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Topic: I don't know why I  don't like it.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
bee Offline




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Posted: April 27 2004, 01:42

The other day I thought I'd put OTB on to see if I still felt the same way about it after many years.  I did, and if anything it was worse. I could not listen to it in it's entirity. (For everything else Mike's done I always allow time to hear every note!;)

It is the only Oldfield album I have that I feel this way about. It makes me sad. I think it just does not work. It has no spirit. Even in the darkest bits of the original there's hope and OTB for me is so grey. It's got all the elements there, but it doesn't flow. It lumbers along and feels contrived. I feel terrible saying this because they are probably all very accomplished musicians. The bells at the end of side one really assault my ears!!!!

So I wanted to know if it is common to feel this way, or do some people love it? And if so why? Am I missing something because I don't want not to like it.

Bee


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MAN IN CRISES Offline




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Posted: April 27 2004, 14:02

I dont like it self.. Its borring
Because orchestarl sound its not my taste  :/
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: May 15 2004, 07:39

Same here, classical music isn't my style. I do agree it misses a certain something. I just does not have that charm that the original has. Nor does is have the amazing guitar solo. Still, I don't really count it as a proper Mike Oldfield album due to the fact that it is an orchestra performing and not Mike.

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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: May 15 2004, 13:20

Orchestral music is right up by alley, so I have no problems with this one. It's not brilliant, but I reckon it must have taken a lot of time and effort from David Bedford because the orchestral arrangement is very faithful to the original. This must have worked better in a live setting, though - the recorded version sounds a bit sloppy, almost like the musicians didn't want to be there at the time!

I file it under "Mike Oldfield & David Bedford", because I think equal merit goes to both of them.


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Guru Meditation Offline




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Posted: Aug. 24 2005, 14:22

I was also a bit dissapointed with this record, actually I was shocked at the very begging. The arpeggio simply doesn't work, and when chords come in it's even worse. It doesn't sound nearly as harmonic as with Oldfield's orignial instruments. Maby it is because musicians were classicaly trained and couldn't get the touch of the thing? Maby...

But I also think this is one more proof that classical music and music that Oldfield produces are different kind of orchestral music. If you call it "ambient", it also goes for other ambientalists. I also heared some JM Jarre's orchestral arrangements (he himself did them this time), and the feeling was very close - something is not quite right, in Jarre's hands symph orchestra seems as some clumsy, half-melodical toying orchestra. It just doesn't work for ambient music.
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: Aug. 24 2005, 14:26

I love OTB, but agree with Bee on the bells, which go "clunk" instead of "clang".

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familyjules Offline




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Posted: Aug. 25 2005, 06:38

Quote (bee @ April 27 2004, 01:42)
It lumbers along and feels contrived.

Well I guess that the idea of doing an Orchestral TB was very contrived.

It's not my bag either - I actually prefer the unreleased Orchestral Hergest Ridge, but David Bedford often leaves me cold.

Having said that I love the arrangement he did for Roy Harper's song Me And My Woman.  That was class.

Jules


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 26 2007, 11:10

Quote (bee @ April 27 2004, 06:42)
It makes me sad. I think it just does not work. It has no spirit.

After reading your comment on this in another thread, Tracey, I decided to give it another listen today. And my response is similar to yours, though I'd describe the effect as depressing, rather than sad. So I've been trying to figure out why.

Back in the days shortly after the Beatles first burst upon the scene, there was a period when bland and mediocre performers would sing specially diluted versions of Beatles songs on TV variety shows. That used to depress me, then. It seemed to so completely miss the point, to take a Beatles recording and squeeze out every last trace of its lifeblood, leaving only the bare tune, and then dress it up in the sanitised, safe, and lifeless harmonies of 'established' performers.

Orchestral Tubular Bells isn't as bad as that, but I think it comes from the same impulse. Tubular Bells itself was groundbreaking. It made no compromises with existing serious musical forms. It took the sounds, rhythms, forms and instruments of rock music and made them into something intellectually satisfying, emotionally complex, and somewhat dangerous. When I say 'dangerous', I mean dangerous to what we might call the 'establishment' view of things, where an electric guitar is just a noise, and not a legitimate form of making serious music.  For example, I remember having a frustrating conversation with someone back in the early 80s who simply couldn't accept that an electric guitar was a serious musical instrument, and who insisted that if MO had been truly a serious composer/musician, he'd have used an orchestra.

Orchestral Tubular Bells taps into this kind of attitude. I don't know what the actual motivation was at the time it was made, but here and now, in hindsight, it smacks of an attempt to tame a potentially wild animal. 'Look,' it says. 'We've made it into serious music at last.' And yes, all the tunes are there, and it all sounds so strangely familiar, but it's not Tubular Bells any more. It's Ersatz Bells for uncomprehending Mums and Dads. It's Sanitised Bells, made safe for those who think serious music can only be made with traditional orchestral instruments. That's why it's depressing. The whole feel of it smacks not of Mike Oldfield, but of something like a film score written by a committee consisting of Malcolm Arnold, David Bedford, and a distant relative of George Gershwin.

