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Topic: Incanted Lyrics< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Inkanta Offline




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Posted: April 26 2000, 10:27

GMOVJ and others were discussing the lyrics in Incantations over on the HR topic.

1) non-words lyrics
2) Diana sections, with only 'Diana, Luna, Lucina'
3) 2 Songs : 'Hiawatha Departure'+'The Son of the Evening Star' at
the end of Part 2 from Longfellow, and 'Ode to Cynthia', sometimes
called 'Hymn to Diana' by some 'Oldfieldians' at the end of part 4.

Which do you consider the non-word lyrics? I've got to go back and resurrect a very old amarok post, but Diana, Luna, and Lucina all refer to the same goddess, the moon. Diana, of course Artemis in Greek mythology, was associated with the hunt, but also with the moon. Hiawatha, interestingly enough, was the son of Nokomis, who was the daughter of the moon in the poem, anyway. It's important to know that Longfellow's Hiawatha is an amalgamation of Ojibwe (Anishinaabeg)and Iroquois (Haudenosaunee)folklore/mythology. I'm not sure without researching further if Nokomis exists in the Anishinaabeg pantheon. There was a real Hiawatha--Haudenosaunee-- who along with the man known as the Peacemaker, forged the League of the Iroquois, on which the US Constitution is based. The Haudenosaunee League is the longest-lived democracy on this side of the planet. BTW, an Ojibwe friend has been tracking down some of the Incantations words in Anishinaabegowin with tribal elders, and isn't finding all of them. Part of the reason may be that the spelling is just too off, and some of the reason may have to do with the cultural genocide experienced by native peoples, which included suppression of their languages. Native children were sometimes beaten to death in boarding schools for speaking their language. OK, enough of Native America 101.
BBTW, don't know if you've noticed, but one of the A. words is mis-sung in Incantations. Know which one? (Hint: it's one of the birds....((-; )

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Cipher Offline




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Posted: May 30 2000, 12:49

Sorry, Mary Carol, but I can't catch the last part of your post... What is mis-sung? And it's related with birds? Yeah, I supose you're just kidding but well, as non-english speaker only in too clear situations I'm able to detect this kind of things, so, please tell me what is all this about...
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Jammer Offline




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Posted: July 24 2000, 20:35

Quite recently I went to an old lady's 95th birthday (before the Queen mum) who I know (the lady, not the queen mother, doh!).

She was remembering a poem which was called "The Wreck of the Hesperus". I took very little interest in this until I realised when she went out to get the book of it, the book was an anthology of Longfellow poems. My eyes lit up when I saw this, but I didn't try to find Hiawatha's departure in it as I wasn't as interested and knew quite little of Incantaions

But the reason why I'm saying this is because the poem in part 4 is written by another bloke, but it mentions the Hesperus which is from a Longfellow poem. That's something to think about
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hergestridge Offline




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Posted: Jan. 26 2013, 15:29

On the subject of mis-sung words, Maddy Prior sings 'Lay the bow of pearl apart', rhyming 'bow' with 'now', when of course it means bow as in archery.
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Sweep Offline




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Posted: Jan. 30 2013, 22:34

I expect this has been cleared up already at some point in the last couple of decades, but it may be worth mentioning because it can be surprising how long mistakes can take to be rectified.

My copy of Exposed lacked the correct credit for `Queen and Huntress Chaste and Fair.' I've never owned the studio Incantations so I don't know if it was given there. This poem is by Ben Jonson. From memory, I think Exposed had two verses in the wrong order as well, but I may be recalling wrongly.


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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: Feb. 03 2013, 19:40

Hi Sweep,

Yes--on the original studio album, Ben Jonson is credited for the "Hymn to Diana" section of Part IV. I couldn't find him credited on Exposed , either, though Mike (or the company! ) does on Exposed credit Longfellow for the "Hiawatha" excerpt.

