I like discussing stuff. Everyone agrees?

btw. Im a little bit tipsy wipsy at the moment :p
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: Mar. 08 2008, 00:31

Heh heh Resistance is fertile I like it.  :D

Or should that be fertiliser? God only knows? Sometimes I`m full of both.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Mar. 08 2008, 04:14

Quote (Marky @ Mar. 07 2008, 23:14)
You are a tiny bit condescening arn't you, Alan.

Marky, I keep re-reading my post, trying to find which part of it makes you think I'm being condescending, and I just can't find anything. Any condescension I might find is towards myself, actually, because I'm effectively saying that I happen to be pretty interested in this, and have written a lot in this thread, but that I know it's not of any special importance. But of course I can't help being interested in the things that interest me, and I do like to talk about them. That's why I use this forum.

So what can I say? I'm sorry you found it condescending, but no condescension was intended - nor, I hope, ever would be in a post of mine - neither to you, nor to anyone else. If you'd like to explain which bit offends you, I'll gladly remove it, reword it, or place a public apology alongside it - whichever you wish.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Mar. 08 2008, 04:37

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Mar. 08 2008, 01:09)
Maybe I'm bad at reading between the lines, but if there's one thing I don't think Alan has ever been is condescending.

Thank you.

Quote
I'll go to hell for this, but I'll even concede that Tubular Bells II wasn't a bad idea in its essence.

If you do, I'll volunteer to speak up on your behalf.

Quote
But the Tubular Bells overuse is just overkill.It has to do with the amount of times he has done it; it's not the act in itself, but how commonplace and predictable it became. I hope this is well understood now.

I guess I ought to stop here, because I'm just saying the same thing over again. But the number of times he has 'done it' is only a problem within pop culture. It isn't a problem outside it. It really is of no importance how many times Cezanne painted Mt St Victoire (it was an awful lot); every one was a genuine fresh exploration. The only problem would be if he were repeating a mindless formula, which he wasn't.

If you were saying that the Tubular-Bells-type motif (I mean musical, not brand symbol) has by now become a mindless formula, then that would be a different kind of discussion. But it wouldn't do justice to Music of the Spheres to describe it in those terms, would it?

Quote
I'm not talking solely about the music, here.

Ah! I am. So I don't really have anything to say about all the marketing stuff - except to point out again that you could say similar things about the over-use of photos of the Malvern Hills on Elgar CDs. Of course the Malvern Hills were a deep source of inspiration for Elgar; but like anything else, the marketing can trivialise the image.
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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: Mar. 08 2008, 06:30

Quote (Harmono @ Mar. 08 2008, 04:14)
Quote (arron11196 @ Mar. 08 2008, 02:18)
Not again... please no more pointless bickering...

Is debate bad? I like the fact that people talk. What are we, if we don't talk to each other? all this is fertile, i think. I like discussing stuff. Everyone agrees?

btw. Im a little bit tipsy wipsy at the moment :p

Debate isn't bad at all. Reasoned conversation is great... it's one of the reasons I stuck around here in the first place, because I enjoyed the company. I hardly think that calling someone condescending is anything less than inflammatory, though.

I mean, even if he was being condescending, which I don't personally think so, but anyway... even if he was, why would you just go out of your way to call on it?

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.... If we're going to have a debate about a topic then great... but please let it remain at least civil.


--------------
Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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