I wonder what Mike himself thinks about it, now?
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bee Offline




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Posted: June 26 2007, 18:17

I still feel the same about Orchestral Tubular Bells, and as I feel a little 'blue' at the moment, I'm going nowhere near it!

Interesting to read your thoughts on this too, Alan. I agree with what you say & I also think there's something else present that's harder to describe. Something about the texture. Orchestras bring a smooth, undulating sort of sound. Like an ocean. Heavy And weighted. Tubular Bells has this too but not in such a surrounding sort of way, it's here & there in places and each instrument played has a very clear space of it's own. There are lots of textures throughout. Well, that's the way I hear it. And I like that very much.

I think you are right when you talk of the 'bland and mediocre' renditions of popular songs of the time. I remember Cilla Black & Cliff Richard on their shows on a Saturday evening doing very much the same kind of thing. I used to be desperate for Thursdays when the real artists would perform on Top of the Pops. ( Don't think my ma & pa felt the same as me!!;)) But in one way it is a kind of flattery, to copy. But I have always loved originality...back to Mike again!

As a classical music listener, I don't know loads, but what I do know I love, it puzzles me why I feel this way. Perhaps it should just have been left alone as a classic in it's own class.

What is intriguing is whether I feel the 'classical' music from Mike's forthcoming album makes me wish I could hear it as a multi instrumental piece like the original Tubular Bells. Mirror image kind of thing!

(BTW 'Ersatz Bells' made me laugh, as did 'sanitised bells'. Very funny. ) :D

bee


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The Big BellEnd Offline




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Posted: June 26 2007, 18:21

Just when I thought Alan was'nt go to say it......
he did, film score. It does sound like a soundtrack, in some parts a western soundtrack, but I still like it though I will agree in places it does sound a little laboured.


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 27 2007, 03:32

Quote (bee @ June 26 2007, 23:17)
in one way it is a kind of flattery, to copy.

Well, it can be. Artists like Turner used to copy old masters in order to learn from them. But those bland performers who gave us their soulless versions of rock songs weren't copying them. They were taming them. I don't think I'm suggesting that OTB is as blatantly bad as they were, but I do think there's an element of 'taming' in it - a bit like Brian Epstein dressing the Beatles up in suits.
Quote
What is intriguing is whether I feel the 'classical' music from Mike's forthcoming album makes me wish I could hear it as a multi instrumental piece like the original Tubular Bells.

Do you feel that about Mont St Michel or Lake Constance? I don't. We hear them in the form that they were conceived in, and that feels perfectly right to me. I've just put Lake Constance on now, and here come those exquisite sweeping strings, reminding me again just how very romantically beautiful it is - no feeling of depression, here. This is pure MO, expressing himself in a medium that he chose, not someone else. The difference with the forthcoming new composition is that, whether we like it or not, we will at least be listening to the piece as Mike conceived it.
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larstangmark Offline




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Posted: June 27 2007, 04:30

The beginning of part 2 works nicely. The rest is awful. TB relies heavily on percussive instrumentation, so the whole piece done with an orchestra gives an unpleasant "slowed down" feel.

Orchestra HR works better.


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signinstranger Offline




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Posted: July 13 2007, 16:21

I think it suffers because the orchestration is stodgy and unimaginative. For example, why start the closing riff in the trombones? They really can't move fast enough. Wouldn't bassoons have been better?

It's too bad Bedford couldn't have tried some daring voicings instead of the (then-)standard movie soundtrack orchestrations. Just think if a true master of orchestration -- someone with the ear of Ravel or Stravinsky -- could have tackled it!
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trcanberra Offline




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Posted: Jan. 23 2008, 06:51

Just listened to it a few days ago for the first time in years.  I must say I agree that it seems to be missing something, for me at least.  I love orchestral music but this one seems to be lacking some spark, and only livens up near the end where Mike playes a bit of guitar.
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: Jan. 25 2008, 12:52

There's some nice bits.For example the bit form part2 which on TB is played on acoustic guitar and organ is beautifull on OTB.I'd agree that it doesn't really work as a peice (I don't have the much talked about live version or the OHR)but was this the point?I know Mike himself was never enamoured with it.I think it was David Bedford's pet project more than Mike's.The solo at the end is quite wonderfull though.

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Scatterplot Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2008, 04:11

It sucked. It was a low budget effort with little rehearsal time(it costs money to pay union scale to the players, even when rehearsing). There was an audience, the cheering was edited off the end. Perhaps it was a benefit show. Anyway, I've forgotten it.

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moonchildhippy Offline




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Posted: Feb. 04 2008, 07:53

Quote (trcanberra @ Jan. 23 2008, 10:51)
Just listened to it a few days ago for the first time in years.  I must say I agree that it seems to be missing something, for me at least.  I love orchestral music but this one seems to be lacking some spark, and only livens up near the end where Mike playes a bit of guitar.