The order of verses is the same on the studio version of Incantations. as on Exposed -- it's just that neither follows Jonson's poem--Mike's poetic license no doubt. I like what he did with it, though, and think it makes sense within Incantations. In an attempt to translate Jonson's poem to modern English usage, some things are inconsistent, though, which bothers me at times. If "thy" were going to be included, why not consistently? OK....no "why" -- not a question--just a statement that it should have been consistently used. Maybe "thy" went "awry" with the singers. :)

Mike's version:

Ode To Cynthia
Lyrics: Ben Jonson
Vocals: Maddy Prior and Sally Oldfield

   Queen and huntress chaste and fair.
   Now the sun is laid to sleep,
   Seated in a silver chair,
   State in wanted manner keep.

   Earth let not an envious shade
   Dare itself to interpose.
   Cynthia's shining orb was made
   Heaven to cheer when day did close.

   Lay the bow of pearl apart,
   And the crystal-shining quiver,
   Give unto the flying heart
   Space to breathe how short so ever

   Hesperus entreats thy light
   Goddess excellently bright.
   Bless us then with wished sight
   Thou who makes a day of night.

Note: Maybe they say makst, instead, which would have been correct with "thou."

Ben Jonson:

Queen and huntress, chaste and fair,
Now the sun is laid to sleep,
Seated in thy silver chair
State in wonted manner keep:
        Hesperus entreats thy light,
        Goddess excellently bright.

Earth, let not thy envious shade
Dare itself to interpose;
Cynthia's shining orb was made
Heaven to clear when day did close:
        Bless us then with wished sight,
        Goddess excellently bright.

Lay thy bow of pearl apart
And thy crystal-shining quiver;
Give unto the flying hart
Space to breathe, how short soever:
        Thou that mak'st a day of night,
        Goddess excellently bright.

The entire Cynthia's Revels is available via Project Gutenberg at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3771.

Hmm....now what did I mean all those years ago about one of the birds being mis-sung in the Hiawatha section? I am multitasking atm but will post again later! Really. :)


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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: Feb. 03 2013, 20:08

Sorry--I just sooo totally missed this thread! For what it is worth at this point.... the Anishinaabemowin word that Longfellow uses for the white goose is Wawbewawa not WawbewaNa. Now many it sounds better sung with an "n" at the end, but it probably becomes a nonsensical word in Anishinaabemowin. One day in the late 90's, I spent a lunch hour tracking down those words in a dictionary that we had in the library because I didn't know if Longfellow was accurate--was he making up words or did he use actual Anishinaabemowin ones? I found many of them--I can't remember if Wawbewawa was one of them, though.

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"No such thing as destiny; only choices exist." From:  Moongarden's "Solaris."
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Cavalier (Lost Version) Offline




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Posted: Feb. 03 2013, 21:29

Still up watching the Superbowl, and on the subject of mispronunciation an edition of The Wonderful World of Disney alerted me to the fact that we Brits have been getting the main man's name wrong all these years.  I still say 'Higher'watha :D

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oblique Offline




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Posted: Feb. 04 2013, 01:26

I always thought it was pronounced Hee-a-watha.
Probably got it wrong too...


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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: Feb. 04 2013, 17:49

"Hi" (as in hello)- ah-wah-tha.  Orthographies vary, but the real person who was part of Longfellow's amalgamated hero was Aiionwatha (in Oneida)--pronounced ion-wah-tha--he was Iroquois (Haundenosaunee--People of the Long House) -- probably with Onondaga and Mohawk heritage and together with the Peacemaker helped found the League of the Iroquois, or the Great Peace (Onondaga, Mohawk, Seneca, Oneida, Cayuga and later Tuscarora). Longfellow really messed up when he thought Hiawatha was the same person as Manabozho, who was a culture-hero/trickster of the Ojibwe/Anishinaabe people and that he could use that name instead, in his poem.

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Cavalier (Lost Version) Offline




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Posted: Feb. 04 2013, 19:03

Thanks, Inkanta!  So Disney got it wrong too :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP62ptSodd8


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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: Feb. 05 2013, 21:06

Disney often does, Cavalier.  ;)

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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: Mar. 02 2015, 08:24

Well, to add to this, two years later (while looking for something else)......  I cannot find where I ever mentioned how Longfellow came to write "The Song of Hiawatha."  Longfellow was influenced by Henry Schoolcraft, who was a very early ethnologist. Schoolcraft visited and documented many of the indigenous nations of the US. He didn't get everything right, but produced a voluminous set of books, Indian Tribes of the United States.  in the 20th century some native nations used the Schoolscraft volumes to prove that their nations did historically exist.

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Cavalier (Lost Version) Offline




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Posted: May 16 2015, 16:21

I remember Henry Schoolcraft being referenced and revered by George Macdonald Fraser, in his guise as "editor" of the Flashman papers.  I see he was active in the earlies, as the titular character would put it, but in seeing that your remark about Schoolcraft not getting everything right, I'm reminded of Flashy's disdainful opinion of the Apache-speaking academic, whom he observes is representative of those making biased research into native peoples, whilst not realising that the objects of the research might be happy to say anything for the money being thrown about!

That was more about the Britons, of course.  I obviously know next to nothing about where Schoolcraft did err, but perhaps Fraser was making a gentle dig at him was well. ;)


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Inkanta Offline




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Posted: June 06 2015, 17:06

I'd have to go chapter by chapter for the tribes/nations that I know (in the grand scheme, just a handful). One problem that he had was that because he was a man, the woman did not always talk to him, so like with other early ethnographers, there would be bias in that way. And yeah...there could be great sport in telling the ethnographers anything. You really had to spend time and build trust and relationships. And even then, one is looking at the other culture through their own cultural lens--the emic (inside) vs. etic (outside) view.  Always so complicated, eh?

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Cavalier (Lost Version) Offline




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Posted: July 15 2015, 15:40

Quote (Inkanta @ April 26 2000, 10:27)
GMOVJ and others were discussing the lyrics in Incantations over on the HR topic...
           
... 2) Diana sections, with only 'Diana, Luna, Lucina'...
               
...Which do you consider the non-word lyrics? I've got to go back and resurrect a very old amarok post, but Diana, Luna, and Lucina all refer to the same goddess, the moon.
{apologies for the awkward edits}

Here's a complication or two!  This reply might be better suited to another topic from back in the day...
http://tubular.net/forums....;t=5141
... in which the discussion expands to consider the way in which "Lumen" concludes the Diana chants.  I like to think that I've read enough topics here to say that I've not seen the question of the lyrics' origin answered - although as always, my foot is always inches away from my mouth!

When Mike was talking about the re-issue in Record Collector Magazine ( and saying that a cheap druid spent the day at his house! ), he credited a Virgin researcher with sending him a lot of material which he found useful.  I think it's very possible that amongst those was a book, published in 1971, by Valerie Worth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Worth

This Google Books result is from a later edition; The Crone's Book of Magical Words...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?i....f=false

So the verse that Mike originally read may well have been this:

To Be Said in the Dark of the Moon

Though maiden and matron
And crone have passed,
And heavy night
Must reign at last,
Never allow
The Queen to lie
Quenched in her deadly
Slough of Sky -
Summon her powers,
Utter her names,
And she will rise up
Again in flames:

DIANA
LUNA
LUCINA
LUMEN
LUMEN
LUMEN



I'm tapping out at this point - I've no plans to immediately delve into where it was that Ms Worth found the source or inspiration for her incanted poem! ;)


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Feb. 19 2018, 20:34

I see a lot of references to Druidic aspects of this album, but to the best of my knowledge no one has commented on Hindu aspects. For example, unless I'm "cloth-eared" I hear in the choir section of Part 1, repeated quite often, "You Shiva". Given that the song "Shiva" on QE2 was quite soon after I think perhaps I'm not cloth-eared!!  :laugh:
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