I agree that's my favourite part too. OTB just doesn't move me in the same way as the original.



Quote
Alan D Posted on June 26 2007, 15:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (bee @ April 27 2004, 06:42)
It makes me sad. I think it just does not work. It has no spirit.

After reading your comment on this in another thread, Tracey, I decided to give it another listen today. And my response is similar to yours, though I'd describe the effect as depressing, rather than sad. So I've been trying to figure out why.

Back in the days shortly after the Beatles first burst upon the scene, there was a period when bland and mediocre performers would sing specially diluted versions of Beatles songs on TV variety shows. That used to depress me, then. It seemed to so completely miss the point, to take a Beatles recording and squeeze out every last trace of its lifeblood, leaving only the bare tune, and then dress it up in the sanitised, safe, and lifeless harmonies of 'established' performers.

Orchestral Tubular Bells isn't as bad as that, but I think it comes from the same impulse. Tubular Bells itself was groundbreaking. It made no compromises with existing serious musical forms. It took the sounds, rhythms, forms and instruments of rock music and made them into something intellectually satisfying, emotionally complex, and somewhat dangerous. When I say 'dangerous', I mean dangerous to what we might call the 'establishment' view of things, where an electric guitar is just a noise, and not a legitimate form of making serious music.  For example, I remember having a frustrating conversation with someone back in the early 80s who simply couldn't accept that an electric guitar was a serious musical instrument, and who insisted that if MO had been truly a serious composer/musician, he'd have used an orchestra.

Orchestral Tubular Bells taps into this kind of attitude. I don't know what the actual motivation was at the time it was made, but here and now, in hindsight, it smacks of an attempt to tame a potentially wild animal. 'Look,' it says. 'We've made it into serious music at last.' And yes, all the tunes are there, and it all sounds so strangely familiar, but it's not Tubular Bells any more. It's Ersatz Bells for uncomprehending Mums and Dads. It's Sanitised Bells, made safe for those who think serious music can only be made with traditional orchestral instruments. That's why it's depressing. The whole feel of it smacks not of Mike Oldfield, but of something like a film score written by a committee consisting of Malcolm Arnold, David Bedford, and a distant relative of George Gershwin.

I wonder what Mike himself thinks about it, now?


When I worked in the old folks home I once heard the opening bars  of Tubular Bells wafting up thge stairs, but this wasn't  the original, but some "New Age Chill out" cover version, I thought NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! this is NOT how Tubular Bells should sound.  For me Tubular Bells should be exciting,experimental passionate, as in feeling a great deal of emotion,  dangerous, I use the term dangerous to mean adrenaline pumping and  risk taking, and so causing a sense of excitement.  Tubular Bells was risk taking, groundbreaking and innovative   :)  :D , it still makes me think WOW!!!! , even after so many listens.  Like Alan said above about the watered down covers of Beatles songs, again so much of the Beatles' work was innovative and groundbreaking, diluting it just doesn't work.
For me OTB lacks the spark that is present in the original, to me OTB is safe and sanitised, it just doesn't have that excitement, that experimentation, I found that it lacks something, Yep guitars.
Alan you mention Malcolm Arnold above,I know he conducted Deep Purple's Concerto For Group and Orchestra, but as a piece combining rock and classical music this works, as Jon Lord  had been a classically trained pianist from the age of 5.  I think rock and classical music can work well togehter if done correctly.


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Feb. 04 2008, 11:39

Quote (moonchildhippy @ Feb. 04 2008, 12:53)
Alan you mention Malcolm Arnold above,I know he conducted Deep Purple's Concerto For Group and Orchestra, but as a piece combining rock and classical music this works, as Jon Lord  had been a classically trained pianist from the age of 5.  I think rock and classical music can work well togehter if done correctly.

For sure. I wasn't knocking Malcom Arnold (nor indeed Gershwin). I think his English Scottish Dances are terrifc - and definitely not tame. But when his inspiration fails he does have a tendency to slip into what I think of as 'film sound track mode' (by which I mean a safe and established genre), and I suppose it was that that I was referring to.
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: Feb. 13 2008, 05:40

I actually listened to OTB last night and a couple of things are really bugging me.Now we all know about the brilliant solo at the end but....i am sure i hear guitar in a few other places really really low in the mix.The opening theme has a sound mixed with the violins that sounds very like an electric guitar,specifically Mike's distinctive tone of this era.Also in the very beggining of Part 2 i hear a classical guitar playing the opening theme and again playing on the bit preceding the Romantic/Bagpipe bit (originally the organ/acoustic guitar theme).I'm sure i'm not going mad here,or at least no worse than usual.These are very low in the mix and are very hard to pick out but once you hear them i'm sure they are there.

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ThisName Offline




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Posted: Feb. 13 2008, 05:45

Without wanting to sound boastful, I could have orchestrated TB much better. I just don' think the orchestration is any good and hence why most people don't like it. Why oh why did he give the opening piano sequence (the most famous part) to violins (which is awkward and tiring for them) and not to solo piano!!!

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